[Dysko]

I don't know if this is the right board for this question, but...

Do we know anything about FreeSpace era ground combat, apart from the 600'000 troops on Cygnus Prime in the first mission and the multiplayer mission where you have to stop the NTF landing force? Which weapons and vehicles are used in ground combat?

(If I posted in the wrong board, please move)

[Turey]

go watch hallfight.mve (FS1) and intro.mve (FS2). Both show infantry combat suits. hallfight even has weapons fire. the second half of intro.mve (after the big smoke cloud + title) has a whole bunch of dead infantry units in combat suits.

Infantry combat suits are gray:


Pilot suits are that odd red suit:

[Dysko]

go watch hallfight.mve. hallfight even has weapons fire.

I think the soldiers in "Hallfight" can be considered more like commandos than a conventional infantry unit, but anyway it's a clue. Thanks.
Can anybody tell me his opinion (not necessarily evidence from the games) about ground combat in FS?

[Turey]

I feel that standard equipment for a standard GTVA infantry unit would include:

Combat suit with movement assist (so you can run faster, jump farther, and throw REALLY big rocks.)
Machine gun
Infared/Computer-assisted sight (that's probably what the thing over the eye is on the combat suits. Allows for Nightvision, Zoom, Hostile Identification / Targetting, etc.)
Grenades of some sort.

[Freespace Freak]

Volition always confuses me.  They said that the Shivans seemed uninterested in taking any planets, but clearly ground combat occurred, as evidenced by the cutscene.

[Dark Hunter]

Hallfight took place on board an Azrael transport.

And I think it plausible that the dead people in the intro.mve were killed by the Lucy beams? They weren't in the city, they were on the outskirts, where the beam wouldn't have completely vaporized stuff.
EDIT: Just realized that that planet was Deneb, not Vasuda Prime. Still, maybe the Lucy shot up that planet too.


Also, one other instance with ground fighting: The Iceni. During in-mission chatter you hear the Iceni people start talking about onboard battles with Shivans (and they were apparently a lot more successful than the poor Hallfight souls...).

[Freespace Freak]

Hallfight took place on board an Azrael transport.

And I think it plausible that the dead people in the intro.mve were killed by the Lucy beams? They weren't in the city, they were on the outskirts, where the beam wouldn't have completely vaporized stuff.
EDIT: Just realized that that planet was Deneb, not Vasuda Prime. Still, maybe the Lucy shot up that planet too.


Also, one other instance with ground fighting: The Iceni. During in-mission chatter you hear the Iceni people start talking about onboard battles with Shivans (and they were apparently a lot more successful than the poor Hallfight souls...).

If the lucy bombarded Deneb, those people would be vaporized, not merely dead.  Also, they would mostly civilians, not combat troops.  So, no.  They weren't killed by the Lucy, they were killed in combat, no bones about it.

[Dark Hunter]

Self-quote:

They weren't in the city, they were on the outskirts, where the beam wouldn't have completely vaporized stuff.

And I can see military people down there if assisting in the evacuation of planet in light of the LUCIFER sitting in mid-orbit!

I don't think the cutscenes should be taken as completely canon though. You can clearly see a crashed Hades in the background, and I thought Jotunheim Installation was in Ross 128, not Deneb...

[NGTM-1R]

It's worthwhile to remember that practically every explosive weapon seen in FS would be too destructive for atmospheric useage. The lightest explosive weapon we have statistics for, FS1's Fury, has a three kiloton yield, greater then some current-day tactical nukes. Given the known range of the Fury if it were used on the ground then the firer would be at as much risk as the target. (This also creates the interesting situation that in-atmosphere dogfights must almost certainly use only primaries, because any secondary hits would create a shockwave that would cause everyone within a kilometer or more to at the least lose control of their fighter, and without a lot of altitude to burn probably crash.)

Ground combat in Freespace is probably dominated by energy and kinetic-kill ballistic weaponry, with explosives being the exception rather then the rule; explosives powerful enough to penetrate the armor of the day are also too powerful to be used safely. Artillery and grenades as we know them, ones that kill mainly by fragmentation, are probably dead; a plasma-yield shell or a load of kinetic-kill submunitions have replaced them. (Counterpoint: Shivan put down in Hallfight was probably hit by an AP grenade.)

Regarding Shivans on the ground; I think that the FS2 opening cinematic is probably the result of the Lucifer bombarding the planet. Shivans are extremely poorly suited to ground combat by the very short reach of their weapons. What made the Shivans so devastating in Hallfight was that they could get very close before being taken under fire; on a planet they would have this advantage much less often, and would also be subject to the full gamut of heavy weaponry. On a spacecraft you are limited in your weaponry choices by the need to not completely wreck the interior (capturing implies a desire for it intact; punching every bulkhead and piece of machinery full of holes is not intact) or put holes in the hull. Crew-served squad support weaponry loses its usefulness on a spacecraft both for its excess of power and its utility being closely tied to superior range. The GTVA also probably has some kind of armored vehicles and dedicated close air support craft. Shivans as we know them would get murdered on most terrain types in a fight with any sort of tank.

EDIT:
Purely speculative crap on my part: The Vasudans, being traditionally resource-poor, relied on their infantry more then Terrans did during the T-V War; their apparently thicker and (greater?) power-assist armor, seen in several cutscenes and a number of :V: renders, lends credence to this. Armored vehicles and close air support craft were rare in Vasudan units, and Vasudan doctrine in their use poorly developed. Terran units had less-capable infantry but integrated aircraft and armor. While it proved easy for Terrans to smash Vasudan armies in battle, the Vasudans also proved extremely difficult to completely eradicate, leading to the development of a scorched-earth mentality and ultimately the use of Harbinger bombs (with a 5000Mt yield and salting to increase fallout) in preference to ground invasion. Following the formation of the GTVA both groups picked each other's brains to improve their own weapons and doctrine; as of the NTF Rebellion the difference between Terran and Vasudan troops is probably minimal.

[Mars]

I think it's possible the dead soldiers on the planet were from a crashed destroyer, the destroyers are big enough and have thick enough armor (they can take gigaton blasts) that at least some wreckage would remain, and potentially people.

[ZmaN]

I think it's possible the dead soldiers on the planet were from a crashed destroyer, the destroyers are big enough and have thick enough armor (they can take gigaton blasts) that at least some wreckage would remain, and potentially people.

yeah I never thought it was becasue of ground combat.  that thought never crossed my mind.  I mean destroyers could hold 30000 people.  thats enough for the intro of FS2

[achtung]

I think it's possible the dead soldiers on the planet were from a crashed destroyer, the destroyers are big enough and have thick enough armor (they can take gigaton blasts) that at least some wreckage would remain, and potentially people.

This is the conclusion I always came to.

[spartan_0214]

sorry for being a n00b, but what year does FS2 take place?

[Flipside]

Yup, I think the whole 'ground combat ability' of the GTVA is very much an open book. The only soldiers we see appear to be (though this is not confirmed by anthing) something akin to assault troops, I suspect they normally play the role of boarding damaged enemy ships, not ground combat. The magnetic boots and the fact they seemed well versed in using them does tend to support this.

I don't see Terrans fighting without Tanks and Artillery, it goes against our nature to run in and grapple if we can stand back, throw things, and take out ten enemy at a time.

[Mars]

I don't see Terrans fighting without Tanks and Artillery, it goes against our nature to run in and grapple if we can stand back, throw things, and take out ten enemy at a time.

Ah human nature... you'd think with an upbringing like that the human race would be better fighters in the FS universe

[Turey]

Shivans are extremely poorly suited to ground combat by the very short reach of their weapons.

Two ideas on shivan ground combat suitability:

1:
I'm sure that ANY species that has an integrated, shoulder-mounted beam cannon has the technology to change the focus of the laser with a simple thought. Think of it like your energy management system. you've got 3 attributes, all of which require that the other be turned down in order to increase that attribute. The three attributes of the Shivan shoulder-laser would be:

Width: The field of effect of the weapon.
Range/Power: The distance at which the laser is still instant death to a human.
# Of Shots: How many shots the laser can do if the energy source is not refilled in any way. (in reality, the laser power source is probably recharged just like your weapon energy, but for the purposes of this definition, we'll ignore the recharge factor.)

I'm sure that, for the hall fight, the shoulder lasers were set to maximize Width and # of Shots, which would be standard operating procedure while in a firefight inside a shivan ship. The lasers would easily wipe out multiple hostiles at close range, while the increased # of shots allows the shivans to continue fighting for a longer period of time. Range/Power would not be nessicary at the close ranges inside a ship, and so the lasers wouldn't burn through the hull or damage critical parts.

For ground fighting, I'm sure the shivans would minimize Width and increase Range/Power, to have a more effective sniper-like weapon, then once they closed with the enemy, they'd revert to the above configuration. This allows the Shivan laser to be more powerful, more useful, and more true to the shivan mindset. Do you think the shivans will settle for a SMALL, NOT-VERY-POWERFUL shoulder cannon? We've already seen that they LOVE giant beams, and will always try to be as deadly as possible.

2:
I've always pictured shivan ground combat much like the movement of a Starcraft Zergling, except exagerated. They would move across the ground in huge, flying leaps, beaming as they go. Each Shivan would launch themselves at a group of Terrans, land either near them or in the midst of them; then let loose with beams until all nearby Terrans are gone; then launch themselves into another group of Terrans.

Well Carl, am I at all close to correct?




Oh ****. I've talked myself into making a cutscene that features Shivan ground combat.  I've got a place for it in my mod, but I'll wait until I actually finish my mod before I make the movie and release it as an add-on.

Speaking of my mod, I've already got all the details of the ground combat methods of my new species all worked out. I think the cutscene will feature them as well.

Anyone got a high-poly Shivan, Terran, or Vasudan model? I'd love to use it in the cutscene. I'll give you credit. Just pm me if you're interested.


EDIT:

Ah human nature... you'd think with an upbringing like that the human race would be better fighters in the FS universe

you have to remember, in FreeSpace 1, we had just gotten into subspace travel, and we didn't have much ability to test space weaponry before that. Frankly, we did pretty well, considering we had little in the way of experience.

[NGTM-1R]

Well, that assumes the Shivans indulge in ground fighting at all. For all we know they can't even handle 1G gravity for long periods. The Shivans seem to be specially adapted for hanging out in low/no gravity and in all likelyhood would lose a significant amount of their agility and mobility at a gravity we consider more normal. (Which may help explain the losses the Shivans took in storming the Iceni. And if the interior of the Iceni is anything like the interior of a current warship, a Shivan would find it difficult just to locate a corridor large enough for it to move in.) My basic point is that the Shivans have made themselves well-suited to defending their own ships at the expense of all else, probably because that is the only type of battle they expect to engage in.

The beam in Hallfight was actually fairly tightly focused, as well, meter or so diameter at the most. The charging period is an issue as well. Those few seconds would be very costly. (I'd also point out that the Shivans at that point probably figured themselves for screwed and wouldn't care about damaging their transport. It's already been shot up pretty good and it's surrounded by Terran ships who are just going to keep throwing the marines at them until they fold.)

[Flipside]

Thing is, we really have precious little evidence to say either way. The Terrans in Hallfight certainly fought in Zero-G, but it's never made clear whether that it normal for a Shivan vessel or was caused through damage. The fight to take the Iceni was fought with greater knowledge of the Shivans, and for all we know, there could have been heavy sentry guns scattered all over the ship which did the most of the damage, it's one of those things we'll never know.

My own take is that even the Ancients don't seem to ever refer to ground combat with the Shivans, so I suspect it is rare if it does happen.

[Turey]

oh man, this topic is using all of my "Remember things about FreeSpace" skills.
Let's take your points one by one, shall we?

Well, that assumes the Shivans indulge in ground fighting at all. For all we know they can't even handle 1G gravity for long periods. The Shivans seem to be specially adapted for hanging out in low/no gravity and in all likelyhood would lose a significant amount of their agility and mobility at a gravity we consider more normal.

Any species strong enough to kick through a Vasudan fighter's shields and hull (shiphit06 movie) can easily handle distance leaps in 1G.

If the interior of the Iceni is anything like the interior of a current warship, a Shivan would find it difficult just to locate a corridor large enough for it to move in.

True.

My basic point is that the Shivans have made themselves well-suited to defending their own ships at the expense of all else, probably because that is the only type of battle they expect to engage in.

Then why have shoulder cannons at all if they don't expect to have any sort of attack other than ship-based?

The charging period is an issue as well. Those few seconds would be very costly.

That charging period could be done as the Shivans performed their flying leaps between each group of Terrans. Besides, we saw the Shivans ripping through the commandos WITHOUT beams (only the last commando got beamed), and with claws capable of crushing even the sturdiest of known alloys, they're not exactly defenseless without a charged beam.
 

I'd also point out that the Shivans at that point probably figured themselves for screwed and wouldn't care about damaging their transport. It's already been shot up pretty good, and it's surrounded by Terran ships who are just going to keep throwing the marines at them until they fold.

But they would care about damaging it. They SHOULD know that this is going to happen:

Tombaugh Station Attack

We've just received some discouraging news from Terran Command, pilots. At 0300 today, after the captured Taranis was towed to Tombaugh installation in the Ribos system, the Shivans staged a major ambush. There isn't a lot of confirmation from the footage yet, but it's clear that a Shivan destroyer of massive proportions jumped in and destroyed Tombaugh station, along with all its defenses. We have designated this new class of Destroyer "Lucifer".

The Shivans on board either must have gotten a message off to the Lucifer containing their position (which is how the Lucifer knew how to jump), or they would know the Lucifer would be able to follow them using the Shivan's advanced subspace knowledge to track their ship. Either way, they knew they only had to hold out until the Lucifer came, and therefore would like to keep their ship in as pristine a condition as possible for when the Lucifer picked them up and hauled them off to a repair station (like the place you steal the Dragon from).

the MindGames idea about the Shivan groupmind would also work to explain how the Lucifer knew where to jump, and would allow the Shivans on board to know they had to hold out only until the Lucifer arrived.

The beam in Hallfight was actually fairly tightly focused, as well, meter or so diameter at the most.

...

and it's surrounded by Terran ships who are just going to keep throwing the marines at them until they fold.

True, but that's just a point in favor of my adjustable beam theory. If the Shivans cut down on both Width AND Range/Power, they'll have plenty of energy to hold off the Terrans until the Lucifer arrives.


EDIT:

My own take is that even the Ancients don't seem to ever refer to ground combat with the Shivans, so I suspect it is rare if it does happen.

Just because it rarely ever happens, do you think they don't have a plan for how to do it if they need to?
America and Great Britain both have contingency plans for almost every military situation, no matter how rare.

[Taristin]

Shivans? Ground combat? ha. All they'd do is convince you they were about to land on a planet, and then glass it like Vasuda prime.

There's your ground combat.