Author Topic: FreeSpace era ground combat  (Read 16230 times)

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Offline Flipside

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Re: FreeSpace era ground combat
Personally, I think I'd go to great lengths to avoid seeing it ;)

 
Re: FreeSpace era ground combat
yea, it'd be better if they had some sort of uniform on....

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"Take my love. Take my land. Take me where I cannot stand. I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me. Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back. Burn the land boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me. There's no place I can be since I've found Serenity. But you can't take the sky from me." - Ballad of Serenity

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: FreeSpace era ground combat
For some reason when I see dead Marines on the ground I don't think battle. If it was a battle I could see them collecting the remains.

If it were a crash or something else, I could also see them not collecting the remains.

It just kinda got me when someone said "when you look at that, don't you see a battle?"

And I thought no, cause who would leave them all behind? Even if they were wiped out I would still think someone would go to see.

 

Offline Mars

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Re: FreeSpace era ground combat
There is the wreckage of ships all over the planet, which looks uninhabitable, I don't think it was ground combat, people crawling out of their ships and dieing seems far more likely to me... as far as I can tell, only about two or three people here have come to your conclusion.

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: FreeSpace era ground combat
Who's conclusion is that?

 

Offline Mars

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Re: FreeSpace era ground combat
My own, just as yours is your own, and how else would you explain the herc pilot?

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: FreeSpace era ground combat
You've completely lost me. I just said the image of the soldiers on the ground didn't exactly say "battle" because they wouldn't really have left them behind.

 

Offline Turey

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Re: FreeSpace era ground combat
Regarding the GTD Hades #2:


If the FS2 Techroom takes the time to mention this:

"There are rumors that the Alliance has attempted to reconstruct the Hades to learn more about the GTI's activities. These reports have yet to be confirmed by government sources."

That's canon enough for me.
Creator of the FreeSpace Open Installer.
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why would an SCP error be considered as news? :wtf: *smacks Cobra*It's a feature.

 

Offline Freespace Freak

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Re: FreeSpace era ground combat
:wtf:

Wow.  You're telling me, that if you went back in time, walked onto Omaha beach in Normandy, and looked at all the dead American soldiers lying around, you'd say "Hmmmm, looks like these soldiers fell from out of a transport plane that blew up in the air.  Yes, I see no evidence that they died in combat."   :wtf:

You guys are so clung on to your canon that you can't see past it.  It's pretty amazing, actually.

YES, ACCORDING TO CANON MY THEORY IS SIMPLY NOT POSSIBLE.  BUT SINCE THE WRITERS IGNORED CANON, YOU ALSO MUST TAKE YOUR CANON, THROW IT OUT THE WINDOW, AND PRETEND IT NEVER EXISTED!!!!  :D

Okay, now let's watch the cutscene anew.  Again, pretend you never even heard of the FS universe.  Now, first we see what are apparently human fighters.  We can say that because they look familiar to us.  They have bubble canopies that we are familiar with today.  Now we see they are involved in a war with some alien looking bad dudes, and the humans are getting their butts royally kicked.  After watching one fighter get shot down and barrel towards the planet, we emerge on what is apparently the surface of that planet, but the subtitles say we are now 32 years later.  We see a bunch of dead soldiers.  We can tell they are soldiers because their equipment and helmets and all are reminiscent of soldier garb in our lifetime.  They are all soldiers; no other dead people in other garb are around.  Now, from the context of what we just saw, and REMEMBER WE ARE COMPLETELY IGNORING CANON, we must ask ourselves, what is the most likely explanation of their deaths?

1)  Is it possible they fell from a starship that exploded in the atmosphere, or crash landed on the planet and they died later?
*ding* Yes.
2)  Is it possible they died evacuating refugees or some other such occurrence?
*ding* Yes.
3)  Is it possible they died from a battle completely unrelated to the one we just saw two seconds ago?
*ding* Yes.
4)  Is it possible that they died in a battle against the same bad guys we just saw kicking everyone else’s but two seconds ago?
*ding* Yes.

In short, any explanation is possible, but our point is to try and determine which scenario is most likely.  According to canon, the last scenario is impossible, because as we all know, the Shivans never fought in ground warfare.  BUT REMEMBER WE ARE COMPLETELY IGNORING CANON, BECAUSE THE WRITERS DID SO WHEN THEY CREATED IT. 

So, let's look at possibility 1.  Answer: *eh eh* not likely.  Why?  Because if that did happen, the bodies would not likely be intact.  Furthermore, we would see all kinds of other people, enlisted personnel, navy officers, and anyone else you'd expect to see on a ship interspersed amongst the dead.

Possibility 2.  Answer: *eh eh* not likely.  Again, were all the civilians?  Why don't we see them interspersed amongst the dead Marines? 

Possibility 3.  Answer: *ding* Possible.  However, what does it have to do with the events that took place just two seconds ago in the cutscene?  Answer: Nothing.  So, if it has nothing to do with anything else going on in the cutscene, why would they include it?  Answer: they wouldn't.  So, possibility number 3 just got knocked down to *eh eh* not likely.

Possibility 4.  Answer:  *ding ding ding ding ding* Likely.  Why?  Because of all the different possibilities, it's the only one that explains why it is only Marines who are dead.  Also, if you are completely ignorant of the FS universe, it's the first thing that'll come to mind.  Unless you're the type who as I mentioned before would walk upon Omaha beach and say "Oh, they must have fallen out of a military transport plane, how clumsy."  Remember we are forming our conclusions solely on what we saw in the cutscene, not on any prior knowledge of the FS universe.  In the context of the cutscene, we just saw a bunch of ugly bad dudes kicking human arse, and it would be most logical to conclude that all these soldiers must have died in a similar manner. 

You see, it is symmetry.  All the events that we see in the cutscenes are all inter-related.  All of it revolves around a single concept, a theme.  Remember back to your creative writing class.  To throw some random thing in there that doesn't have anything to do with anything else in the scene doesn't make sense from an artistic point of view, because it's not in step with the theme.  Of course, we see events happening all the time that don't have a thing to do with anything else going on everyday in real life.  But we're not looking at real life, we're looking at art.  And in art, every part of the piece is interconnected, and related to everything else in that scene.  That's the very definition of following a theme.

So, possibility #4 is the most likely explanation.  Of course, it contradicts canon, but remember WE ARE IGNORING CANON!  :)  It's the most likely because it is the one explanation that fits the THEME, yes that word that all us nerds hated in creative writing.  All the other explanations are possible, but since they don't fit the theme of the piece, it wouldn't make sense for the writers to include it in the piece.

@Blue Lion

My good sir,
You raised the question on why the dead weren't collected if it was a battlefield.  So now I ask you, why weren't the dead collected if any of the other scenarios are correct?  There's no reason why they couldn't have collected the dead for any of the possible explanations.  Any possible explanation would have the problem of why the bodies weren't collected, and for all possible scenarios, the only logical explanation is that there was no one left to collect them, and/or it was too costly to do so.


Thank you and good night!!  Of course, most likely no one going to read the entire thing so I probably just wasted my breath.  Or fingers.  Or whatever.    :p
« Last Edit: September 28, 2006, 08:07:00 pm by Freespace Freak »

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: FreeSpace era ground combat
I'm gonna hazard a guess that the remains on Normandy weren't down to skeletons. I could be wrong though.

Quote
My good sir,
You raised the question on why the dead weren't collected if it was a battlefield.  So now I ask you, why weren't the dead collected if any of the other scenarios is correct?  There's no reason why they couldn't have collected the dead for any of the possible explanations.  Any possible explanation would have the problem of why the bodies weren't collected, and for all possible scenarios, the only logical explanation is that there was no one left to collect them, and/or it was too costly to do so.

A. They don't know they are there. The landscape didn't look too populated. A Hades could have crashed and no one knew it was there.

B. The planet was inhospitable for some reason in that area.

« Last Edit: September 28, 2006, 08:12:26 pm by Blue Lion »

 

Offline Taristin

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Re: FreeSpace era ground combat
:wtf:

YES, ACCORDING TO CANON MY THEORY IS SIMPLY NOT POSSIBLE.  BUT SINCE THE WRITERS IGNORED CANON, YOU ALSO MUST TAKE YOUR CANON, THROW IT OUT THE WINDOW, AND PRETEND IT NEVER EXISTED!!!!


You're missing one thing. The writers created the canon. Only they can change it
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Offline Freespace Freak

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Re: FreeSpace era ground combat
I'm gonna hazard a guess that the remains on Normandy weren't down to skeletons. I could be wrong though.

Yes, but I can tell already you didn't read my entire post.   :P

Supposed the invasion of Normandy was a failure, all the Americans died and were not able to collect their dead. What if the Nazis didn't care about burying the enemy dead and left them to rot?  Suppose the Allies never won and those bodies were left there for years, and then you walked on the beach, and saw all the dead American soldiers.  What would you conclude?  Would you say "Hmmm, they must have fallen from a military transport.  How clumsy!"  No!  You'd say, "Oooh, how grusome!  They must have died tragically in battle."  That was the point I'm trying to make.

 

Offline Freespace Freak

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Re: FreeSpace era ground combat

You're missing one thing. The writers created the canon. Only they can change it

And you're misunderstanding one thing.  I'm not trying to recreate canon.  Again, for the record.  I PERSONALLY DON'T BELIEVE A GROUND BATTLE EVER TOOK PLACE ACCORDING TO CANON, but that cutscene is a circumvension of canon, if you will.  The conclusions I have about the writer's intention with that cutscene are seperate from what I think really happened according to canon.  Now, please, if you will, my good Taristin, continue.

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: FreeSpace era ground combat
I'm gonna hazard a guess that the remains on Normandy weren't down to skeletons. I could be wrong though.

Yes, but I can tell already you didn't read my entire post.   :P

Supposed the invasion of Normandy was a failure, all the Americans died and were not able to collect their dead. What if the Nazis didn't care about burying the enemy dead and left them to rot?  Suppose the Allies never won and those bodies were left there for years, and then you walked on the beach, and saw all the dead American soldiers.  What would you conclude?  Would you say "Hmmm, they must have fallen from a military transport.  How clumsy!"  No!  You'd say, "Oooh, how grusome!  They must have died tragically in battle."  That was the point I'm trying to make.

Not even close. IF you assume it was a battle, IF you assume they were slaughtered, it was a long time ago. Long enough for them to skeletonize. Why weren't they buried?

They wouldn't have left them there years after the fact. Families would have wanted remains and higher ups would have wanted to know what happened. That means sending people down, that means burials.

You can't honestly assume the GTVA left soldiers on the ground to rot.

And I did read your post, i was editing.

 

Offline Freespace Freak

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Re: FreeSpace era ground combat
If they fell from a crash landed ship, why didn't the GTVA go back and bury them?  If they died escorting civilian refugees, why didn't the GTVA go back and bury them?  For any possible explanation whatsoever, why didn't the GTVA go back and bury them?  So that argument holds equally for any explanation, and can't invalidate my theory anymore than it would invalidate any other theory.  As I said, for any theory, the only explanation I can think of as for why they weren't buried is because there was not one left to bury them, and/or it was too costly to do so.

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: FreeSpace era ground combat
Because in my previous post I was editing when you already replied. Maybe they didn't know they were there?

Battle of Deneb it's entirely possible a ship went down and crashed but no one knew where. You can't bury what you can't find. Is it possible they couldn't find it? Absolutely. As I already the said, the fact it's a Hades lends me to think it's possible no one really knew where it was in the first place.

I mean I look at the picture and I see skeletons of soldiers and crashed Hades.

Land battle that was left where it was for years and years or an unknown crash?

 

Offline Freespace Freak

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Re: FreeSpace era ground combat

A. They don't know they are there. The landscape didn't look too populated. A Hades could have crashed and no one knew it was there.

B. The planet was inhospitable for some reason in that area.



Again, what would that have to do with the THEME of the piece.  Why would the creators put something in there that doesn't have a damn thing to do with the events we just saw two seconds earlier?  Remember, it's the theme, the theme, the theme.  That dreaded word from creative writing.  We're not talking about theories that require prior knowledge of the FS universe, we're talking about the perspective of people who are largely ignorant of it, because obviously the writers fairly ignored canon on this one.

Simply put, the unknown crash theory is inconsistent with the theme of the piece, and that is humanity locked in a life and death struggle with ugly alien bad dudes.

 

Offline Turey

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Re: FreeSpace era ground combat
What if the Nazis didn't care about burying the enemy dead and left them to rot?

That dovetails with my point quite nicely.

All we know about the Battle of Deneb comes form two places: The FS2 intro, and the FS1 Doomsday mission.

Doomsday ends when the Galetea is destroyed. We know the Lucifer leaves to go blow Vasua Prime, but the Shivans own Deneb now. What's to say that another shivan ship didn't drop some troops and wipe the terrans still on the planet? The Shivans could have picked up the few dead they had and gone away.

The reason it says (somewhere) that we don't know about any Shivan ground fighting is because there would be no one left to repeat the tale.

You can't honestly assume the GTVA left soldiers on the ground to rot.

Quite frankly, there couldn't have been more that 100,000 troops on deneb. We wouldn't have had time to go back to Deneb until after the Lucifer was destroyed, and at that point, we were more concerned about losing TWO PLANETS FULL OF PEOPLE!!!



My personal belief is that there was a Terran military outpost on Deneb, and that it got destroyed by the Shivans after the Galetea got beamed. It could have even been a GTI outpost, which MIGHT explain the hulk that looks like a Hades.
Creator of the FreeSpace Open Installer.
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why would an SCP error be considered as news? :wtf: *smacks Cobra*It's a feature.

 

Offline Freespace Freak

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Re: FreeSpace era ground combat
Hmmm. as far as I know, the only reason that it is considered canon that Shivans didn't wage ground battles is because in FS1, during a command brief, it is mentioned "Interestingly enough, the Shivans don't seem interested in controlling any planets, but instead seem interested in controlling individual jump nodes."

However, this doesn't mean that ground combat never took place, although I'll take that as a not likely.  However, if it's true that the Shivans aren't interesting in controlling any planets, why was the battle of Deneb waged in orbit?  In the main FS1 campain, it wasn't.  However, in the cutscene, it was.  Another area where the cutscene is apparantly divergent from canon.

This actually brings me to my final point.  Canon or not, if the Shivans did or were to fight humans on the ground, I'd say with certainty they'd kick human but in 1G or 0G or whatever G battle conditions, merely to keep in step with the THEME of FS, and that is that the Shivans can kick our butts no matter what we do.  That is, unless you're name is Alpha 1.    :cool:
« Last Edit: September 28, 2006, 09:03:55 pm by Freespace Freak »

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: FreeSpace era ground combat
Again, what would that have to do with the THEME of the piece.

Because they mention "inhabited by ghosts" It shows the after effects of the war with the Shivans. Dead humans goes towards that theme.

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Why would the creators put something in there that doesn't have a damn thing to do with the events we just saw two seconds earlier?  Remember, it's the theme, the theme, the theme.  That dreaded word from creative writing.

Because it does have something to do with the events. You don't know it doesn't.

It's not part of the theme? I beg to differ. The cutscene has 3 parts. A battle, the aftermath of bodies and broken ships, and then the new ships heading off into.... whatever. The soldiers on the ground clearly deal with the fact that GTVA lives surrounded by reminders of battle. The Herc pilot is another example. My assumption is no one knew he was there. Simply because he is still there.

Quote
We're not talking about theories that require prior knowledge of the FS universe, we're talking about the perspective of people who are largely ignorant of it, because obviously the writers fairly ignored canon on this one.

Exactly, if I see skeletons on the ground, I think accident. I think missing, I think something other than battle. I don't see them leaving bodies if they knew where they were. They would know a battle took place there.

Quote
Simply put, the unknown crash theory is inconsistent with the theme of the piece, and that is humanity locked in a life and death struggle with ugly alien bad dudes.

You don't know that's not why they crashed. Just cause it crashed doesn't mean they got lost on a trip. They could have crashed there after a battle. The crash itself doesn't have to be accidental in nature.