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Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by Dark_4ce:
... I think they could walk in a human G enivorement, because I think their exoskeleton would be more of a power suit, hiding a more mushier shivan inside. (ala ID4) But thats just me...  

As someone pointed out in the Shivan Sociology thread, what we saw in the Hallfight were actual shivans, not power suits, mecha, armor, etc. They might be crispy on the outside and tender and juicy on the inside, but as with real world arthropods, if they were that big, they wouldn't be able to support themselves in a 1G field. Fractions of 1G, perhaps. Microgravity (orbital) situations, sure.

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Offline Dark_4ce

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael:
As someone pointed out in the Shivan Sociology thread, what we saw in the Hallfight were actual shivans, not power suits, mecha, armor, etc. They might be crispy on the outside and tender and juicy on the inside, but as with real world arthropods, if they were that big, they wouldn't be able to support themselves in a 1G field. Fractions of 1G, perhaps. Microgravity (orbital) situations, sure.


Yeah I read the thread now. Hmmm... Well, since they're advanced in technology, I'm pritty sure that they would come up with some sort of implimentaion to help them survive in a 1G enviroment. Surely there would be some reason for them to land on planets?
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Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by Dark_4ce:
Yeah I read the thread now. Hmmm... Well, since they're advanced in technology, I'm pritty sure that they would come up with some sort of implimentaion to help them survive in a 1G enviroment. Surely there would be some reason for them to land on planets?

Yes, but WHY? They don't seem to occupy planets. The glass them from orbit. I think the most G they ever deal with is accelleration induced.

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Offline Nico

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael:
Yes, but WHY? They don't seem to occupy planets. The glass them from orbit. I think the most G they ever deal with is accelleration induced.


why? hey... I think a mara at full accelerations pulls more than one G  
Isn't it obvious that shivans are strong? they take that marine and punch him against the walls! I think the antiG evolution is wrong, now that I think of it.They may haven't evolved on a planet, but even in a capship moving forward, there's an acceleration. Shivans are just evolved apes, motion-wise, they move better than us on accidented grounds, but there's no proof they would run faster than a terran on flat ground (hey, maybe shivans lives in trees lol). They are made for close combat (the plasma gun is used onlt at close range, and they have those super claws), you can't have a weak creature do that in an army. And a creature that can stand a 1G environment IS weak.
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Offline mikhael

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Originally posted by venom2506:
why? hey... I think a mara at full accelerations pulls more than one G  
Isn't it obvious that shivans are strong? they take that marine and punch him against the walls! I think the antiG evolution is wrong, now that I think of it.They may haven't evolved on a planet, but even in a capship moving forward, there's an acceleration. Shivans are just evolved apes, motion-wise, they move better than us on accidented grounds, but there's no proof they would run faster than a terran on flat ground (hey, maybe shivans lives in trees lol). They are made for close combat (the plasma gun is used onlt at close range, and they have those super claws), you can't have a weak creature do that in an army. And a creature that can stand a 1G environment IS weak.

As I said, I think the only gravity they ever feel is accelleration induced. You are correct though, that they have to be reasonably strong (overcoming the inertia of a 100K human with full kit is not lessened by zero-g after all) to toss people about.

On the other hand, they might be able to stand in 1G, but not move effectively. If they are arthropod in nature, there's no way they could stand in 1G. If, instead, they are vertebrate in nature and have external chitinous armor, they may be functional. The key is whether or noth they have an internal support structure that goes beyond the exoskeletal armor.

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Offline Fafner

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Originally posted by Fafner:
Any word on how things are progressing with Freespace FPS?

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Offline Nico

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael:
As I said, I think the only gravity they ever feel is accelleration induced. You are correct though, that they have to be reasonably strong (overcoming the inertia of a 100K human with full kit is not lessened by zero-g after all) to toss people about.

On the other hand, they might be able to stand in 1G, but not move effectively. If they are arthropod in nature, there's no way they could stand in 1G. If, instead, they are vertebrate in nature and have external chitinous armor, they may be functional. The key is whether or noth they have an internal support structure that goes beyond the exoskeletal armor.


well, I think in the techroom they say they have enhanced abilities thanx to implants. That can very well be servomotors or equivalent stuff. Shivans are cyborgs for sure (they are organic, but they have the energy claws and the plasma gun, plus I suspect those glowing eyes aren't natural lol), so one of the logical enhancement is to make them stronger than they already are (and I bet they're naturally damn strong, a beast of that size has to be strong, remember, any movement is exhausting for cosmaunots, i think zero G doesn't really helps, moving in such an environment requires a lot.
A closer exemple: fishes and other aquatic animals are to the vast majority very strong. The water resistance is not the reason, scientists have proven that in most cases their shpae, their skin etc allowed them to consider water density the same we consider air. They're strong because any movement requires a lot of energy.
Lol, i'm making all that stuff the same tiome I write it, and I'm convincing myself in fact  
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Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by venom2506:
well, I think in the techroom they say they have enhanced abilities thanx to implants. That can very well be servomotors or equivalent stuff. Shivans are cyborgs for sure (they are organic, but they have the energy claws and the plasma gun, plus I suspect those glowing eyes aren't natural lol), so one of the logical enhancement is to make them stronger than they already are (and I bet they're naturally damn strong, a beast of that size has to be strong, remember, any movement is exhausting for cosmaunots, i think zero G doesn't really helps, moving in such an environment requires a lot.
A closer exemple: fishes and other aquatic animals are to the vast majority very strong. The water resistance is not the reason, scientists have proven that in most cases their shpae, their skin etc allowed them to consider water density the same we consider air. They're strong because any movement requires a lot of energy.
Lol, i'm making all that stuff the same tiome I write it, and I'm convincing myself in fact  

 

It sounds good to me.   Very convincing.



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Offline Dark_4ce

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Duh, I should of thought of this before; If they couldn't be able to even walk in an 1G enviroment, why have legs? Let alone THREE!    
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Offline mikhael

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Originally posted by Dark_4ce:
Duh, I should of thought of this before; If they couldn't be able to even walk in an 1G enviroment, why have legs? Let alone THREE!    

You need legs--or extra arms--in zero G, else you can't move things. You have to have leverage and for leverage you have to anchor to something or push off from something. Legs allow for a wide base for pushing, and more contact points for pulling.

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Offline Dark_4ce

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Originally posted by mikhael:
You need legs--or extra arms--in zero G, else you can't move things. You have to have leverage and for leverage you have to anchor to something or push off from something. Legs allow for a wide base for pushing, and more contact points for pulling.


Yes, but the intelligence film of them clearly show that those legs were meant to be walked on. They are even placed in a tri formation to give maximum support. Why do that if they were not meant to walk on ground?

I would think a ZG entity would have softer appendages for which to use. IE tentacles. Easy to use and controllable. Like an octopus or jellyfish. They exists in a near ZG enviroment and have evolved to live it that sort of enviroment, through evolution. So if evolution had anything to do with Shivans, they would evolve to be the most efficient in a ZG enviroment right?. But the images of the shivans prove otherwise atleast for me.

But hey, I'm not saying that they're NOT meant for ZG, hell they must have redesigned themselves to be efficient in ZG as well, but I think the images show them to be land walking creatures as well.

 Most things also with exoskeletons happen to be very strong. IE, the ant, it can carry 40-50 its own body weight.So if we were to believe that the Shivans would be close to arachnids or dry land insects, wouldn't it be plausible that heatlhy adult shivans could carry their own weight? But on the other hand, if we would think that the Shivans were crustacean, IE crabs and lobsters, then there could be some other explanations. I personally believe that the Shivans might be closer to crustaceans because they could hold their own on land, but move exeptionally well in a ZG enviroment. Exoskeletons themselves are meant for support and/or protection, and most animals on Earth that have an exoskeleton walk or crawl, either on dry land, or on the sea bottom. (INHALE) So... What we got here are GIANT LOBSTERS!!  

[This message has been edited by Dark_4ce (edited 01-09-2002).]
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Offline Nico

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hehe, look at that:
   
if with that you tell me shivans are not made to run on the ground, and still think they're meant to swim in the void like octopus... can't help you  

About that ant thing, there's no way the shivan could carry a thing 50 times bigger than themselves. At this size, the weight ratio is completly different.
An exemple? wings couldn't support a man if they were not at least 5 or 6 meters large. a small sparrow can use small wings to carry his body, but notice that even idf the body isn't much bigger, the bigger the bird, the larger the wings (at exponentional rate, I mean). voila voila  


[This message has been edited by venom2506 (edited 01-09-2002).]
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Offline mikhael

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I'll stipulate to running and standing in gravity (but not in full gravity as I'll explain presently). That pic clearly shows them designed to lope along like a very angry mountain cat (minus a leg of course).

However, Dark 4ce, you forget that squids and the like don't ever real mass with those tentacles. You don't push loads with rope. You pull them, because you have no rigidity with which to push them. Bones and exoskeletons provide that.

Whilst an exoskeletal beast like an ant can indeed push up and carry a ridiculous multiple of its own mass, this has something to do with the size of the creature to begin with. Take a look at crabs sometime. You'll notice that hard shelled crabs don't get very large, and those that do are ponderous and slow. Shivans are not ponderous and slow. If you further examine arthropoda, you'll find very large creatures, like South American bird-eating spiders. Those can be as much as a foot long, but they lack an exoskeleton. They couldn't catch birds if they had one because their own exoskeleton would slow them down--or even render them immobile.

When dealing with the motive capacity of animals (humans and Shivans included) you deal with something called the square-cube rule. As the linear size of a volume increases, the rate of surface increase is the square of the linear increase, and the volume is the cube of that linear increase.

Imagine a 1m square. If you double its size to 2m*2m, the surface area doesn't go up linearly. The progression is a square function. When you start dealing with volume, it gets even uglier, as the progression is a cubic. when you double the dimensions of a 1m cube to 2m, you end up with eight times the volume, and consequently eight times the mass (2^3=8). Imagine the increase in mass required to bring your ant up to the size of a Shivan. Now imagine the how much more muscle tissue would be required to move that mass. At a certain point, no matter how much muscle you add, its own mass outstrips its own ability to move itself. Thats why there aren't any human sized exoskeletal beasts on the surface of the earth.

Venom pointed out the possibility of cybernetic enhancement as possible explanation, but I don't buy this theory. I agree, indeed, that Shivans probably tote around cybernetic enhancements in their bodies, but servo-motors for asissted movement? I think not. Imagine a growing shivan. He would have to have his servos replaced year after year. As there is no external evidence of these motors, they must be internal, and thus a shivan undergoes surgery regularly to upgrade his internal motive systems. Further, a Shivan whos cybernetic enhancements fail is stuck, unable to move under his own weight until his buddy, Carl the Shivan (not to name names) comes along and helps him to a doctor/mechanic.

All of that can be avoided, however, if you look to the example of ocean going arthropoda, such as giant sea crabs. When I lived in West Germany (for such was it called back in my day), we went to a natural science museum and saw a crab with legs longer than my entire body! How could such a beast support itself? Water is buoyant and sea water especially so. The water helps the sea crab support itself by lowering its effective weight. A shivan, adapted to low gravity, would not need water or servo-motor implants to move because he would not weigh as much. He would still have to overcome his own mass and inertia, but that's a different thing entirely.



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Offline Nico

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when i said servomotors, I gave a name that you would know. Probably the shivans have  way better tech than metal tubes put the ones in the others and little pumps. They could use organic enhanced structures greffed (sp?) opn their own  body, or they could actually use metal stuff, and nano botswould handle all the growing pbs, the failures and so on. I'm surprised you didn't think about such simple stuff, you seem to be a real scie fi reader  .
About your crab, look at the condor (sp?). The wings of this bird are wider than I'm tall, still the thing is way smaller than me (the body I mean). your arthropod can really weell support himself even out of water, I guess. I've seen industrial tools working on the same structure, coz it really gives them much stability in a "moving" environment (shakings, stuff like that in factories). They are on very long and very thin "legs", wide open, and they won't feel any shock even if you give a kick against the ground near them.
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Offline Dark_4ce

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Yeah, I've always agreed that the Shivans were supposed to be land based creatures. IE the three legs in a tri formation to allow maximum support. And I fully agree with the technological enhancements to allow themselves to support their own weight.

When I started talking about squids crabs, I was just looking at the question from another point. How would they survive if they really were evolved to live in a ZG enviroment. Seeing what a ZG entity MIGHT look like. But hey, this is FUN!   Look at all the biology were going into for a couple of pictures of an interely imaginary creature! So that it could be placed in a mod... heheheheh       I love it!
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Offline Nico

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Quote
Originally posted by Dark_4ce:
Yeah, I've always agreed that the Shivans were supposed to be land based creatures. IE the three legs in a tri formation to allow maximum support. And I fully agree with the technological enhancements to allow themselves to support their own weight.


In fac, reading that, I begin to believe that in fact, shivans evolved in an enviroment with more gravity than on earth...
And that could actually explain some thing: first, their incredible strengh: in space, they don't have the problem of gravity. But they would also have pbs with that, heart beating too strong and stuff like that ( same pb with our cosmonauts, but for a shivan, it would be even worse). So maybe the exosquelettons are not made to make them stronger, but to avoid them from going apart, to regulate their intern organs, stuff like that?
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Offline Shrike

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A biological spaceuit, in other words.  Armor, muscle attachment and cool shiny bits, all in one package.  
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Offline Dark_4ce

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EXACTLY!
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Offline mikhael

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I simply cannot buy the nanotech/cybernetic/augmented approach, unless that enhancement were engineered into the body genetically and was therefore part of the main germline and would be reproduced in children at conception. Any other means would be ridiculous, as there would be too much post-partem maintenence of the body. Further, nanotechnology comes at a ridiculous cost and risk. Nanomachinery builds up heat and are small. How do nanoscale machines exert macroscale forces? How do they provide strength?

As to your example of the condor (and your corollary about the crab), you are mistaken. Yes, a condor has a huge wingspan (the largest in the world, as I recall), but as you said, it has a body smaller than you. The square-cube law comes into effect again, this time combined with laws of aerodynamics. The larger the mass of the bird in question, the larger its wingspan must be to allow it enough lift for flight. The larger its wings get, the more massive it becomes. The more massive it becomes, the faster it must move to generate enough lift on its wings to hold it up. Birds take care of part of this problem by having hollow bones, to reduce mass. Jet liners solve this problem by attaching jets to provide speed to increase airflow to allow more lift, rather than increasing merely increasing wingspan. A bird cannot similarly achieve more lift or speed, because its paltry biological systems could not handle the effects. Air resistance would rip the feathers from the wings. The condor is near the limit of natural engineering. It could get a bit larger, but not too terribly much. The giant sea crab is still subject to its own weight without the buoyant effect of sea water, and still cannot walk on land.

The concept of a biological spacesuit is interesting. If this conjecture is true, it would mean that Shivans have gone back and reengineered themselves to have such a spacesuit, and thus are free from the constraints of landbound evolution. They may have started out as an endoskeletal creature, like a Terran ape, but redesigned themselves for space.

The principle of parsimony (also known as Occam's Razor) states, "one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything". In this case, nanotech, cybernetics, endoskeletal reinforcement of an existing exoskeleton, or fanciful genetic reengineering of the species is not necessary  to explain the biological nature of a Shivan. All we need is a low gravity, possibly arboreal, evolution. Arthropods can be larger in a low gravity without artificial aid. They would still need multiple legs to make their relatively low weight stable--three might be sufficient. They don't need to be especially strong, but like humans, would seem so in a microgravity environment. The exoskeleton would be a natural adaptation, rather than something engineered. Luminescent eyes are perfectly possible too, as many organisms are electrophorescent (fireflies, for example).

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[This message has been edited by mikhael (edited 01-10-2002).]

[This message has been edited by mikhael (edited 01-10-2002).]
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Offline Nico

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael:
I simply cannot buy the nanotech/cybernetic/augmented approach, unless that enhancement were engineered into the body genetically and was therefore part of the main germline and would be reproduced in children at conception. Any other means would be ridiculous, as there would be too much post-partem maintenence of the body. Further, nanotechnology comes at a ridiculous cost and risk. Nanomachinery builds up heat and are small. How do nanoscale machines exert macroscale forces? How do they provide strength?

As to your example of the condor (and your corollary about the crab), you are mistaken. Yes, a condor has a huge wingspan (the largest in the world, as I recall), but as you said, it has a body smaller than you. The square-cube law comes into effect again, this time combined with laws of aerodynamics. The larger the mass of the bird in question, the larger its wingspan must be to allow it enough lift for flight. The larger its wings get, the more massive it becomes. The more massive it becomes, the faster it must move to generate enough lift on its wings to hold it up. Birds take care of part of this problem by having hollow bones, to reduce mass. Jet liners solve this problem by attaching jets to provide speed to increase airflow to allow more lift, rather than increasing merely increasing wingspan. A bird cannot similarly achieve more lift or speed, because its paltry biological systems could not handle the effects. Air resistance would rip the feathers from the wings. The condor is near the limit of natural engineering. It could get a bit larger, but not too terribly much. The giant sea crab is still subject to its own weight without the buoyant effect of sea water, and still cannot walk on land.

The concept of a biological spacesuit is interesting. If this conjecture is true, it would mean that Shivans have gone back and reengineered themselves to have such a spacesuit, and thus are free from the constraints of landbound evolution. They may have started out as an endoskeletal creature, like a Terran ape, but redesigned themselves for space.

The principle of parsimony (also known as Occam's Razor) states, "one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything". In this case, nanotech, cybernetics, endoskeletal reinforcement of an existing exoskeleton, or fanciful genetic reengineering of the species is not necessary  to explain the biological nature of a Shivan. All we need is a low gravity, possibly arboreal, evolution. Arthropods can be larger in a low gravity without artificial aid. They would still need multiple legs to make their relatively low weight stable--three might be sufficient. They don't need to be especially strong, but like humans, would seem so in a microgravity environment. The exoskeleton would be a natural adaptation, rather than something engineered. Luminescent eyes are perfectly possible too, as many organisms are electrophorescent (fireflies, for example).



you read my post bad   (bad english, I know, don't know how to right that the right way) What you said about condors is what I said   (but you're wrong about the condor being at the limit of size for a flying creature, the prehistoric Quetzacoaltlus (sp?) spaned about 18 meters wide , and the body itseld was also very large ( bigger than a sheep, if I recall right )
For the nanobots, it was just a mean to check the mmechanical enhancements and make them "grow" with the shivans, nothing else (I don't buy either nanobots to make by themselves someone stronger, I don't even see how it could be possible, and you'd need huge amounts of them, as you said   )
For cost, I think shivans don't care about that  
And I don't see what would be the use of eyes illuminated like fireflies, would be rather annoying if you ask me   anyway, it's stated in the techroom that they do have mechanical stuff, and sight is probably one of the stuff you want to upgrade (night vision, farther sight, heat/UV/etc sight? )
SCREW CANON!