[aldo_14]

Old, but still interesting; I think this is most suited to this bit rather than general.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.html

Does the Israel Defense Forces believe incoming recruits and soldiers who play Dungeons and Dragons are unfit for elite units? Ynet has learned that 18-year-olds who tell recruiters they play the popular fantasy game are automatically given low security clearance.

“They're detached from reality and suscepitble to influence,” the army says.

Fans of the popular roleplaying game had spoken of rumors of this strange policy by the IDF, but now the army has confirmed that it has a negative image of teens who play the game and labels them as problematic in regard to their draft status.

[Ghostavo]

Sandwich, do you play D&D?

If so have you told anyone?

[spartan_0214]

I play DnD and I think enhances your strategic ability. 'Specially if you're a ranger.

[Rictor]

>IDF rolls D20 for initiative against Hamas
>Initiative successful, roll for damage
>IDF wields Superior F-16 of Asskicking, rolls for damage D10+2
>IDF deals 8 damage to Hamas

If you ask me, IDF command should switch their whole planning system to D20 for ease of use, intercompatability and verstility.

[Fineus]

“They're detached from reality and susceptible to influence,” the army says.

And there I was thinking that part of a soldiers training was to desensitize them to killing people and following orders...

[vyper]

I think that's a blind-sider they've come away with. What it probably means is that they can see the big picture, and might actually question their orders.

[Sandwich]

Uhh...

1) No, I never played D&D in any form. Stayed away from it, mainly due to my Messianic Jewish/Christian/whatever-you-want-to-call-it upbringing.

2) While I can't speak for elite units, standard combat soldier training in the IDF is all about discipline - during basic. Follow orders, know the procedures, be comitted to the service. In advanced training (which immediately follows basic training, natch), the discipline aspect is greatly dropped (you start to call your sergents and immediate officers by first name instead of rank; incidentally, in the public school system it's the same, where you call teachers by first name, not "Mr./Mrs. McCready"). Instead, advanced training focuses on personal excellence in combat, first the personal-level training maneuvers, then squad-level (3 ppl), unit-level (11 ppl), company-level (~35 ppl), etc. You also learn whatever non-generic stuff you need for your position, both on the personal level (AT, mortar, HMG, sharpshooter) as well as the larger scale (combat engineers learn about explosives, mines & minefields, AT obstacles, etc).

The only "desensitization" a standard combat soldier goes through with regard to killing people, Kal, is having human-shaped cardboard cutout targets on the firing range - hardly effective I would think.

Back on topic, however, I can see how they would get such an impression from D&D players. The few I've known have seemed to be obsessed with the game to the point where nearly everything they encounter and say is filtered through "D&D-colored" glasses.

[aldo_14]

The only "desensitization" a standard combat soldier goes through with regard to killing people, Kal, is having human-shaped cardboard cutout targets on the firing range - hardly effective I would think.

I'd disagree; I think it'd be effective, in the same vein as WW2 soldiers focusing on the helmets or uniforms of the enemy rather than their faces.  Reduce your enemy to cardboard cutouts in the minds of the soldiers, and the less hesitant they will be to fire; because it's not like they couldn't get more realistic looking targets, is it? 

[achtung]

I'd disagree; I think it'd be effective, in the same vein as WW2 soldiers focusing on the helmets or uniforms of the enemy rather than their faces.  Reduce your enemy to cardboard cutouts in the minds of the soldiers, and the less hesitant they will be to fire; because it's not like they couldn't get more realistic looking targets, is it? 

Or maybe because they're cheaper to manufacture, and easier to replace, than full-sized mannequins.  >_>

[Rictor]

Are you advocating using captured Pals for target practice, aldo? That's cold man, for real.

[Sandwich]

The only "desensitization" a standard combat soldier goes through with regard to killing people, Kal, is having human-shaped cardboard cutout targets on the firing range - hardly effective I would think.

I'd disagree; I think it'd be effective, in the same vein as WW2 soldiers focusing on the helmets or uniforms of the enemy rather than their faces.  Reduce your enemy to cardboard cutouts in the minds of the soldiers, and the less hesitant they will be to fire; because it's not like they couldn't get more realistic looking targets, is it? 

Hmm... there may be something to that, but consider that an Israeli soldier regularly comes face to face with those potential "enemies" while not in a combat situation on a daily basis. We look them in the eyes, talk with them, and many of us, in our civilian lives, work alongside them every day. They're people, irrevocably intertwined into our lives as we are in theirs, and no amount of army brainwashing will be able to overcome that experience of living with them side-by-side.

[aldo_14]

The only "desensitization" a standard combat soldier goes through with regard to killing people, Kal, is having human-shaped cardboard cutout targets on the firing range - hardly effective I would think.

I'd disagree; I think it'd be effective, in the same vein as WW2 soldiers focusing on the helmets or uniforms of the enemy rather than their faces.  Reduce your enemy to cardboard cutouts in the minds of the soldiers, and the less hesitant they will be to fire; because it's not like they couldn't get more realistic looking targets, is it? 

Hmm... there may be something to that, but consider that an Israeli soldier regularly comes face to face with those potential "enemies" while not in a combat situation on a daily basis. We look them in the eyes, talk with them, and many of us, in our civilian lives, work alongside them every day. They're people, irrevocably intertwined into our lives as we are in theirs, and no amount of army brainwashing will be able to overcome that experience of living with them side-by-side.

That makes desensitization even more important.  It's a fundamental part of any army to stop their troops seeing enemies as other people, because hesitation gets troops killed, and I'd imagine for exactly the reasons you state that the IDF will have batteries of people dedicated to, in a combat situation, making sure troops are not thinking 'I'm shooting at people', but 'I'm shooting at targets' (kind of crude simplification). Ultimately, it's not brainwashing so much as conditioning, anyways, and I'm not suggesting it'd be something unique to the IDF.

[Quest_techie]

the us army hasn't used traditional desensitization as it's primary anti hesitation weapon for years

in training they stress the family makeup of your unit, make you believe on some level you are family, a tribe, because the easiest way to get a person to defend someone else with deadly force, is to make that person their family

certainly there is a certain amount of desentization, but much less than there used to be, and that is because it is simply less effective

[Fineus]

I think the point is that any army does require the soldier to conform to certain things...Always follow orders... obey the chain of command... that the soldier must be prepared to kill when it's required of him/her.

So getting back to the original point, saying that an applicant is unsuitable for the armed forces because they may be more "suscetible to influence" as a result of playing DnD seems very strange indeed.

That said I don't know the full story. Perhaps there were other factors involved that we don't know.

[Shade]

I actually played a lot of D&D while *in* the army Good way to pass time in the evenings, since it required zero physical effort and we were mostly too tired at the end of the day after doing maintenance, cleaning etc. to actually do stuff once we were on our own time. Was nice to just sit down with my roommates in a corner at the (after 8pm nearly deserted) base cafeteria and relax with some D&D. Of course, it was only after we were through basic training that we really had much time for it, during basic things were quite a bit stricter.

Thinking about it, I dare say it might possibly even have made us better soldiers in the end because we weren't out getting stoned or drunk, helped us get de-stressed so we were better prepared for the next day, made us bond better and gave us an opportunity to discuss whatever we had just been through if any of us were in doubt about anything.

Still, I also dare say that military service here is quite a bit less serious than in Israel. Not the actual training mind you, that's serious and demanding enough (though it's a lot shorter here for most types of units, as the compulsory service is mainly just training and no actual deployment etc.), but there's just not that thing hanging over your head that you might just have to go fight for your life at any time. No states next door with our destruction on their agenda. And that's a big difference.

If there was, I can see how the brass might be inclined to just not take the risk with something they don't understand. After all, if real lives are at stake, you want to play it safe even if there probably isn't an issue. And it's not like D&D hasn't been vilified plenty by various parties over the years, so all it would take was for some person in the right place to read the wrong article and you've got a policy like this.

[Turnsky]

"D&D-colored" glasses.

commonly referred to as LARP'ers

[karajorma]

It's probably simply that they reckon that if you play D&D you're a devil worshipper and therefore not safe to hold a gun in the first place.

[Mr. Vega]

no amount of army civilian brainwashing will be able to overcome that experience of living with them side-by-side.

Um, 1930s Mississippi?

[Flipside]

'I can't go fight out there, do you realise the damage the Sun will do to my Drow armour??'

[Nuke]

all of the d&d freaks ive ran into were pretty far seporated from reality, more obsessed with the fantasy aspect than the actual gameplay. i see no harm in playing the game, its basicly a numbers game with a strategy aspect. when you start acting out your roles and become a troll or whatever for the duration of the game (and for at least 2 hours after), then your perception of reality needs to be questioned. im sure if youre superior asks if you play d&d and you say on occasion, i doubt youl set off any red flags. but if you enter into a 5 minute monolog about your role/the last game you played/and the best way to kill an elf, im sure hes gonna take note. ive never played d&d and i doubt i ever will. i perfer games where you blow things up