[aldo_14]

Why would a europe with a substantial muslim population be a bad thing, again?

For the same reason that Egypt with 20% of the population being first or second generation European would be a bad thing - it would cease being, or if not cease than decrease the degree to which it is, Europe. Say what you will, from any scientific POV Europe's identity is white and Christian. It also has a distinctly different heritage than most African and Middle-Eastern countries, not better or worse just different - the Renaissance, enlightenment, industrial revolution, a specific form of government etc. Different places have different identities, and if you mix them together too much you end up losing the uniqueness of the place. I am as opposed to immigration from Algeria to France as I am from France to Algeria. A sort of nationalism is favour or no one and everyone.

If you think that there's nothing wrong with unlimited immigration, ask yourself what Syria would think about having 2 million Germans living in the country. Or what

Cut off?

A country is nothing more than a reflection of the individuals comprising it.  What is 'europe'?  Can you distill it and put it in a bottle?  Write it down and stick it on a label?

[IPAndrews]

Why would a europe with a substantial muslim population be a bad thing, again?

You're an enigma to me Aldo. You're clearly very intelligent. You put across your arguments effectively and eloquently. The thing that confuses me is what you choose to argue about. Take the above quote for example. I mean you can't actually be serious? You would have to have been walking around with your eyes shut and your fingers in your ears for the last decade to need to ask that question. Or are you just playing devil's advocate?

[aldo_14]

Why would a europe with a substantial muslim population be a bad thing, again?

You're an enigma to me Aldo. You're clearly very intelligent. You put across your arguments effectively and eloquently. The thing that confuses me is what you choose to argue about. Take the above quote for example. I mean you can't actually be serious? You would have to have been walking around with your eyes shut and your fingers in your ears for the last decade to need to ask that question. Or are you just playing devil's advocate?

Explain to me why Muslims are Bad People to be worried about.  Why should I be scared of one religion above another?  Why is a substantial Muslim population bad?  Is a substantial Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Sikh or Hindu population bad?

More importantly, why not answer the question rather than ask whether I'm serious?

[IPAndrews]

You are serious.

 

[aldo_14]

Still no answer, I see, just smart-arsed smilies.

[IPAndrews]

Debating the question with you would be pointless. I've read enough of the threads you've participated in to know that I will never change your opinion on anything. Neither do I feel there's a need to try and convince others reading this thread to think the way I do as I am reasonably sure they do already. So sorry. You're not going to get a long drawn out debate out of me. Just smilies .

[aldo_14]

Thank you for your eternally useful, illuminative and insightful contribution, then.  I'm gad I gained such a rich and extensive understanding of your clearly well thought out set of opinions, thanks to the welter of explanation & support offered for such a concise and fact-filled statement.  It's so refreshing to see someone with such strength of conviction as to place their positions under the microscope for discussion.

Oh, wait........

[Bobboau]

ok, let me answer, what would be so bad about a world were you have died? nothing per se, however, a world with you in it would be better from your perspective I would assume, a world were Europe has been over run by any outside culture be it Muslim, Chinese, Martian is bad, not because the new culture of Europe is bad but because the old one is gone.

I think you have now proven my thesis on why ethnocentrism is a required trait for a culture to survive for me better than I ever would have myself, thank you.

[aldo_14]

ok, let me answer, what would be so bad about a world were you have died? nothing per se, however, a world with you in it would be better from your perspective I would assume, a world were Europe has been over run by any outside culture be it Muslim, Chinese, Martian is bad, not because the new culture of Europe is bad but because the old one is gone.

I think you have now proven my thesis on why ethnocentrism is a required trait for a culture to survive for me better than I ever would have myself, thank you.

huh?

A cultural shift created by an altered demographic is not an 'invasion'.  An invasion is short, sharp, and sudden.  All cultures have underwent seismic changes throughout history due to immigration, social changes, and many other factors.  Singling out Muslims as bad in this respect is no fairer than stating allowing hispanic or black people to emigrate to the United States is bad. 

But I'd like to hear the 'old culture' defined for europe; what is being 'overrun', anyways?  Culture undergoes continuous flux from the introduction of new ideas and historical events.

Why is there this assumption that immigration automatically causes schism rather than adaptation.  for all the noisy protests by Muslims - or other ethnic or religious groups - there are 10 times more Muslims quietly living their lives out, perfectly settled and happy, who do nothing more than contribute to European (select specific country here...) culture than a similarly quiet, settled white Christian.

[TrashMan]

I'm not at all surprised by this development.

While in western countries hte people are well off, the cost of raising a child and educating it are sky-high.
What can you expect - in a capitalistic world the goal is to get every last penny from the sucker you call customer.
And what better way to earm money than on things parently will practicly never skimp - children.
Just look at the cost of baby/kids stuff and tell me they aren't overinflated.
Just look at the cost of College today.

[Flipside]

Don't bother Aldo, I've already pointed out the faults in the research and the arrogance in assuming that Europe is like the Stereotypes assume, but that doesn't sound as 'juicy' so everyones ignoring it.

[aldo_14]

The concept of 'europe' as some sort of homogenistic culture alone is laughable.

[Blaise Russel]

not because the new culture of Europe is bad but because the old one is gone.

If a culture requires special protection to maintain it, then perhaps it is not worth keeping in the first place.

[Flipside]

The concept of 'europe' as some sort of homogenistic culture alone is laughable.

Better still is the original authors assumption that ALL of Europe has a 'unmanageable' welfare system. And I'm still convinced that he used the phrase 'importing babies' purely because it sounds borderline offensive and has no relation whatsoever to what actually happened.

I'm half surprised the Author of that report didn't add 'It's full of Fags and French people too!'.

[vyper]

About those pesky French...

[Flipside]

Yeah, France had a bad run of things, there were the riots, then they tried to put in the employment laws that the rest of the youths didn't like, and now on the anniversary of the riots you always get a few. Unfortunately, once you make it 'trendy' to riot, it becomes more of a problem

[aldo_14]

The concept of 'europe' as some sort of homogenistic culture alone is laughable.

Better still is the original authors assumption that ALL of Europe has a 'unmanageable' welfare system. And I'm still convinced that he used the phrase 'importing babies' purely because it sounds borderline offensive and has no relation whatsoever to what actually happened.

I'm half surprised the Author of that report didn't add 'It's full of Fags and French people too!'.

It's interesting looking into his background; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Steyn and some of his quotes;
"We're told the old-school imperialists were racists, that they thought of the wogs as inferior. But, if so, they at least considered them capable of improvement. The multiculturalists are just as racist. The only difference is that they think the wogs can never reform: Good heavens, you can't expect a Muslim in Norway not to go about raping the womenfolk! Much better just to get used to it." — "Battered Westerner Syndrome inflicted by myopic Muslim defenders," column, 23 August 2002

To all extents he's racist against people from Muslim countries and views them as having an inferior culture which, er, 'superior' western culture cannot withstand competing with.  Or something.

[Cyker]

Lots of you guys really ain't into this whole multi-cultural thing are you?

This whole thing is mostly bunk anyway, just the usual migration pattern of 'stuff'.

Hell, in the UK we've seen a surge of Polish guys coming over here to find work. There's lots of complaining because they put UK guys out of work, but that's just the way capitalism works.

I find it amusing that some of you complaining about 'muslims taking over' are the same ones that were wailing on the UK for not wanting to adopt the Euro as the primary currency.

They are both similar assimilatamatory events.

Groups merge and groups divide, that's just the way of the world.

The trick is in influencing what does and what doesn't to your (or your country/religion/organised crime syndicate/other arbitrary affiliated-group)'s advantage...


Personally, I think we need a good bit of global thermo nuclear war!
Nothing like a bit of life-threatening adversity to pull people together!

(Disclaimer: Since there are people out there who probably are that stupid, this is for you: That was a joke. And also I have been playing DEFCON too much... )

[Flipside]

Yup, of the 58 million people in the UK, an astounding 4million come from other ethnicities, and that's all ethnicities, Pakistani, Indian, Non-English European, not just the Middle East.

[aldo_14]

Yup, of the 58 million people in the UK, an astounding 4million come from other ethnicities, and that's all ethnicities, Pakistani, Indian, Non-English European, not just the Middle East.

There was an anecdote I read in a recent Herald anecdote, about an MP in Falkirk accosted by a constituent loudly complaining about 'Polish immigrants stealing our jobs'. 

Rough immigration levels to Falkirk; 0

The problem is that all this 'information' comes from a media which focuses on crises and controversy, and which is often dominated by middle-England,somewhat bigoted reactionaries (and which panders to the same type of people).  It's easier to sell 'multiculturalism dooms us all' than 'well, we're actually ok' on the newstands, after all.....