[mikhael]

Such large creatures as Quetzalcoatlus, and even the Pterandons and Pterydactyles could not fly. They would climb things and glide. There is no way such massive things could lift off from the ground under their own power.

I'm sorry I misinterpretted your post, however. *heh*

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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM

"Your guy was a little SQUARE! You had to use your IMAGINATION! There were no multiple levels or screens. There was just one screen forever and you could never win the game. It just kept getting harder and faster until you died. JUST LIKE LIFE." --Ernie Cline

[Nico]

 

Originally posted by mikhael:
Such large creatures as Quetzalcoatlus, and even the Pterandons and Pterydactyles could not fly. They would climb things and glide. There is no way such massive things could lift off from the ground under their own power.

I'm sorry I misinterpretted your post, however. *heh*

mmh, dunno, lots of things have been proved wrong, and climbing stuff really souns unlikely: i don't imagine those beasts walking for hours with two ridiculous legs and two gigantic but useless arms to climb anything, just to fly for a few minutes. This is so inefficient, a species like that would not have developped so many varieties, they would have either disappeared or evolved. And those flying lizards existed from Trais to Cretace (dunno names in english) so...
Anyway, it's not a thread about flying crocodiles  

[Dark_4ce]

I read somewhere, and this is TRUE, that they have scientifically proven that bees CANNOT fly, nor that Kangaroo's can jump. It was in some sort of article saying that science still doesen't have means to solve all the questions on Earth. I dunno where I read it, but it was funny as hell.  

On the shivan-suit theory, I'm thinking more on the lines of a bio-engineered suit. Like in ID4. Like being an actual extension of the body. I read in another post when someone said that the shivans might actually meld and become one with the fighter, giving them greater control, etc. Even the ships themselves seem to look somewhat "grown" so it would be plausible, that the bio-suit that they would wear, would in fact be either a seperate organism that the actual shivan would occupy or be some sort of bio-engineered extension, that would be given to them at a young age, and would grow with the Shivan inside. Meintenance would be kept at a low, since it would itself be "alive" so it could practically take care of itself. It would also lower the cost of producing these things (if they evn worry about) since they are grown.  

[mikhael]

 

Originally posted by venom2506:
mmh, dunno, lots of things have been proved wrong, and climbing stuff really souns unlikely: i don't imagine those beasts walking for hours with two ridiculous legs and two gigantic but useless arms to climb anything, just to fly for a few minutes. This is so inefficient, a species like that would not have developped so many varieties, they would have either disappeared or evolved. And those flying lizards existed from Trais to Cretace (dunno names in english) so...
Anyway, it's not a thread about flying crocodiles  

Triassic to Cretaceous. They didn't always have to climb up. Have you ever watched condors on wing? They glide on thermals. They don't necessarily climb all the way back up the mountain. They just don't land on flat ground where there's no nearby cliff from which to leap. Pterydactls and the like would like berhave similarly, climbing only when absolutely necessary.

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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM

"Your guy was a little SQUARE! You had to use your IMAGINATION! There were no multiple levels or screens. There was just one screen forever and you could never win the game. It just kept getting harder and faster until you died. JUST LIKE LIFE." --Ernie Cline

[Nico]

 

Originally posted by Dark_4ce:
I read somewhere, and this is TRUE, that they have scientifically proven that bees CANNOT fly, nor that Kangaroo's can jump. It was in some sort of article saying that science still doesen't have means to solve all the questions on Earth. I dunno where I read it, but it was funny as hell.  

On the shivan-suit theory, I'm thinking more on the lines of a bio-engineered suit. Like in ID4. Like being an actual extension of the body. I read in another post when someone said that the shivans might actually meld and become one with the fighter, giving them greater control, etc. Even the ships themselves seem to look somewhat "grown" so it would be plausible, that the bio-suit that they would wear, would in fact be either a seperate organism that the actual shivan would occupy or be some sort of bio-engineered extension, that would be given to them at a young age, and would grow with the Shivan inside. Meintenance would be kept at a low, since it would itself be "alive" so it could practically take care of itself. It would also lower the cost of producing these things (if they evn worry about) since they are grown.  

V stated that what we see are actual shivans, they're not inside anything and really looks the way they are. They don't have built suits or anything.
I'll still wonder where people find that shivans ships looks like they're being grown. I looked at those ships in every way, I looked at the hall fight cutscene many time. Nothing looks grown to me. that's built stuff.
Oh well, never mind.

[mikhael]

 

Originally posted by Dark_4ce:
I read somewhere, and this is TRUE, that they have scientifically proven that bees CANNOT fly, nor that Kangaroo's can jump. It was in some sort of article saying that science still doesen't have means to solve all the questions on Earth. I dunno where I read it, but it was funny as hell.  
...  

I don't know about kangaroos but bees and other such small insects do not 'fly' in the way birds and the like do. They do not produce aerodynamic lift. Instead they scoop air straight down or behind in order to produce vectored thrust (think of Harrier jet VTOLS).

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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM

"Your guy was a little SQUARE! You had to use your IMAGINATION! There were no multiple levels or screens. There was just one screen forever and you could never win the game. It just kept getting harder and faster until you died. JUST LIKE LIFE." --Ernie Cline

[Ace]

The low G, low light, arboreal planet was an idea I had for a while on the Shivans. About all we do know about the Shivans' environment is that they can operate in zero-gravity and within a hard vaccum.

On Shivan ships being grown, I do not see and have never seen any organic traits on Shivan ships. The hulls are metallic, and the luminous regions of the hull appear electronic in nature.

Now organic grafting and such I do think are likely technologies to be used by the Shivans, so minor adjustments might be common.


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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
 http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/

[Zeronet]

Asteroids? Non-carbon lifeforms do not require oxygen to breathe nor water to drink, although Asteroids can contain water.

[Nico]

 

Originally posted by Zeronet:
Asteroids? Non-carbon lifeforms do not require oxygen to breathe nor water to drink, although Asteroids can contain water.

how do you know? We know no non-carbon based life forms, there's none on earth, as far as we know.

[Starwing]

What do you mean by non-carbon lifeforms? If you're talking about silicon based life, there is no difference between them, except of the Si used in their biochemical processes , unlike the C we use.

[Slanker]

BTW: [V] can´t make anything FS anymore, because of Interplay...

[Dark_4ce]

 

Originally posted by venom2506:
V stated that what we see are actual shivans, they're not inside anything and really looks the way they are. They don't have built suits or anything.
I'll still wonder where people find that shivans ships looks like they're being grown. I looked at those ships in every way, I looked at the hall fight cutscene many time. Nothing looks grown to me. that's built stuff.
Oh well, never mind.

Ok, so they don't have a powersuit. But the tech room said that they had some sort of technology graphted into them! And on the ships being grown, they don't neccesarily need to look like giant potatoes in order to be grown. Metals can be "grown" if you use some sort of of nano-technology. We don't know exactly what kind of production technology they might have. But to me, some of the ships definitaly look like insects. (IE Mara) But I'm not ruling out, that the Shivans were just inspired to design their ships after them. I'm just speculating.

[mikhael]

 

Originally posted by Starwing:
What do you mean by non-carbon lifeforms? If you're talking about silicon based life, there is no difference between them, except of the Si used in their biochemical processes , unlike the C we use.

Except that when silicon forms those same sorts of chemicals as carbon does, the silicon based molecules are not as stable. The same broad categories of chemical reactions are possible, but not the exact same ones in all cases.


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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM

"Your guy was a little SQUARE! You had to use your IMAGINATION! There were no multiple levels or screens. There was just one screen forever and you could never win the game. It just kept getting harder and faster until you died. JUST LIKE LIFE." --Ernie Cline

[mikhael]

 

Originally posted by Dark_4ce:
Ok, so they don't have a powersuit. But the tech room said that they had some sort of technology graphted into them! And on the ships being grown, they don't neccesarily need to look like giant potatoes in order to be grown. Metals can be "grown" if you use some sort of of nano-technology. We don't know exactly what kind of production technology they might have. But to me, some of the ships definitaly look like insects. (IE Mara) But I'm not ruling out, that the Shivans were just inspired to design their ships after them. I'm just speculating.

You're adding complexity in an attempt to explain things. The Mara and the Sathanas are indeed very insectile in appearance, indeed, but consider that the Shivans are rather insect-like in appearance. They didn't have to grow ships, merely build them. For organic, grown-looking ships, no one beats the Vasudans.

We don't have to add nanotechnology into the solution. Rather, adding nanotech makes the Shivans more powerful than we know them to be. Why send a Sathanas, Lucifer or Ravana and why lose wing after wing of strike fighters and bombers when simple nanophages programmed to devour and replicate would be beyond the GTVA's means to counter? Grey goo would conquer in the absence of blue goo.
As far as technology grafted upon them, I'm willing to bet that the in-built plasma beam was the best, and most signifigant such addition. I believe the rest to be such things as personal communicators, medical telemetry devices, energy storage arrays, retinal projected HUDs and the like. They would be things that have a use outside of the fighter or combat, that have a use in society at large.

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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM

"Your guy was a little SQUARE! You had to use your IMAGINATION! There were no multiple levels or screens. There was just one screen forever and you could never win the game. It just kept getting harder and faster until you died. JUST LIKE LIFE." --Ernie Cline

[Dark_4ce]

 

Originally posted by mikhael:
You're adding complexity in an attempt to explain things.

Uhh... No. I'm not purposefully trying to make things complex in order to explain things. But if it sounded like that, I didn't mean to. I'm just interested thats all. Throwing in an idea here and there.

 Ok, I get you're point about the shivans using nanotechnology, that they could create some kinda cloud to digest everything, so we can forget about it. And you're also right about the Vasudan ships looking more grown than the Shivan's, I should have realised that. In all truth, all we got to go on is the HALLFIGHT, some techroom notes and some pics. So there's of room for speculation and theory. But I doubt were ever going to really find out what they're made of and who they really are. Except that they're the bad guy, they're ugly, and they got some cool ships. Maybe we should just cherish the mystery?  

[This message has been edited by Dark_4ce (edited 01-11-2002).]

[mikhael]

 

Originally posted by Dark_4ce:
...But I doubt were ever going to really find out what they're made of and who they really are. Except that they're the bad guy, they're ugly, and they got some cool ships. Maybe we should just cherish the mystery?  

But.. but... that's no fun! Besides, to REALLY cherish the memory, we have to discuss it, and come up with all kinds of wierd comparitive xenobiological theories to explain it. *grin*

These drawn out speculative threads are what I like about a good board, like HLP. We've gone for several days now, discussing the possible biology and evolution of an alien that had, all up, less than a minute of screen time. The fact that the discussion is possible is a testament to  's ability to create something with meaning and value to it's audience and the fact that the discussion has remained civil and thought out is a testament to HLP's basic maturity and intelligence.

Don't stop speculating! *heh*

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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM

"Your guy was a little SQUARE! You had to use your IMAGINATION! There were no multiple levels or screens. There was just one screen forever and you could never win the game. It just kept getting harder and faster until you died. JUST LIKE LIFE." --Ernie Cline

[Dark_4ce]

 

Don't stop speculating! *heh*

Heheheh   ok! So, how about reproduction? Do think theres a hive queen? Or via the good ol' fashion way? Since I'm still sticking to my theory that they're atleast in some parts mechanical, that the queen would lay the eggs, and when they would hatch, a worker drone would outfit the Shivan accordingly. But I don't personally think there would be a hive brain, either.

[This message has been edited by Dark_4ce (edited 01-12-2002).]

[Dark_4ce]

Hmm, probably the cloning would sound the most likeliest. Since it would lower or zero the chances of any genetic mutation or flaws to the species.   That would be quite scary to look at too. Rows upon rows of cloning vats with shivans inside. Why does the human crops scene in "the Matrix" come to mind?...

[Starwing]

They would need very good cloning technologies to make sure that no genetical defects would appear. After all, you are playing around with DNA (or whatever Shivans have  ) and mechanical devices.

[mikhael]

The subject of a 'queen' is a hard one, as it is almost inexorably linked to the 'hive' concept.

Lets look at behaviour: do we ever see Shivans retreat? They throw ship after ship after ship at the GTVA. Sometimes they're badly outnumbered, but they don't run (that I can remember!). They are willing to die for their cause, whatever it is.

The queen-and-hive and the hive-mind concept works well with that. Neal Stephenson wrote that 'for ants, there are only two numebers: some and none'. In social or biological structure in which individual welfare is less developed than societal/biological welfare, 'some or none' is a valid model. Shivans can kill themselves wantonly, because individually they are 'none' and they need to die in larger numbers to become 'some'.

In a more individualised, less specialised society, one in which biological reproduction isn't centralised in a queen, any pair of individuals can produce offspring and thus continue the species. The problem with this is that individualised/unspeciaised species reproduce more slowly, due to the fact that there are no dedicated biological factories (queens). Slower reproduction means more incentive to live to reproduce. Shivans who were more individual would be more apt to retreat.

The final problem that comes into play is that collective biologies have is that there is not evolutionary pressure toward individual sentience. As has been pointed out in the Shivan Sociology thread, ants and bees and other collective biologies exhibit traits, practices and abilities found in individuals of generalised species (like humans). This is a case of the hive adapting to circumstances, not the individuals. Again, 'some or none' comes into play.

I'd like to think that somehow the Shivan's bucked the trend of hive biology. I think they started out as a hive biology but changed over time to adapt to a larger, more dangerous universe. Imagine that they are a hive species, but that the hives are smaller, maybe a few dozen or so. They aren't a hive mind, but more like a family unit. In such a system, the 'some or none' concept breaks down completely and real numbers, and therefor individual survival, becomes of benefit to the species. Small hives can specialise but the species as a whole becomes generalised, and thus more robust.

A step further, a mini-hive structure allows for a development of cooperation between hives. Eventually this cooperation becomes reliance and could lead to a hive-of-hives (nation) model. In this way, we can have biological 'queens' of hives, but avoid the it for the species. We can avoid the 'hive-mind' idea as well.

All of this dovetails nicely with my belief in a low-gravity, arboreal, insect-like development for Shivans.  


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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM

"Your guy was a little SQUARE! You had to use your IMAGINATION! There were no multiple levels or screens. There was just one screen forever and you could never win the game. It just kept getting harder and faster until you died. JUST LIKE LIFE." --Ernie Cline