Author Topic: A First Person (T-Rated) Shooter for a FS3  (Read 15257 times)

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Offline mikhael

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A First Person (T-Rated) Shooter for a FS3
 
Quote
Originally posted by Dark_4ce:
The Shivans aren't running scared. But, I don't see them as socially organized to the point that they're playing videogames and fliping shivan equivelant of burgers. I think they're whole society goes around expansion and conquest.

To describe Shivan society as being based 'around expansion and conquest' is to reduce them back to one dimensional beasts, the boogeymen of the interstellar closet and the yawning void of Under the Bed. I must disagree with this, because it makes them into cardboard cutouts, mere monsters.

Using earth as a basis for comparison, I have to think that you are entirely incorrect. Never in the entire history of civilisation on our little backwater of a planet, has there been a culture that was devoted entirely to the military. All cultures have had civilians, even the Spartans of Greece.

The best option for an entirely militaristic society is either a hive mind (in which we have no dissent) or a brutal military dictatorship. I think we've determined that the first is distasteful. As for the second, it doesn't fit in with the Ancients' monologues either. Where does 'Great Preservers' come in when describing a race bent on expansion and conquest? Besides that, if they were bent on conquest, why have they not occupied the systems they have defeated?




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--Mik
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"Your guy was a little SQUARE! You had to use your IMAGINATION! There were no multiple levels or screens. There was just one screen forever and you could never win the game. It just kept getting harder and faster until you died. JUST LIKE LIFE." --Ernie Cline
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Offline Dark_4ce

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael:

Using earth as a basis for comparison, I have to think that you are entirely incorrect. Never in the entire history of civilisation on our little backwater of a planet, has there been a culture that was devoted entirely to the military. All cultures have had civilians, even the Spartans of Greece.


I just can't compare the Shivans to humans. But I guess I just see them as monsters. Very smart and rutheless mosnters. Monsters with advanced technology... I don't see them as having a very complex social structure. All thats enough for me on their sociology is that THEY'RE EVIL!! For me at least. Dunno if they really are, but anyway...

Back to the original reason why this all started, would the RF engine be good enough to render a Shivan?   ;D
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Offline Zeronet

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They conquer Nodes, not planets.
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Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet:
They conquer Nodes, not planets.

We have no real proof of that. Did they maintain a presence at the node near Vasuda Prime? They certainly 'conquered' that one. We don't know why they do what they do, and I, for one don't think it has any thing to do with conquest.

Dark_4ce, if they're just monsters, than where's the meat? As monsters, Shivans are like the antagonist in a ghost story told around a campfire. They're scary when the only light is the flickering flames between you and the story teller and the night is at your back, but they lose their potency when the sun rises.

I want my Shivans to be complex, powerful and disturbingly familiar. I want them to be so human that I identify with them a little, even whilst they drop out of the inkyblack and rip my wingmen to shreds. Villains are always better when you can see the good bits about them and still see them do horrible evil things anyway.
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--Mik http://www.404error.com
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM

"Your guy was a little SQUARE! You had to use your IMAGINATION! There were no multiple levels or screens. There was just one screen forever and you could never win the game. It just kept getting harder and faster until you died. JUST LIKE LIFE." --Ernie Cline

[This message has been edited by mikhael (edited 01-14-2002).]
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Offline Dark_4ce

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael:

I want my Shivans to be complex, powerful and disturbingly familiar. I want them to be so human that I identify with them a little, even whilst they drop out of the inkyblack and rip my wingmen to shreds. Villains are always better when you can see the good bits about them and still see them do horrible evil things anyway.

Yeah, I can see what you mean. Like the quote "The most dangerous man, is the man who believes he's doing the right thing."
But you've reminded me of that tv series that was on a couple of years ago, called Space: Above and Beyond. Actually, come to think of it, the plot in that series is really quite similar to the FS plot. For those who have not seen Above and Beyond, the plot in a nut shell is this:

A deep human colony is attacked by an alien threat. Soon afterwards, the attacking alien force heads towards Earth, and an all scale war breaks out between the humans and the "chigs"(aliens). Yada yada yada, a bunch of recruits join the army, learn how to fly in hammerhead fighters (damn cool, tried to start a campaign on FS on it, but had little support. Still have a couple of ship renders though) and take on the chigs. Actually, many episodes are done as if they were ripped out of a game, lots of briefings, detail instruction, and then kickass space battles. Ofcourse they had other developments in the series, but the dogfighting had to be the best.
 http://www.alphacompany.com/images/kschig5.jpg

As you can see these Chigs are covered in armour from head to toe, so you're only left with you're imagination as to what lay inside. Also, very little, is known about them, social wise and biology wise. HOWEVER, in the end of the season a ground braking discovery is made. First, the Chigs did not infact attack. They deffended themselves, because the planets that were being colonised were all ready inhabited by Chigs, and Earth Intelligence knew this, yet said nothing. Second, the Chigs happened to be very similar to humans after all, having the same genetic makeup as a human(I forgot why). Third, you get to see what one looks it, kinda ugly, but nothing like you'd expect.

Before, when you didn't know what they were like, you knew them to only be evil and didn't mind seeing them getting shot to hell... But after this event, it became clear who and what they were, and most importantly Why they were doing the things they did.

Anyway, we discover that the Chigs are not evil, which is not the case with Shivans, I think. But I understand what you mean, if they are like us, and WE know what WE can do, yeah, I'd be running scared. But I dunno, I like to think that we are still better than them.  
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Starwing

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A First Person (T-Rated) Shooter for a FS3
The moon they originate from had it's origin in a collision of an asteroid with earth. They fought for Earth because of the same reason humans did, because it's their origin.  

 

Offline Dark_4ce

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Oh yeaaaah!  
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Offline Nico

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Yeah, Space above and beyond  
It was shown in France too (tho it was called Space 2051 I think). Well, we did know they weren't "pure" evil before the end, anyway: in one episode, there's that guy (the in vitro) on his own on a planet, he's attacked by the chigs, and don't remember what happens, but he saves one of them, and this one did behave friendly (but, of course, he was killed at the end). The shig ships reminds me a lot of shivan ships, no?   They're all converted for Starlancer ( hammerhead included). They had some nifty weapons, like this missile that had a gun in it as well as a warhead  
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline Dark_4ce

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Yeah, I remember that episode. The Chig gave him those ID tags the wear, as a gift or something. But then in the end, when he died, the In vitro put it back on him, when he buried him. That was a sad one. It also had a few scenes where you start to question if the Chigs in fact were evil. Like looking up at the birds and enjoying the scenery. This might make you go "so what" but if you think about it, most of the time the aliens are portraid as beings who don't give a rat's ***  about the scenery, or just being plain old evil and start taking pot shots at the birds. Yeah it was also called Space 2043 here.

My favorite had to be the Ace Chig's Stealth Fighter, with the "Abandon all hope" written on the side and crude skull painted on the front.

   

Yeah, you're right they do remind me of Shivan designs. Except the Chig's cap ships were damn aweful. Like giant diamonds, flying slowly. They could have added a bit more "variety" to them.
But I still think that it would make one kickass campaign. I even remember being asked to put it up into HLP, but I couldn't get anyone to help me out with the campaign, and I didn't want to give an empty promise. *sigh* But... Maybe if I don't bother to start on my Shivan campaign, maybe I'll start on S:AAB instead. If anyone is bothered that is.  
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Offline Zeronet

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Chig's were scary, i didnt get to see the last epsiodes but one sticks in my mind. Where they are hiding in dead bodies and the Chigs are cutting them up making sure the humans are all dead.
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Offline Nico

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yeah, the whole idea around "abandon all hope" was damn cool, but I prefer the normal fighter designs actually, w/o round parts. I don't remember quite much the capships, but what I remember didn't look like diamonds? My memory may mess up completly on this one ( was quite some time ago), but IO remember them as two building like structures with a dent between them, all vertical stuff. I thought they looked original, and well, I like originality  
The shuttle they use in one mission, too, looks cool (damn, it was a two parts episode, I missed the second one hargh!).
Mmh, I still wonder what happened to, Vansen... Aaaah, Vansen  
SCREW CANON!

 

Starwing

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Vansen is death, I think. The only two that survived were Hawkes (the In Vitro) and the guy who was searching for his girlfriend. The others died while rescuing the girlfriend and the other POWs.

 

Offline Nico

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mmh, Dempouss and the asian guy died for sure, but vansen crashed on the planet. It already happened before in the series I think and they didn't die.
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Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by Dark_4ce:
...It also had a few scenes where you start to question if the Chigs in fact were evil. Like looking up at the birds and enjoying the scenery. This might make you go "so what" but if you think about it, most of the time the aliens are portraid as beings who don't give a rat's ***  about the scenery, or just being plain old evil and start taking pot shots at the birds...

That's it right there: the very essence of what I want in a villain, and why I think the Shivans aren't just monsters. Nothing is scaryier than a man with a cause, with the righteous belief (however wrong it may be) that what he is doing is the Right Thing (tm, patent pending).

I earnestly believe that the Shivans aren't monsters, but people, and that they believe that wiping us out of the universe is the Right Thing (tm, patent pending). We're feral. We kill other races for territory and resources. I think they look at us as  some diseased hive that has lost its collective mind and needs to be put down before it harms anything else. I think the Ancients' were the same and that's why the Monologues say 'Great Preservers' as well as 'Great Destroyers'.

------------------
--Mik
http://www.404error.com
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM

"Your guy was a little SQUARE! You had to use your IMAGINATION! There were no multiple levels or screens. There was just one screen forever and you could never win the game. It just kept getting harder and faster until you died. JUST LIKE LIFE." --Ernie Cline
[I am not really here. This post is entirely a figment of your imagination.]

 

Offline Dark_4ce

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I know what you mean. But if I start to think that the Shivan's are any less Evil, than I think they are, I'll start to feel sorry for them. And I might hesitate when I pull the trigger. Oh no... Now when I close in for the killing blow of a Shivan Cap-ship I'll start to think of all the little Shivan's who won't see their father's anymore, and all those family's getting the "We regret to inform you that you're son/daughter/husband/wife/mate/drone was killed/blown up/de-exoskeletized/MIA after fighting the enemy/Vasudans/Terrans. He/She died in the name of the great Cockroach and/or his/our cause. Sorry."  

[This message has been edited by Dark_4ce (edited 01-15-2002).]
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Offline Nico

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mmh, a thing about that great preservers/destroyers story. That's just Ancient stuff. I think the one who was talking was a bit high... They didn't know anything. It's pure speculations, just like we do right now.
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Offline Ace

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They conquer Nodes, not planets.

We have no real proof of that. Did they maintain a presence at the node near Vasuda Prime? They certainly 'conquered' that one. We don't know why they do what they do, and I, for one don't think it has any thing to do with conquest.


It is stated extremely clearly in FreeSpace 1 that the Shivans secure sub-space node clusters.

Shivans have never been seen landing on a planet or using them for any purpose, they seem to have no interest in collecting resources.

Generally the Shivans outright annihilate planets, such as with Vasuda Prime and the planet in the Deneb system we see in the FS2 intro.

------------------
Ace
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Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by Ace:

It is stated extremely clearly in FreeSpace 1 that the Shivans secure sub-space node clusters.

Shivans have never been seen landing on a planet or using them for any purpose, they seem to have no interest in collecting resources.

Generally the Shivans outright annihilate planets, such as with Vasuda Prime and the planet in the Deneb system we see in the FS2 intro.


Which is exactly my point. They don't take the systems. They clean them out. And then all they do is prevent anyone from coming through. They can hardly be said to 'conquer' in the classic sense. You don't 'conquer' a river. You conquer nations, or in this case, planets. They're defending the passes and the rivers to prevent others from using them. Its a semantic difference, but one which I believe is critical to understanding the Shivans (at least the way I picture them).

------------------
--Mik
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ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM

"Your guy was a little SQUARE! You had to use your IMAGINATION! There were no multiple levels or screens. There was just one screen forever and you could never win the game. It just kept getting harder and faster until you died. JUST LIKE LIFE." --Ernie Cline
[I am not really here. This post is entirely a figment of your imagination.]

 

Offline TDM/JM

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Bloody heck, people, it's obvious: The Shivans are AI smartweapons for an extremely sophisticated species coreward -- who have examined all of the options for security, and have determined that the safest galaxy is one empty of intelligent (and threatening) life.

So now you've got plots for FS3 through FS5, at least.

Been out of the USA and away from the keyboard for over a month. What's happening?

A.

 

Offline Dark_4ce

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Quote
Originally posted by TDM/JM:
Bloody heck, people, it's obvious: The Shivans are AI smartweapons for an extremely sophisticated species coreward -- who have examined all of the options for security, and have determined that the safest galaxy is one empty of intelligent (and threatening) life.

So now you've got plots for FS3 through FS5, at least.

Been out of the USA and away from the keyboard for over a month. What's happening?

A.

Hmmm... Even though I consider them more of a expand/conquest species, They're surely not AI smart weapons. They're living breathing creatures. Yes, with some engineered advances, but no the less alive. And I don't we've been discussing plot in any case. Only what and who the Shivans are.
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