[Bob-san]

Well it's not quite an upgrade... more of a complete replacement.

Here it is, in short...

ECS nForce 570 SLIT-A v5.1 NVIDIA Socket 775 ATX
Intel Core 2 Duo E6300 (to be overclocked to 3+ghz)
1024MB PC-4200 (533MHz) DDR2 Memory (to be overclocked to speeds of at least 667mhz (pc5400)
Ultra V-Series 400-Watt ATX Power Supply, SATA-Ready
XFX GeForce 7600 GS / 256MB GDDR2 / PCI Express / Dual DVI Video Card (it's at special... a hold-me-over card for 3 years of gaming, until next nextgen midrange comes out)
Seagate / 320GB / 7200RPM / 16MB Cache / SATA-300 / OEM Hard Drive
Ultra Wizard Black ATX Mid-Tower Case
Lite-on SHD-16P1S / 16x DVD-ROM / 48x CD-ROM / Black / Internal / Retail Drive
Logitech X-530 70-watt 5.1 Speakers
Cooler Master / Hyper L3 / Socket 775 / Heat Pipe / Core 2 Duo CPU Cooling Fan
Masscool 120mm Sleeve Bearing Case Fan (3-pin Motherboard and 4-pin Molex)
Masscool 80mm Sleeve Bearing Case Fan (3-pin Motherboard and 4-pin Molex)

**Operating System (when released)**
Windows Vista Home Premium OEM (for full dual-core support)
$110


Total cost for PC components... $550-$590 with rebates, $670-$610 without rebates.
Add in OEM operating system brings it up to $660-700 or $780-820.

I will use WinXP OEM from another computer to run this PC for about a month (until it expires). Then I'll look at either complete reinstall or getting Vista.

[Fineus]

A couple of things spring out at me about what is essentially a solid upgrade. They do however depend on what you want to do with your new machine:

1. Your RAM. A lot of games really benefit from 2GB these days.. it might be worth considering making that leap.

2. The 7600GS is quite a budget card. Could I suggest the 7600GT instead? It's the same card that I have and I can promise you it's a very good card indeed.

3. 320GB is a lot of hard drive space! If you're looking to trim some cash off... drop that number to 200GB and invest in a DVD writer / some DVDs instead for backing up any large files.

Other than that it looks to be a solid system. I wouldn't be too anxious to upgrade to Vista untill they've sorted any bugs that might come with it - but that's entirely your call.

[Taristin]

I quite like Vista. My only complaint with it is ATi actually. They seem to suck at making drivers for Vista.

[Flipside]

I'd also recommend splitting your hard drive space between 2 drives, rather than putting all your eggs in one basket. Though I sincerely hope you never experience HDD failure, it's probably safer to have more smaller drives than one enormous one.

[Bob-san]

Ok to address your points, Kalfireth...

1. 1GB of RAM is enough for a while. I'm not pouring my pocket into this system, so I'm not expecting speeds that make my eyes pour out. When I get a job and have about $150 in cash, I'll go find a matching memory module and upgrade to 2GB.

2. Yes, it is a budget card. It's at the local CompUSA for about $30, so I want to try to get it this week.

3. 320GB IS of hard drive space. However, I looked for price per gigabyte, internal cache, and interface speed. I decided that the name-brand Seagate was good, as it had a few rebates on it. It runs 7200RPM like standard drives, has a 16MB cache, and uses Serial-ATA 3G (300).

Anyways, this will be my first build. My last computer was built by my uncle, who is now out of current-gen computer trends. I decided that this system that I'm asking for is a grand update.

Here is my current system.

Intel D845PESV Socket 478 ATX
Intel Celeron 2.0GHz, retail, clocked at stock
512MB PC-2100 DDR Memory (started with 256mb, upgraded to 1gb, then downgraded to 512mb because one of the DIMM's burnt out)
300-Watt power supply, bundled with case
PNY GeForce FX 5200, 128MB of graphics memory (DDR I think, I don't know) (started with ATI Radeon 7000, 32mb)
80GB Hard Drive, 7200RPM, 8MB Cache, Parallel ATA-?
Cheap budget case, bundled with power supply
50x CD-ROM Drive, beige
Altec Lansing, 2.1 speaker system
Stock CPU cooling fan
80mm case fan, using 4-pin Molex

As you can see, it's a piece of junk compared to anything modern. DIMM 1 burnt out, MemTest 86+ freezes the system, and the APG is only at 4X speeds with sideband.


I'll tell my uncle who is buying the parts to just get WinXP Home. I'll get Vista if I ever upgrade on this system. WinXP is still in until the next OS (after Vista) is released. I'm just concerned because the ECS motherboard supports 16GB, and WinXP doesn't (though Win Vista Home Prem. does support 16GB)

Here is the memory upgrade idea...

1. Start with 1GB
2. Upgrade with 1GB more, 2GB total
3. Upgrade with 4GB more (2GBx2, when those are mainstream), 6GB total
4. Replace one of the 1GB modules when a 4GB module is mainstream, 9GB total
5. Replace the other 1GB module with a 4GB module when I have money, 12GB total

That should be as long as it lasts... i'd end up with 4GBx2 and 2GBx2 for 12GB total. Around then I should be using another computer, and only upgrade if I want to use it as a server or something.

Anyways I'll think about a 7600GT or a low-priced 7800/7900. I doubt I'll get either... I was looking to see when GeForce 8600 (the first mid-range DX10 card) will go on sale. I don't want a 8200 or 8300, and the 8800 is currently very overpriced. I'm willing to shell out some $200 for a good mid-range DX10 card, but definately not $500-700 for a high-end DX10 card. I expect that the GeForce 8(2/3)00 will be about as good as a GeForce 7600 is. I'll upgrade later... if I can get even 3 years out of a mid-range current-gen card, I'll be happy to get even that long.


Taristin....
I don't like AMD/ATI. It's no real problem with me. My beef with Vista is going to be getting drivers for it when it's released. I will probably just go with WinXP Home and pass-over the Vista buzz.

Flipside....
Data security isn't a major thing for me. I already have an external DVD burner (a LG SuperMulti, a very good burner! I recommend it!!) but I wanted an internal DVD-ROM for future games. My current internal CD-ROM drive shows its age... it's not a very good drive either... it seems to allow discs to "bounce" around in it (I am scared to use it... I usually just pop discs into the external drive since that's high quality stuff...). Anyways... if there is HDD failure, I can send it back to Seagate for replacement. If that doesn't work, a full reinstall of everything from backups... it will piss me off for about a week, but i'll get over it. I've already had WinXP reinstalled 3 times by my uncle. I have to learn about it and do it myself. Besides... when I have money I'll spend on a RAID5 array.

Oh and it's actually statistically less drive failures when doing a RAID0 (1 large drive). A RAID1 (2 large drives) has twice as many drive failures. A RAID5 (4 drives) have a whopping four times as many drive failures! Trust me... I've heard about it. My uncle works in a cable company and part of it is broadband internet. He told me about their massive RAID15 arrays. Here it is in short...

16 hard drives total.
8 hard drives in each RAID5.
Each RAID5 is connected by RAID1.
Each hard drive is a 74GB or 150GB, 10,000RPM hard drive on SCSI. They fail so often that they end up replacing one about once every month. The RAID15 is in a striping parity, and serves as a 1080p HDTV movie server for the iControl system. The movies need to be read quickly, so each SCSI controller is a computer inside a server.

[CP5670]

You aren't going to get much of an overclock on that ECS board. The cheapest one that hits good FSBs is the Gigabyte DS3 for about $130. Since you're on a tight budget, drop the extra heatsink and just use the stock one, and put the money towards the video card or memory instead. As for the memory, try to get something with the Micron D9 chips. The other stuff can't be pushed very far. I'm not sure which 1GB packs have them though.

[Descenterace]

Of course RAID5ed disks fail quickly. There's more of them. First of all, you have a minimum three disks to an array, which means thrice the probability of a single disk failure within a given time interval. Secondly, those disks all get slightly more use, because extra data (the parity) has to be read and written. Finally, the controller card adds another possible point of failure, although this is hopefully not significant, since if it dies you probably lose the array. Which is a good reason to configure the same set of disks with at least one identical controller so you can simply plug them into the spare when the main one dies. It'll see the same config it saw to begin with and won't pester you to reinitialise the disks, so you can be assured of at least a couple of days to check that your backups are up to date.

This does not mean that RAID is not extremely worthwhile. If your data is worth anything, it's also extremely cost-effective. Individual disks only fail slightly more often, and recovery is as simple as plugging in a replacement. The main expense is the controller: a decent RAID5 card will cost you a minimum of about $450 (retail). Anything less is almost certainly software RAID5, which kinda defeats the object if you want speed. Software RAID is only even slightly worthwhile for RAID1.

[Bob-san]

What I'll overclock...

The processor.
E6300 1.86ghz to at a minimum 2.66 ghz. I got the idea from this chip's older brother, the E6400. It was overclocked to 3.33ghz. The cooler i'm going to use is $35 over at Tiger, and the motherboard is okay for low-end overclocks (but not good for anything more).

The plan is...
Intel Core 2 Duo E6300 "Allendale".

Overclock it to 2.66 ghz, as that will be stable. Another overclock to 2.8ghz. My last overclock will be 3 ghz. If any are unstable or running too warm (more then 55 deg cel.) I will look at dropping the clock. I won't do more then 1.52V as I hear that upping that beyond stock will only make it overheat faster, with little or no speed gains.

1024MB PC-4200 (533MHz) DDR2 Memory (to be overclocked to speeds of at least 667mhz (pc5400)

Overclock that to 667mhz or so. If it's stable, I'll run at that speed. If it's not stable, 533mhz is not that much slower then 667mhz. Just about 2-3fps on some games.


Hmm about getting a 7600GT instead of a GS might work... there's one at NewEgg for $130 (256mb GDDR3) versus one at the same place, 7600GS, for $89 (256mb gddr2). Is the memory speed going to do much?

[CP5670]

The processor.
E6300 1.86ghz to at a minimum 2.66 ghz. I got the idea from this chip's older brother, the E6400. It was overclocked to 3.33ghz. The cooler i'm going to use is $35 over at Tiger, and the motherboard is okay for low-end overclocks (but not good for anything more).

The plan is...
Intel Core 2 Duo E6300 "Allendale".

Overclock it to 2.66 ghz, as that will be stable. Another overclock to 2.8ghz. My last overclock will be 3 ghz. If any are unstable or running too warm (more then 55 deg cel.) I will look at dropping the clock. I won't do more then 1.52V as I hear that upping that beyond stock will only make it overheat faster, with little or no speed gains.

You'll need 7x380 to get 2.66ghz on a E6300. Unfortunately, the 570 is a notoriously poor overclocker and it's extremely unlikely that an ECS board on that chipset will reach 380. You'll get 300, possibly 320, and it will top out around there. The stock Intel cooler will be fine up to 3ghz or so, but that motherboard will severely limit any overclocking.

Hmm about getting a 7600GT instead of a GS might work... there's one at NewEgg for $130 (256mb GDDR3) versus one at the same place, 7600GS, for $89 (256mb gddr2). Is the memory speed going to do much?

It's much faster, although not only because of the memory. As I said earlier, ditch the cooler and spend your money here, which is really where it counts as far as gaming goes. The EVGA one is $120 on Newegg with a $20 MIR.

[Bob-san]

I've not heard too much good about stock cooling from intel...

Anyways a 7x multiplier and max of 325 FSB... 7*325=2275mhz max... I really don't care about the OC but I'll look around for other solutions. The overclock isn't a big thing as the processor won't bottlenext a low-to-mid-end graphics card. The CPU is best preformance for the money...

The mobo is about the best for the price... you can't beat compadibility, the SLI PCI-e slots, 4 DDR2 DIMM's, and all the other nice features. It's a larger board like I want, and has maximum features.

Right now I'd settle for anything dual core... pretty much anything blows away my Celeron 2GHz...

[Taristin]

Anyways a 7x multiplier and max of 325 FSB... 7*325=2275mhz max... I really don't care about the OC but I'll look around for other solutions. The overclock isn't a big thing as the processor won't bottlenext a low-to-mid-end graphics card. The CPU is best preformance for the money...

Just because the math works doesnt mean the chip will. With my e6300, and my P5B-VM, I can only get it to 1.97Ghz and have it be stable. I had it at 2GHz and windows would error out on loading.

Surely this is down to my own inexperience in OCing, but I was unable to get anything higher than this.

[Bob-san]

What are some good motherboards for C2D with good overclocking under $150? I was thinking of an Asus P5NSLI, and someone said that if you turn off the case alarm setting... newegg has 100 or so reviews.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/CustratingReview.asp?item=N82E16813131032

Tell me what you think. I'll email my uncle about it if he hasn't already ordered the ECS motherboard.

[wtf_cl0vvn]

were you going to SLI the cards?

I got a 7900 GTX, and now im having a hell of a time finding another to SLI with...

[Bob-san]

Eventually I was going to SLI cards... I was thinking dual 8600's when they come out... I should have about $400 to do the upgrade with by then, though I hear sometimes that with currentgen 7600GT's that SLI isn't that big of an advantage...

I want a SLI-compadible platform because I prefer nVidia to ATI and I like the idea, though the current 8800GTS and GTX are a little bit too power-hungry... perhaps a 8600 will come out for Vista that will be good. If not, I'll use the 7600GS/GT until the GeForce 9x00 comes out  i'll be out of date by then!

[CP5670]

Just because the math works doesnt mean the chip will. With my e6300, and my P5B-VM, I can only get it to 1.97Ghz and have it be stable. I had it at 2GHz and windows would error out on loading.

Surely this is down to my own inexperience in OCing, but I was unable to get anything higher than this.

It's most likely a limitation of your motherboard rather than the chip. Just about any of these processors can do at least 3ghz, but it requires the right board, memory and cooling.

What are some good motherboards for C2D with good overclocking under $150? I was thinking of an Asus P5NSLI, and someone said that if you turn off the case alarm setting... newegg has 100 or so reviews.

The Gigabyte DS3 is an easy choice as I said earlier. The S3 is very similar and almost as good. These boards are a little quirky especially with memory compatibility, but they're the only ones in their price range that hit FSBs as high as the $200+ boards. The 965 chipset is currently your best bet for overclocking, although some 975 boards are pretty good too. Avoid the Nvidia stuff unless you need SLI support; the 570 and 590 are uniformly crappy while the 680 boards have been giving very mixed results so far.

Eventually I was going to SLI cards... I was thinking dual 8600's when they come out... I should have about $400 to do the upgrade with by then, though I hear sometimes that with currentgen 7600GT's that SLI isn't that big of an advantage...

SLI/CF with two midrange cards is almost never worth buying over a single, similarly priced higher end one. Not only is the performance generally lower, but you have to deal with the various software and compatibility problems that come with dual card setups.

[Bob-san]

OK so where can i look for the best OC boards for C2D?

From "Shootout at the Core 2 Corral: Seven P965 Motherboards Compared"... just the mobo and the FSB freq max...
Abit AB9 Pro
133-600mhz

Asus P5B
100-500mhz

Biostar TForce P965 Deluxe
100-500mhz

Foxconn P9657AA-8KS2H
"Default"-600mhz

Gigabyte GA-965P-DS3
100-600mhz

Gigabyte GA-965P-DS6
100-600mhz

MSI P965 Platinum
200-500mhz

Which of these mobos is best? I was thinking about the Biostar TForce P965 Deluxe. What do you think?
TigerDirect Price: $-
NewEgg Price: $104.99

What do you guys think?

[Taristin]

Just because the math works doesnt mean the chip will. With my e6300, and my P5B-VM, I can only get it to 1.97Ghz and have it be stable. I had it at 2GHz and windows would error out on loading.

Surely this is down to my own inexperience in OCing, but I was unable to get anything higher than this.

It's most likely a limitation of your motherboard rather than the chip. Just about any of these processors can do at least 3ghz, but it requires the right board, memory and cooling.

Possibly my RAM more than anything. Value ram FTL. I cant afford the good stuff with excellent latencies though :/ Vista reports my RAM as being the biggest bottleneck in my system's performance at the moment. SO... if anyone wants to get me RAM for giftmas...?

[Bob-san]

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2507538&CatId=0

Check that out... is it any good? It's an ECS P965T-A, LGA 775, 2 PCI-e x16, and supports RAID 0 and 1 with 4 S-ATA 300's. Pentium 4, Celeron D, Pentium D, Core 2 Duo, and Core 2 Extreme. DDR2 533/667/800. $80 with rebate, $100 without.

[Taristin]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813135022

Cheaper at NewEgg. Read the customer reviews, while there.

Apparently next to no OC options.

[Bob-san]

Hah screw that! I'll look at biostar's p965 which toms hardware said is good for price!