[aldo_14]

They also had nothing to lose but their lives. But still didn't fight to the death like fanatics propably would. They also were in the exact same situation the entire NTF would later try to get in. And that fleet would likely have similar thoughts about surrender to the GTVA had tey been able to punch trought to the nebula.

What makes you think they were fanatics?  Bosch needed an army of stupid cattle for a diversion - but the hard code Vasudan-killers, i.e. the fanatical xenophobes, would scarcely be the ones to send into a (then) empty system on a secret mission.  Bosch had his own GTVA contacts, after all, and i'm pretty sure there'd be officers loyal to him for more reasons than mere hatred of the Vasudans.

[Prophet]

Umm...
I never said they were fanatics. I said they were not fanatics. I don't think there were that many realy fanatics in the NTF. In the same way as there weren't that many true nazis...

[aldo_14]

Umm...
I never said they were fanatics. I said they were not fanatics. I don't think there were that many realy fanatics in the NTF. In the same way as there weren't that many true nazis...

I'm not sure what your point was, then.  What possible logical reason would they have for not surrendering?

[Prophet]

What possible logical reason would they have for not surrendering?

None whatsoever.
But had they been crazy zod killing fanatics, they might have viewed GTVA as bad news as the Shivans and thus choose not to surrender.

Oh look. I have managed to derail this tread too.
Sorry Dan1.

[aldo_14]

What possible logical reason would they have for not surrendering?

None whatsoever.
But had they been crazy zod killing fanatics, they might have viewed GTVA as bad news as the Shivans and thus choose not to surrender.

Oh look. I have managed to derail this tread too.
Sorry Dan1.

I;m sort of lost, now......

ok, a point was made that the NTf would fight to the death rather than surrender & face capture.  Rebuttal was the surrender of the Trinity; counterpoint is that the Trinity is rather an exceptional case.

Yes?

[karajorma]

You also have Admiral Koth's comment about having 10,000 people willing to die for Neo-Terra and his comments about the GTVA being a tyrannical regime.

He's obviously swallowed the propoganda hook, line and sinker.

So there are members of the NTF in key positions who are fanatics. We've got very little info on the politics of the other members of Bosch's staff who weren't in on his plan but there is a chance that they were fanatics too. we've got too little info to state for certain one way or another.

[Dan1]

I probably would have used that same strategy, except I would have stopped my offensive when the Saths started coming in and let the GTVA eat that, then hit them with my (now semi-rested) forces.

Exactly.

[Goober5000]

You also have Admiral Koth's comment about having 10,000 people willing to die for Neo-Terra and his comments about the GTVA being a tyrannical regime.

He's obviously swallowed the propoganda hook, line and sinker.

Or the GTVA really is a tyrannical regime but Alpha 1 doesn't realize it because he's an elite pilot.

[Flipside]

Heh, one man's tyrant is another man's saviour, as they say

[Mars]

GTVA certainly seems big brotherish to me

[Mongoose]

GTVA certainly seems big brotherish to me

You have to remember, though, the only real interaction we have with GTVA is during times with open war, and we're on the military side of things to boot.  I'd imagine that peacetime life for your average Joe back in Beta Aquilae probably isn't too much different from that of a citizen of your average Western democracy today.

Regarding whether or not the NTF was a fanatical movement, the Tech Room's description of the way Bosch started things off certainly suggests that there was a rather desperate element to it.  Remember, this is the "Lost Generation;" the inhabitants of the NTF systems didn't feel like they had much to live for until Bosch came along.  Combined with anti-Vasudan sentiment, that certainly suggests that fanaticism could easily develop.  But I think we don't even have to look that deeply into things to explain the suicide run.  All (or at least the vast majority) of those NTF crews were ex-GTVA; they were deserters and insurrectionists to a man.  And guess what the penalty for traitors is?  Death.  When it comes down to it, given the choice between a military firing squad and a slim chance at escape, I know what I'd choose.

[Goober5000]

GTVA certainly seems big brotherish to me

You have to remember, though, the only real interaction we have with GTVA is during times with open war, and we're on the military side of things to boot.  I'd imagine that peacetime life for your average Joe back in Beta Aquilae probably isn't too much different from that of a citizen of your average Western democracy today.

Ah, but you can tell a lot about the GTVA from its military.  It didn't let the NTF secede.

Compare the NTF and the Confederate States of America.  Both wanted to secede from a larger, more centralized government to preserve a certain way of life.  Both had a moral flaw (treatment of blacks/Vasudans) that their opponent used as a pretext for war.  Both had brilliant military leadership that was eventually beaten by superior technology.

When you come down to it, the main reason the USA/GTVA didn't let the CSA/NTF secede was simply because "secession isn't allowed".  But why shouldn't secession be allowed?  Isn't the right of self-determination what freedom is all about?

[BS403]

FINALLY someone else who sees things like I do

[NGTM-1R]

Isn't the right of self-determination what freedom is all about?

As I've observed before, we generally regard murder as abrogating your right to self-determine, now and forever. As the NTF conducting murder on a massive scale...(And there the parallel with the CSA falls apart.)

[Prophet]

As the NTF conducting murder on a massive scale...

What makes you say that? Is the US also conducting murder on a massive scale? Well, yes it is, but it is not called that.
But I view the NTF as freedom fighters. Exept the irrational phobia about Vasudans is a bit creepy.

[NGTM-1R]

Wellllll...

The first mission in FS2. Just for starters.

[Prophet]

Oh right. 20 heavy attack fighters assaulting a convoy of fragile freighters escorted by 6-7 (?) damaged fighters?

1. WTF was in those freighters? Sending rhat many fighters to down them, they really must have hated those poor defensless people.. No wonder they lost the war.
2. That many fighters and they didn't have a chance against the freighters. No wonder they lost the war.

[NGTM-1R]

Civilian refugees were in those freighters.

Besides, as observed, the NTF was explictly anti-Vasudan, and you expect me to believe they didn't take that to the logical conclusion in Deneb?

[aldo_14]

GTVA certainly seems big brotherish to me

You have to remember, though, the only real interaction we have with GTVA is during times with open war, and we're on the military side of things to boot.  I'd imagine that peacetime life for your average Joe back in Beta Aquilae probably isn't too much different from that of a citizen of your average Western democracy today.

Ah, but you can tell a lot about the GTVA from its military.  It didn't let the NTF secede.

Compare the NTF and the Confederate States of America.  Both wanted to secede from a larger, more centralized government to preserve a certain way of life.  Both had a moral flaw (treatment of blacks/Vasudans) that their opponent used as a pretext for war.  Both had brilliant military leadership that was eventually beaten by superior technology.

When you come down to it, the main reason the USA/GTVA didn't let the CSA/NTF secede was simply because "secession isn't allowed".  But why shouldn't secession be allowed?  Isn't the right of self-determination what freedom is all about?

Albeit the Nazis claimed that the Germans in the Sudetenland (and Austria, etc) self-determined to be part of Germany as a prextext for annexation, so it cuts both ways.  Plus, the NTF rose to power as the result of a military coup, not democratic elections, and any imposed dictatorship can easily cajole and force the population to give it the appearance of support.

[Freespace Freak]

Regardless of self-determination, I think the NTF had to be stopped.  Besides, they were attacking the GTVA in way of attacking the Vasudans and massacring Vasudan civilians, and trying to capture Polaris, which AFIAK was not predominately pre-NTF. 

And, as much as I hate bush, his crime is fighting a war that may not be justified.  In war civilians die, no matter how hard you try not to.  By fighting this *possibly* unjustified war he let civilians be killed, however he's not ordering troops to go in and slaughter innocent civilians just because.  Bosch did, though, just like Hitler, or the Japanese military dictatorship of WWII.