Author Topic: Non-lethal weapon that makes tasers look like nothing.  (Read 9498 times)

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Offline Flipside

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Re: Non-lethal weapon that makes tasers look like nothing.
Thank you Spartan. I'm disinclined to moderate this discussion because I'm involved in it, but if this turns into a name-calling session it will end up locked, if not by me then by someone else.

 

Offline KappaWing

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Re: Non-lethal weapon that makes tasers look like nothing.
Why dont they just test extended exposure effects on corpses?
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Offline Fragrag

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Re: Non-lethal weapon that makes tasers look like nothing.
Why dont they just test extended exposure effects on corpses?

Ethical reasons I'm guessing, though if the deceased and his/her family gives permission, I don't see anything wrong with it, though religious zealots will strongly object and probably succeed in stopping this whole project.
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Re: Non-lethal weapon that makes tasers look like nothing.
Why dont they just test extended exposure effects on corpses?

Ummm, we respect our dead. We'd have to have the family sign some sort of waver allowing testing on their loved one. Not many families nowadays would condone what the Chair Force Air Force is doing. Let alone use their loved one's body be used for an experiment that could destroy the body.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2006, 03:09:49 pm by spartan_0214 »

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"Take my love. Take my land. Take me where I cannot stand. I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me. Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back. Burn the land boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me. There's no place I can be since I've found Serenity. But you can't take the sky from me." - Ballad of Serenity

 

Offline KappaWing

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Re: Non-lethal weapon that makes tasers look like nothing.
So destroying the body of someone who isnt using theirs anymore is immoral, and making a living, breathing human being feel like their skin is melting off is moral? How does that make any sense?  :eek2:
"Your efforts to interdict me have failed, papacy. Pentagon, engage propaganda drive."
"Now, Protestant scum, you will see the power of this fully armed and operational Papal Station!"

 

Offline Agent_Koopa

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What really gets me here is the fact that some people here are perfectly willing to have people shot, potentially lethally, which may I remind you is a condition that cannot be removed with the flick of a switch, but unwilling to have a small spot on your skin heated so that pain is unbearable, after which the beam may be switched off and the person will be completely unwilling to have it turned on again. If people want to abuse this, trust me, they can hurt people much easier without having to use an expensive piece of equipment such as this.

Oh, and the model I saw was briefcase-sized, not jeep-mounted. The jeep-mounted system was, IIRC,  a sonic weapon.






And I don't see why you all advocate the use of large beam weapons on unshielded noobs like me. *dives for cover*
« Last Edit: December 09, 2006, 04:25:23 pm by Agent_Koopa »
Interestingly enough, this signature is none of the following:
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A clever and self-referential comment on the nature of signatures themselves.

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Offline KappaWing

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Re: Non-lethal weapon that makes tasers look like nothing.
TOO LATE!!!!

:welcome:

 :p
"Your efforts to interdict me have failed, papacy. Pentagon, engage propaganda drive."
"Now, Protestant scum, you will see the power of this fully armed and operational Papal Station!"

 

Offline Gank

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Re: Guns over tasers and ADS?
Oh, and the model I saw was briefcase-sized, not jeep-mounted. The jeep-mounted system was, IIRC,  a sonic weapon.

The photo of the jeep is taken from the article and says quite clearly that its the ADS, if you look theres pictures of the other models, none of which are going to fit in anyones briefcase. And I dont see anybody here advocating shooting rioters.

More on the testing:
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The experiments took several precautions for the safety of the volunteers. In all experiments, the volunteers were not allowed to wear glasses or contact lenses, due to concerns about possible eye damage. Additionally, after the first experiment, volunteers were checked for metal objects, such as keys and coins, as well as certain zippers, buttons, and seams, in order to avoid "hot spots" that could be created by these objects on the skin of the participants.

In a test conducted before the three experiments described, one of the participants suffered a burn due to the weapon being set to the wrong power level.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System

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Countermeasures against the weapon could be quite straightforward — for example covering up the body with thick clothes or carrying a metallic sheet — or even a trash can lid — as a shield or reflector. Also unclear is how the active-denial technology would work in rainy, foggy or sea-spray conditions where the beam's energy could be absorbed by water in the atmosphere.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/v-mads.htm

Anyone see that film about the bradley "Pentagon wars"? Fraiser was in it, hilarious. They dont seem to have learned anything from it though.

 
Re: Non-lethal weapon that makes tasers look like nothing.
It's like a weapon of terror. Guns are a weapon of WAR, the ADS will be a weapon of TERROR. I do not condone the use of it, but if pointed slightly away from a crowd would convince them to disperse.

If I may quote Colonel O'Neill:
"This is a weapon of TERROR. It is made to INTIMIDATE your enemy. (dropping the staff weapon, picking up his P90) This is a weapon of WAR. It is made to KILL your enemy." (Season 5, Episode"The Warrior").


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"Take my love. Take my land. Take me where I cannot stand. I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me. Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back. Burn the land boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me. There's no place I can be since I've found Serenity. But you can't take the sky from me." - Ballad of Serenity

 

Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Non-lethal weapon that makes tasers look like nothing.
the Chair Force Air Force

* nuclear1 proceeds to kick spartan's ass.
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

 
Re: Non-lethal weapon that makes tasers look like nothing.


wow, so you ARE a moron

Cute. This, from the person who has provided no support at all other than a few offhand remarks little different from "I saw the hippies get maced. I SAW IT (on youtube!)!"

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police regularly swab protesters in lines and other non mobile situations <folk who chain themselves to trees> with pepper spray that is FAR from mace, again, candycanes and gumdrops, elderly protesters, what about all those aging hippies? I see a fair number of quite old protesters, also, paents of people in iraq, a lot of them are quite old, spouses of reactivated soldiers, since they upped the age for reactivation, dang, they've gotten into a pretty old age bracket too

I didn't say protesters, you incompetent, I said rioters. Riot=More Violent than peaceful protest (the only LAWFUL kind there is). Learn the difference. Most police forces are fully authorized to use direct action to disperse a riot, including Mace/Pepper Spray, Tasers, whatever.

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and did you ever consider that heart disease, epilepsy and many other disorders that electroshock can set off, though often age linked <though epilepsy kicking in at puberty, hardly the age I suspect you were thinking> rarely show outward signs, and I wonder what the statistics are for people who are not elderly, but have electro magnetic devices that assist with the regulation of body function, I do not simplify to pace makers because in DBS a similar device is used to treat schizophrenia, depression, epilepsy, bipolar disorder, and a range of other diseases

And what does this have to do with a focused heat-based device that doesn't involve passing massive amounts of electricity through your brain? Oh, thats right, nothing.

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gee, seems you are just spewing your ignorance as hard as you can eh?

"Kettle, this is Pot. You're black."

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this has nothing to do with "shadow governments" wow, paranoid aren't we? it has to do with the fact that often, when kit gets small and economical it gets down to street level, and if you didn't have your head where the sun doesn't shine you would see that miniturization is clearly a goal, it is a goal with any weapon system, lethal or non, as is making it more economical, the fact that this decive leaves no mark makes it extremly attractive to someone who wants to abuse their power in a position of authority, many police officers are police officers because they want that authority to be able to use it on other people, I am not saying most, I am not saying all, I am saying many, I am saying enough to make this a problem, I am saying that when I watch the interviews with police officers after the chicago dnc in the 60's whenever someone mentions hitting a kneecap or something and doing severe damage, which the messed up folk do there is a very disturbing manner about the way in which they do it

Bullcrap. There were numerous remarks to the effect that the "Evil Government will torture you mercilessly with this!"

As for the rest: And you call me paranoid? El. Oh. El.

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some learned cynicism and wisdom added to your bag of tricks would do you well, I disagree with you because I have seen what happens when people with lesser capabilities are given a better way to do their evil, as it is only a corrupt officer with some of his wits about him can get away with something, those who aren't smart enough to cover up the marks from the taser or the club don't get to think about abusing their power, with this mechanism, which will eventually get into more hands, more people will be able to abuse it, and sans the forensic trail to shut down those who would abuse this power this is indeed a dangerous path

...Of course. How could I be so blind? Obviously this is a foolproof device, highly advanced, capable of penetrating any form of defense or surface, autotracking, unimaginably cruel, easy to obtain, far along in development and miniaturization. How could I not see that within a few years every sick bastard that makes up U.S. security and Law enforcement will have their own shiny paingun that they will be able to abuse against anybody and everybody. I mean, it's not like such a device will be regulated, or expensive, or (LOL at the thought) worse at inspiring fear and obediance than the GUNS POLICE OFFICERS ALREADY CARRY!

Wow, thank you for educating me with your oh-so-infallible view on this subject. Screw the pain lasers, lets just skip right to the killing ones, eh? Then they'll be indistinguishable from other weapons, and you can stop the whining.

There, does that cynicism make you feel better?

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I fear it in military hands, but I fear it in law enforcement hands far more

Moreso than guns and grenades and bombs and Jets and tanks and Battleships? Wow, we certainly have our priorities in order. God forbid the Military have a non-lethal device that does the job of numerous more "immoral" devices.
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Blind people with them..."

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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Non-lethal weapon that makes tasers look like nothing.
People:



Meet the M82A1 Barret Sniper Rifle. It has an effective range of 1.5 Kilometers, maybe 2 if you're good. It is capable of firing up to 10 Armour piercing rounds in as many seconds. Being hit by this will cost you one of 2 things: A limb, or your life. It can punch through a concrete wall. Untraceable, as you're brains will be splattered all across the room you're in before you hear the shot.

Cry about that. You'll be making a better case than you have for the ADS.

What are you on about?  Seriously?

Firstly, a sniper rifle is a lethal weapon.  It's an assasination tool - like poison, for example.  Secondly, it does leave evidence; not just the victim, but also the bullet and indeed the wound characteristics.  Thirdly, no-one has suggested the use of a sniper rifle for crowd control.

I'm not sure what orifice you're talking through, but I doubt it's the correct one.

 
Re: Non-lethal weapon that makes tasers look like nothing.

What are you on about?  Seriously?

Firstly, a sniper rifle is a lethal weapon.  It's an assasination tool - like poison, for example.  Secondly, it does leave evidence; not just the victim, but also the bullet and indeed the wound characteristics.  Thirdly, no-one has suggested the use of a sniper rifle for crowd control.

I'm not sure what orifice you're talking through, but I doubt it's the correct one.

YOU were complaining about the fact that ADS is "Immoral" because of what it could do and how it couldn't be traced.

I was pointing out that there are far worse things out there that have the same traits and potential.

Lets make a checklist:

ADS causes pain. (Bad)
ADS is designed to be a non-lethal deterrant. (Good)
ADS is currently in use by the military only, as a way to disperse mobs/attackers without fatally wounding them (Good)
ADS doesn't leave a mark on the target unless said target purposefully stands in the path of the beam for an exhorbitant amount of time. (Good or bad, depending upon your point of view)

Lets compare to the standard issue sidearm (or beanbag launchers commonly used to disperse riots):

They cause pain.
They are very much capable of killing/maiming you.
They are in use by current police forces.
They leave many lasting marks, including broken bones, extensive bruising, bleeding, and potentially internal damage and/or death.

I'll ask again, because you repeatedly fail to address this point: How is ADS any worse than what is already out there? It's not the only damn thing in the universe capable of causing PAIN, people.
Carpe Diem Poste Crastinus

"When life gives you lemons...
Blind people with them..."

"Yah, dude, penises rock." Turambar

FUKOOOOV!

 

Offline Agent_Koopa

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Re: Guns over tasers and ADS?
Oh, and the model I saw was briefcase-sized, not jeep-mounted. The jeep-mounted system was, IIRC,  a sonic weapon.

The photo of the jeep is taken from the article and says quite clearly that its the ADS, if you look theres pictures of the other models, none of which are going to fit in anyones briefcase. And I dont see anybody here advocating shooting rioters.

You are certainly right, I confused this weapon with a briefcase-sized lightning emitter that could potentially be used to block a doorway. Terribly sorry.

But my point still stands. Police can still beat people up and cause pain without going to the trouble and expense of buying an ADS system and chaining someone to a chair in front of it.
Interestingly enough, this signature is none of the following:
A witty remark on whatever sad state of affairs the world may or may not be in
A series of localized forum in-jokes
A clever and self-referential comment on the nature of signatures themselves.

Hobo Queens are Crowned, but Hobo Kings are Found.

 
Re: Non-lethal weapon that makes tasers look like nothing.
Quote from:  Jetmech Jr.
Quote
I fear it in military hands, but I fear it in law enforcement hands far more

Moreso than guns and grenades and bombs and Jets and tanks and Battleships? Wow, we certainly have our priorities in order. God forbid the Military have a non-lethal device that does the job of numerous more "immoral" devices.

'Cept the military has training for those weapons. And those weapons consume ammo. And I think the point that Techie was trying to make was that ADS won't leave marks (on most people) so there's no evidece left if a soldier used it on the enemy.

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"Take my love. Take my land. Take me where I cannot stand. I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me. Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back. Burn the land boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me. There's no place I can be since I've found Serenity. But you can't take the sky from me." - Ballad of Serenity

  
Re: Non-lethal weapon that makes tasers look like nothing.



I fear it in military hands, but I fear it in law enforcement hands far more

Moreso than guns and grenades and bombs and Jets and tanks and Battleships? Wow, we certainly have our priorities in order. God forbid the Military have a non-lethal device that does the job of numerous more "immoral" devices.

skipping to that part because the rest was dreg


funny how you don't mention cluster bombs

and funny how you don't realize that all but I believe two battleship class vessels have been mothballed and replaced with carriers, and the two remaining are in the reserve fleet, i.e. they are waiting to die

the military is significantly more trained than law enforcement, and the military has proven itself to have a greater culture of self accountability eventually

I do put that eventually in there because stuff has to be brought up, but police do get off with crap

now, this argument serves absolutly no purpose, I am going to, for the moment discontinue my side of it because I know I am not going to shift you, never see anyone shift in internet arguments, they really serve no purpose, I could provide statistics from peer reviewed journals till the sun came up and it would have no effect, I've done it in the past, never worth my time, so, screw you :D

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Non-lethal weapon that makes tasers look like nothing.
Seriously. Flipside has already warned the pair of you to stop with the name calling and flaming.

If you want to discuss the matter go ahead but if you can't do it without childish name calling you'll both be getting a holiday from the Hard Light forum soon.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Non-lethal weapon that makes tasers look like nothing.

What are you on about?  Seriously?

Firstly, a sniper rifle is a lethal weapon.  It's an assasination tool - like poison, for example.  Secondly, it does leave evidence; not just the victim, but also the bullet and indeed the wound characteristics.  Thirdly, no-one has suggested the use of a sniper rifle for crowd control.

I'm not sure what orifice you're talking through, but I doubt it's the correct one.

YOU were complaining about the fact that ADS is "Immoral" because of what it could do and how it couldn't be traced.

I was pointing out that there are far worse things out there that have the same traits and potential.

Lets make a checklist:

ADS causes pain. (Bad)
ADS is designed to be a non-lethal deterrant. (Good)
ADS is currently in use by the military only, as a way to disperse mobs/attackers without fatally wounding them (Good)
ADS doesn't leave a mark on the target unless said target purposefully stands in the path of the beam for an exhorbitant amount of time. (Good or bad, depending upon your point of view)

Lets compare to the standard issue sidearm (or beanbag launchers commonly used to disperse riots):

They cause pain.
They are very much capable of killing/maiming you.
They are in use by current police forces.
They leave many lasting marks, including broken bones, extensive bruising, bleeding, and potentially internal damage and/or death.

I'll ask again, because you repeatedly fail to address this point: How is ADS any worse than what is already out there? It's not the only damn thing in the universe capable of causing PAIN, people.

Because ADS is designed for the express purpose of causing pain, invisibly and undetectably.  It offers the capacity for literal torture without evidence.  Without evidence, there is no form of accountability; it can be used without fear of repercussion, and with increasing frequency because it 'only' causes intense pain.  A gun - something we don't actually seem to need much in my country - may be more lethal and physically damaging, but it is traceable and has very clear consequences of use; every shot leaves a casing, every person hurt a wound.   IT's extremely tracable.

 Moreso, it's a - frankly - idiotic strawman to suggest the use of a sniper rifle for crowd control (actually, I can't help but wonder how useful ADS would be in spreading panic and thus chaos in a crowd rather than controlling it), something which never has nor ever will.  Nor could a sniper rifle be used for torture - something ADS is perfect for - because of evidence.  Even looking at the military applications, all a pain weapon offers is the ability to be indiscriminate when using; and how many soldiers would use it when they felt genuinely threatened, rather than a bit of the old reliably indiscriminate firing?

So let's make up a nice list explaining my argument

ADS;
- designed to cause pain - bad
- may cause death ala tasers due to poor testing or misuse - bad
- non-lethality means less hesitation to use in unsuitable circumstances - bad
- invisible, which removes any accountability and leaves massively open to abuse such as at Gitmo - bad

It's a device designed to cause intense pain; how is the creation of any device to cause pain moral?

 

Offline KappaWing

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Re: Non-lethal weapon that makes tasers look like nothing.
Police are using high power water cannons to disperse rioters following Pinochet's death. These seem to be effective in dispersing crowds. They are low cost, low tech, and work fine. Why dont we use these water cannons instead of something that could double as an ultimate torture device?
"Your efforts to interdict me have failed, papacy. Pentagon, engage propaganda drive."
"Now, Protestant scum, you will see the power of this fully armed and operational Papal Station!"

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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Re: Non-lethal weapon that makes tasers look like nothing.
Yeah, why don't they? Say, for instance, to quell race riots. Wait, why is that ringing a bell?
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