[IPAndrews]

It's the religion Kara. I know it's hard to believe but it's the truth. There is some extremely nasty stuff in their religious texts. In many ways Islamic "extremists" are just true followers of the religion. It's like calling a Christian who goes to church once a week an extremist. On that score I believe there are potentially a huge number of extremists out there. It's just not all of them are vocal about it.

[Fineus]

Why not deport the BNP at the same time?  I mean, we don't view British citizens as being any less British due to their skin colour or religion, so the BNP are also trying to destroy the country.....unfortunately, we just can't kick out the ****s without destroying the basis of our own freedoms.

Does the BNP follow a religious cause though? Did they come into this country with those beliefs of destruction?

Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know much about the BNP. But I thought they at least originally came from this country and weren't following an apparently holy cause.



This woman however... I imagine her family didn't descend from this country. I'm fairly sure that if I went to America, got a green card and stood in Times Square holding a sign saying something similar to what hers says - I'd be arrested or have the crap kicked out of me by the locals.

However she's allowed to do this in England? Proclaim her hatered of the country she moved in to and now lives in based on religious reasons and remains untouched?

To me, there's a line seperating those who live in a country and have done all their lives, and are unhappy with the actions of the current government etc. And those who moved into a country to seek shelter and then spend their time inciting race and religious hate against the very country they're now relying upon for support. I'm not suggesting we arrest these people as terrorists, I'm saying that - assuming they moved here - why should we support them if they proclaim such hate for us? Englands infrastructure is shoddy as it is without the added strain of future generations and the arrival of people who're advocating its destruction.

[Mefustae]

This woman however... I imagine her family didn't descend from this country. I'm fairly sure that if I went to America, got a green card and stood in Times Square holding a sign saying something similar to what hers says - I'd be arrested or have the crap kicked out of me by the locals.

However she's allowed to do this in England? Proclaim her hatered of the country she moved in to and now lives in based on religious reasons and remains untouched?

To me, there's a line seperating those who live in a country and have done all their lives, and are unhappy with the actions of the current government etc. And those who moved into a country to seek shelter and then spend their time inciting race and religious hate against the very country they're now relying upon for support. I'm not suggesting we arrest these people as terrorists, I'm saying that - assuming they moved here - why should we support them if they proclaim such hate for us? Englands infrastructure is shoddy as it is without the added strain of future generations and the arrival of people who're advocating its destruction.

You may not what they like to say, but they have the right to say it. I love it how people often complain about nanny-states and scream bloody-murder when rights are taken away, but then turn around to someone with a disliked view and yell 'screw them, someone make 'em shut up!'. See, if you were to go parading around in the middle of Times Square with a sign like that, you wouldn't be arrested, because you are allowed to do that. You'd probably be jumped by some overly-nationalistic dickhead, but you'd be protected by the police, not arrested. Yes, what they are saying is rather disgusting and downright offensive, but to deny them the right to say that is just as disgusting and offensive.

You don't like what she's got to say, fair enough. But if you don't like how people like her have the right to proclaim their view, maybe you should try living in a country where people don't have the right to proclaim their view.

[aldo_14]

Why not deport the BNP at the same time?  I mean, we don't view British citizens as being any less British due to their skin colour or religion, so the BNP are also trying to destroy the country.....unfortunately, we just can't kick out the ****s without destroying the basis of our own freedoms.

Does the BNP follow a religious cause though? Did they come into this country with those beliefs of destruction?

Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know much about the BNP. But I thought they at least originally came from this country and weren't following an apparently holy cause.

[]http://www.hard-light.net/staff/sandwich/photos/muslims_in_england/ATT00072.jpg[/]

This woman however... I imagine her family didn't descend from this country. I'm fairly sure that if I went to America, got a green card and stood in Times Square holding a sign saying something similar to what hers says - I'd be arrested or have the crap kicked out of me by the locals.

However she's allowed to do this in England? Proclaim her hatered of the country she moved in to and now lives in based on religious reasons and remains untouched?

To me, there's a line seperating those who live in a country and have done all their lives, and are unhappy with the actions of the current government etc. And those who moved into a country to seek shelter and then spend their time inciting race and religious hate against the very country they're now relying upon for support. I'm not suggesting we arrest these people as terrorists, I'm saying that - assuming they moved here - why should we support them if they proclaim such hate for us? Englands infrastructure is shoddy as it is without the added strain of future generations and the arrival of people who're advocating its destruction.

Well, should we deport/transports people for criminal offences?

I mean, that's what this is.  Her familial history does not matter one bit if she is a british citizen; I think it'd be pretty racist (frankly) to suggest that, for example, we should deport a British Muslim for racist incitement but not, say, a British Christian.  Moreso, it'd also be sectarian to deport people for incitement simply because their reasons are religious rather than, say, racial.

To suggest deportation for one particular message of hatred and intolerance, but not for all equivalent messages expressed for different reasons is, to me, simply wrong.  Either you apply that punishment fairly and equally, or it becomes its own message of intolerance.

[Fineus]

I think that depends on the message.

Lets look at this another way. If I went to that womans home country and walked the streets with a sign saying that the people of that country deserved to die and should prepare themselves for it from my own people, if I understand correctly, I'd run the risk of being stoned to death. Yes?

What are we trying to prove then, by allowing someone to come to our own country and proclaim their hatered of us? I'm not suggesting we stone her to death. I'm not suggesting we harm her at all. I'm saying that if these people hate this land so much, why do they stay here? Do I feel good about allowing her to come here and say how much she hates me? Not really! I don't want to see this hatred. I don't hate her - but I hate the message she carries.

And when does the right to free speach become the right to free action? A man is allowed to walk around with a sign saying "you deserve to die, and my people will make it so" - he's even protected - but if he follows through then he's arrested. Should we not - in our hunt for terrorists in this country - start with those who publically state these things? The message is tantamount to "I am a terrorist and/or support their cause", but we turn a blind eye untill something happens...

Then we're up in arms. It's a media frenzy. How can these (now) evil people be allowed to be in our country? How did our leaders not stop them before this happened?

So now I'll answer your question. Anyone who expresses the belief that an entire country of people deserves to be killed should not be allowed to remain in that country. Why should that countries people live in fear of those who would wish harm upon them? I do not hate Iraq or the people thereof. I don't hate any country in that fashion . If I did I wouldn't go there and say as much - and I expect the same from them.

The alternative? We all express our hatred of eachother. We become terrorists. We blow things up and a lot of people die. Everyone cries about how it shouldn't have been, and how can these people be allowed to live in that country... and the grand cycle continues. As one of  the resident white middle class people of England - I'm tired of the countries wishy-washy approach to its more serious law enforcement. Don't misunderstand me, there's a world of difference between that and advocating a nanny state. In a simple phrase..

..Those who wish us harm should not be allowed to be in a position where they are capable of doing so. You choose to publically wish for war and death upon a country and its people - you shouldn't cry if you get chucked out of that country.

[aldo_14]

If they are born in this country, regardless of parentage, then they do not 'come to this country' any more than you or I have come to it.

[IceFire]

I'm agreeing with Kalfireth.  The somewhat local and recent arrest of multiple people on terrorism charges here in Canada has revealed some deep seated hatred for us Canadians.  Some of that coming from those born here and some of that coming from those who have come from their countries to our country.  Canada is probably amongst the best countries in the world for having an open door to people looking for a new life without necessarilly having to give up their entire culture.  But it irks me that these people can come into my country and then declare that they want to destroy us for what we are.  Why are they here?  Why are they teaching their children this stuff?

[aldo_14]

I'm agreeing with Kalfireth.  The somewhat local and recent arrest of multiple people on terrorism charges here in Canada has revealed some deep seated hatred for us Canadians.  Some of that coming from those born here and some of that coming from those who have come from their countries to our country.  Canada is probably amongst the best countries in the world for having an open door to people looking for a new life without necessarilly having to give up their entire culture.  But it irks me that these people can come into my country and then declare that they want to destroy us for what we are.  Why are they here?  Why are they teaching their children this stuff?

Deportation of resident aliens (or whatever the term is) is fine, but what about when you're talking about citizens born in the country?

As an aside, on the specific issue of muslim extremism, IIRC the small minority of 'death to the west' style Muslims in the UK are almost entirely all both young and British born; from what I recall, those who emigrate and are of the older (i.e. parents, grandparents) generation are much less likely to have these kinds of views.

[karajorma]

It's the religion Kara. I know it's hard to believe but it's the truth. There is some extremely nasty stuff in their religious texts.

Sorry but that's a load of bollocks. Show me any of these nasty lines from the Koran and I'll show you equally nasty stuff from the bible to match it.

In many ways Islamic "extremists" are just true followers of the religion. It's like calling a Christian who goes to church once a week an extremist. On that score I believe there are potentially a huge number of extremists out there. It's just not all of them are vocal about it.

No it's like calling the christian fundementalists in America extremists. Which they are. Does that make all christian's extremists? Of course it doesn't.

So now I'll answer your question. Anyone who expresses the belief that an entire country of people deserves to be killed should not be allowed to remain in that country.

Are you going to tell Nuke that he has to leave America then?

[Fineus]

It's not for me to enforce, but that's the beauty of my freedom of speach - I can say what I think

But I'm not preaching the destruction of a people or country. I'm calling for the security of my own. I want to be able to live my life here, safe in the knowledge that I won't be blown up, shot, gassed or murdered by those that publically proclaim hatred of me (as a people) and my country.

Don't get me wrong on this. I don't like England or the country it's becoming. But I'm not calling for its destruction.

Surely it's the duty of each and every government to ensure the protection of the people it represents. By allowing those that would call for my destruction to remain in this country, are they really doing that?

[Mefustae]

It's not for me to enforce, but that's the beauty of my freedom of speach - I can say what I think

But these people obviously can't. Fair enough.

[Fineus]

But these people obviously can't. Fair enough.

You're ignoring everything else I said to put a spin on this. Please don't.

[Mefustae]

Right, sorry, just being a pain.

[Fineus]

No worries, just as long as we both know

[Mefustae]

But, really, the issue I take with your point of view is that it is based on the assumption that a Government is trustworthy, infallable and capable, and I don't need to tell you what's wrong with that sentence.

Surely it's the duty of each and every government to ensure the protection of the people it represents. By allowing those that would call for my destruction to remain in this country, are they really doing that?

You make a valid point, but where is the line drawn between someone who actually intends to hurt the state, and someone who just talks about hurting the state? If the Government has the ability to deport people who express anti-state rhetoric, you can't honestly believe that it wouldn't be abused within a month, do you? It's a veeeery slippery slope, that one.

If there is someone who is running around the streets calling for my death and the death of my family and friends, I would have no qualms in that individual being investigated by the authorities, just in the same way they would check out any criminal who acts like he might commit a crime. But investigating and deporting are two very, very different things.

[karajorma]

Which is why I mentioned Nuke. He has repeatedly called for the destruction of the entire world. By Kalfireth's logic he should be exiled to the moon then, right?

[Fineus]

Unfortunately you have a point.... and that's where the whole thing falls apart.

On the one hand, I don't see why I (or we as a people) should be threatened by those of another race or religion publically saying we deserve death/destruction.

Of course, then you (or I) could ask.. "yes but what of those who are of the same race and religion as you are?". I can't answer that. I don't like it, but at least I feel they have the same general background as I do so perhaps have a better foundation for their hatred than "you're not from my race or religion, so die".

As for Nuke... well that's his special case. He's not out in the streets planning to bomb people, is he?

[Edward Bradshaw]

Those Muslims in those pictures represent the equivalent of the Klu Klux Klan, Neo Nazies or the Christian Identity terrorist cult for Christianity.

The problem with these guys is not that they shouldnt have a right to say what they like, its that these people really ARE dangerous.

[Nuclear1]

Which is why I mentioned Nuke. He has repeatedly called for the destruction of the entire world. By Kalfireth's logic he should be exiled to the moon then, right?

IIRC, when Nuke has said this, he's always added some sort of " " or other hint that he's joking about it.

You'd probably be jumped by some overly-nationalistic dickhead, but you'd be protected by the police, not arrested.

An over-nationalistic dickhead in New York of all places? If you'd said Houston or Indianapolis, I'd be inclined to agree with you, but since it seems that just about everyone in New York would be more inclined to join the protestor rather than vehemontly beat him/her.

You make a valid point, but where is the line drawn between someone who actually intends to hurt the state, and someone who just talks about hurting the state? If the Government has the ability to deport people who express anti-state rhetoric, you can't honestly believe that it wouldn't be abused within a month, do you? It's a veeeery slippery slope, that one.

Sure, the power would be abused, and deportation shouldn't be used. However, when something does happen and someone needs to be held accountable, people shouldn't be screaming bloody murder or racism when the people who called for the murder of thousands are examined a bit closer than the average Englishman or American.

[aldo_14]

It's not for me to enforce, but that's the beauty of my freedom of speach - I can say what I think

But I'm not preaching the destruction of a people or country. I'm calling for the security of my own. I want to be able to live my life here, safe in the knowledge that I won't be blown up, shot, gassed or murdered by those that publically proclaim hatred of me (as a people) and my country.

Don't get me wrong on this. I don't like England or the country it's becoming. But I'm not calling for its destruction.

Surely it's the duty of each and every government to ensure the protection of the people it represents. By allowing those that would call for my destruction to remain in this country, are they really doing that?

Does that mean we should re-institute transportation?