Author Topic: Happy Darwin Day!  (Read 17405 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Bobboau

  • Just a MODern kinda guy
    Just MODerately cool
    And MODest too
  • 213
well is that wrong? are we still supposed to run into prophets today?
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
creator of the ProXimus Procedural Texture and Effect Generator
My latest build of PCS2, get it while it's hot!
PCS 2.0.3


DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline Ghost

  • 29
    • whoopdidoo
This is probably the most popular, or maybe infamous, thread I've ever posted. I'm not sure whether to be proud of myself, or what.


For the record, I'm agnostic(born and raised Catholic) and obviously a believer in evolution.
Wh00t!? Vinyl? Is it like an I-pod 2 or something?

[/sarcasm]

-KappaWing

The Greatest Game in Existance

 

Offline Mefustae

  • 210
  • Chevron locked...
Am I the only one who heard alarm bells ringing when the word "prophet" appeared in this thread?

 

Offline Taristin

  • Snipes
  • 213
  • BlueScalie
    • Skelkwank Shipyards
well is that wrong? are we still supposed to run into prophets today?
Who's to say we don't? These days we lock those people away in mental assylums.
Freelance Modeler | Amateur Artist

 

Offline Bobboau

  • Just a MODern kinda guy
    Just MODerately cool
    And MODest too
  • 213
well... according to the bible, can there still be prophets? (y/n)
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
creator of the ProXimus Procedural Texture and Effect Generator
My latest build of PCS2, get it while it's hot!
PCS 2.0.3


DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
No, some are serving their own agenda. Not all. Trusting prophets is a risk in some cases, as some are not trustworthy and some are.
I personally do not accept that youtube vid, i claim it as bs. Yeah u guessed my reaction. But meh, its my first impression.

And yes i know and beleive that some, or most, televangelists are BS. I tend to like watching them cauze i look for all the BS they say. Sometimes they speak truth, sometimes, not so. I know some ppl are bull and are traiend to read ppl.

Perhaps my point wasn't clear; it was late, after all.

Your creationist position seems to entirely be based upon the unquestioning belief of one person, or theology, without questioning the basis behind that.  Now, that might be fine from a religious-worship point of view, but when questioning the observations made by not just one scientist but the entire scientific community I think you have to also question those you feed you these positions.   Because I've seen things in these evolution debates where people have posted 'facts' for creationism that simply are lies.  Not wrong, not misunderstood, but deliberate lies told to them from a position of (religious, sometimes posited as scientific) authority.

The fact that you immediately look at something challenging your pespective and go 'bs' without any apparent consideration or thought, make me greatly worried.  How - or why - can you go through life with such an uncritical, unreasonable (in the very literal sense of 'reason') attitude?  Until you are capable of actively considering things - which does not mean rejecting your faith - with an open mind, you'll be stuck in a dogmatic attitude that I think effectively holds you back.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Arguing against Creationism by arguing against Faith is a ridiculous course of action.  Rather, provide the evidence for evolution, and address its problems in order to convey understanding.

Actually that's precisely the wrong course of action in this sort of debate. Attempting to defend evolution is the wrong way to go about things. Evolution does not need to be supported in this kind of debate. Evolution is accepted scientific fact. Debating about it as if there was any alternative gives the nonsense spouted by Young-Earth Creationists legitamacy. The favourite comment of YECs is to claim that evolution is a hotly debated subject. Of course they never point out that only YECs are still debating the issue because everyone else has moved on.

So do not explain why evolution is right. Explain why creationism is wrong. Make them defend their ridiculous half-baked notions of what science is and you'll soon expose them as frauds, kooks or completely ignorant. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Make them try to prove it.

I wholeheartedly agree with the above statement... and I'm also a firm believer in the Christian faith.
Evolution (or more specifically, the basic theory therein) is not contradictory to faith. Some of the finer points of the evolutionist attitude I may not agree with (such as humans supposedly evolving from apes), but the basic theory is perfectly compatible.

Alright. I'll bite.

First there is no such thing as an evolutionist. It's a name made up creationists to attempt to pigeon-hole their opponents into a niche that doesn't exist. Either you accept science or you don't. Calling someone an evolutionist because they accept evolution as fact is about as sensible as calling them sphere-Earthers because they don't believe the world is flat.

Second if you don't accept that humans came from apes then you are not just missing a finer point of evolutionary theory as you wanted to put it. You're missing the entire point. Unless you can come up with a credible explaination for where humans did come from that explains all the similarities we have to chimps and the other great apes your point of view is actually even more incomprehensible than Charismatic's.

Why would evolution get as far as the great apes and then suddenly cut off? Why is fossil record proof of evolution acceptable up until six million years ago and then suddenly suspect?  Why do chimps share 99% of our DNA? How come Neanderthals could use tools far more complex than anything except those used by humans (and maybe even musical instuments)?
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Goober5000

  • HLP Loremaster
  • 214
    • Goober5000 Productions
Of course they never point out that only YECs are still debating the issue because everyone else has moved on.
Eh, explain people like Dawkins then.  He hasn't moved on; he's nearly an evolutionary evangelist.

Quote
Why do chimps share 99% of our DNA?
DNA is an instruction manual, not a template.  Constructing a cell requires a massive amount of information because you're making the fundamental building blocks of an organism.  Going from cells to tissues takes less information but is still very complicated.  Then you've got to get from tissue to organs, and from organs to systems.  Once you have a whole bunch of systems to use, it takes comparatively far less information to differentiate between animals.  Once you've gotten from mammals to primates, you require a lot less incremental information.  So the 1% difference isn't that surprising.  It took about a billion years to go from prokaryotes to eukaryotes, after all, and that's about 25% of the length of time life has been around.


Am I the only one who heard alarm bells ringing when the word "prophet" appeared in this thread?
Nope.

Quote
1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
(emphasis mine)

Nevertheless, true prophets do indeed exist.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Eh, explain people like Dawkins then.  He hasn't moved on; he's nearly an evolutionary evangelist.


Not really. Dawkins main goal is point out that God doesn't exist. Not to prove that evolution is correct. Even if tomorrow every YEC suddenly realised that they were wrong I doubt that would stop him from writing books about evolution (Something he does very well) or trying to point out that there is no good reason to believe God exists.

And for that matter I happen to think that Dawkins takes the completely wrong track because although he's 100% correct his tactlessness is partially responsible for the fact that certain people can't tell the difference between evolution and atheism. Which makes my job of explaining it much harder. Of course he's not completely to blame. The fact that someone like Charismatic could have it explained to him about 40 times that no one is saying that accepting evolution doesn't mean you have to give up believing in God and still not get it does show you what you're dealing with.

Quote
Quote
Why do chimps share 99% of our DNA?
DNA is an instruction manual, not a template.  Constructing a cell requires a massive amount of information because you're making the fundamental building blocks of an organism.  Going from cells to tissues takes less information but is still very complicated.  Then you've got to get from tissue to organs, and from organs to systems.  Once you have a whole bunch of systems to use, it takes comparatively far less information to differentiate between animals.  Once you've gotten from mammals to primates, you require a lot less incremental information.  So the 1% difference isn't that surprising.  It took about a billion years to go from prokaryotes to eukaryotes, after all, and that's about 25% of the length of time life has been around.


You appear to be making the assumption that there is only one way to do a task and that's not true.

Suppose I gave two programmers the task of building an application. One has the code for a very similar application and the other one is starting from scratch. Do you really think that the two apps would be identical once finished? Or do you think that the application built using the code from the first would have vast portions completely untouched while the one programmed from scratch would have found a completely different way to handle the task?

Now look for bits of code that are commented out. You'll find that they are almost identical because there was no real reason for the coder who was upgrading the old program to touch them at all.


The same is true in human vs chimp comparisons. The DNA is the same even when there are other proteins that could do the same task. You haven't considered that large portions of DNA in both humans and chimps don't even code any proteins. They don't do anything at all. They're just along for the ride. And if you compare these against chimp DNA which also does nothing you'll find no more variation than you'd expect from a few million years of random mutation and other environmental changes.

So even if you deny that humans evolved from the same ancestor as the chimp you're saying that when God created humanity he fiddled with their DNA until it looked exactly the same as it would if they had. Even going so far as to go in and add all the non-coding DNA that wouldn't do anything even though there was no need to do this whatsoever.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 02:05:33 am by karajorma »
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
Of course they never point out that only YECs are still debating the issue because everyone else has moved on.
Eh, explain people like Dawkins then.  He hasn't moved on; he's nearly an evolutionary evangelist.

No, Dawkins is an aetheist evangelist and a biologist.  There's a difference; but it's understandable not to see it when much of his career has had to defending his field it from attacks formed solely upon deliberate, religious motivated, lies.  Have you read any of Dawkins' biology work?  If he evangelises anything, IMO it's the incredible complexity of life and nature.  Evolution is simply the method for explaining that.

 

Offline Ford Prefect

  • 8D
  • 26
  • Intelligent Dasein
To be perfectly fair, I find Dawkins' "atheist evangelism" slightly irritating. There are so many people trotting around now who think they're so clever because they can shoot down ontological arguments, and apparently nobody's bothered to tell them that it's been so long since Kant and Hume tore everybody a new one that philosophers don't even care about god anymore.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
To be perfectly fair, I find Dawkins' "atheist evangelism" slightly irritating. There are so many people trotting around now who think they're so clever because they can shoot down ontological arguments, and apparently nobody's bothered to tell them that it's been so long since Kant and Hume tore everybody a new one that philosophers don't even care about god anymore.

I have to admit agreeing on that; Dawkins simply doesn't need to do things like The God Delusion (although I think it's still useful to do so, especially as it's a viewpoint rarely espoused on TV*).  He's an excellent scientific writer and just conveying the facts is an effective way of 'evangelising' evolution (in the same sense as looking at grass is your eyes 'evangelising' that it's green).

*Dawkins did a 2-episode TV series to correspond to the book on Channel 4, which was followed IIRC by a 'rebuttal' programme.

 

Offline Getter Robo G

  • 211
  • Elite Super Robot Pilot
I consider myself a Christian and I have no trouble accepting evolution as the more logical and provable explanation.

Sorry, but I think organized religion is very very bad. The Bible was written by flawed men thousands of years ago with a flawed message and many inconsistencies. Plus the Vatican (The Catholics) sin against God every single day, so that leaves them out as well.

Now can it not be true that "GOD" created evolution? The Bible was written by men who had not the understanding of what they were actually trying to write about except in the most fundamental and often miscommunicated way.

When they say the Earth was created in 6 days could it not actually be 6 billion years? What is a day to God? Do you know? Of course you don't.

I had been watching a TV evangelist off and on lately and it was fine until he started spouting off how the geological record was false cause of the Flood. I was like WTF? "carbon 14 dating is off cause of water and volcanic eruption etc.." I turned my tv off...

He claimed Humanity has only existed like 10-20 thousand years. I was like MF what about LUCY in Africa isn't she like 4 million years old??? If God can't explain her you need to get the hell out of my living room! :D

It's nice people believe in God, but not to the point of stupidity when facts that are pretty much indisputable are staring you in the face. Denial does no impress me or sway me to their opinion. In fact it simply makes them look retarded to me.

God made me in his image says the Bible. That may be 100% true but not as we think of the process. Every day Humanity learns more and is capable of more affecting ourselves and our environment. If this progresses maybe if we are lucky it will grow to encompass our solar system or even galaxy.

Then consider as we make these leaps we are also changing and growing is that NOT evolution. Are we not becoming more and more like God? IS this NOT God's plan? We not only are in the image of God we also have been given these abilities and growth BY God to become more like him. If we weren't supposed to become more than we once were the any sort of diety would never bother to create us.

Either a.) we were purposefully created with our creator's foreknowledge that we WOULD evolve and grow. Thus God is the Ultimate Scientist (This I'd like to believe)

or b.) We are a Mistake or Happy Accident by random factors in the Universe and GOD was not involved, we invented him or his involvement.

And you know what? Odds are this is 50/50 but that's where faith comes in and I choose letter A Monty... :D

EVOLUTION FTW!!!

And BTW animals have language, that's why they make noises (it's called vocal communication, try it sometime.)
Piss off your pet next time and see what noise they make (be it a growl, harsh chirp, or whatever...) They're trying to tell you THAT THEY ARE ANGRY!!! (mumbles) Morons...

"Don't think of it as being out-numbered, think of it as having a WIDE target selection!"

"I am the one and ONLY Star Dragon..."
Proof for the noobs:  Member Search

[I'm Just an idea guy, NOT: a modeler, texturer, or coder... Word of advice, "Watch out for the ducks!"]

Robotech II - Continuing...
FS2 Trek - Snails move faster than me...
Star Blazers: Journey to Iscandar...
FS GUNDAM - The Myth lives on... :)

  

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
The reason religious people tend to object to evolution is that evolution shows that we don't need God to explain life on earth.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Well given that "Where do we come from?" has been their major hook for centuries it's hardly surprising.

Pity they don't realise that it's not a question for them in the first place. "Why are we here?" is more of a question for religions to attempt to answer. They only got "Where do we come from?" because till a couple of hundred years ago no one else had an answer.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline MP-Ryan

  • Makes General Discussion Make Sense.
  • Global Moderator
  • 210
  • Keyboard > Pen > Sword
The same is true in human vs chimp comparisons. The DNA is the same even when there are other proteins that could do the same task. You haven't considered that large portions of DNA in both humans and chimps don't even code any proteins. They don't do anything at all. They're just along for the ride. And if you compare these against chimp DNA which also does nothing you'll find no more variation than you'd expect from a few million years of random mutation and other environmental changes. 

It's time for a genetics lesson! (Not that I'm contradicting you, karajorma, just figured this could use some elaboration).

A lot of people don't understand the molecular mechanisms behind evolution, so here's a summarized lecture of a 400-level evo-devo class for free =)

The central dogma of molecular biology is that DNA is transcribed to RNA, which is translated into protein.  Proteins are the workers of the cell:  as enzymes, as ion channels, as linkers, as identifiers, and in dozens of other functions, proteins make life work.

At least, that's what we USED to think.

Turns out RNA can be reverse transcripted into DNA.  RNA can also act as an enzyme - it can be a worker in the same capacity as protein.  RNA can also act as an enzyme on itself, performing editing and self-cleavage functions.  In some bacteria, RNA does as much work as proteins.  In fact, a well-accepted hypothesis is that RNA actually existed before DNA or protein functions.  DNA is more stable than RNA, so it has evolved as information storage.  Proteins are more robust than RNA, so they function better as enzymes.

But, we've still got a problem in that RNA has kept these enzymatic functions - we see them in all forms of life.  So why, if better mechanisms have evolved, does RNA still maintain these functions?

Two reasons:  1.  because they work.  2.  Flexibility.

People often cite that humans and chimps are 99% identical.  That figure is actually misleading.  Humans and chimps are 99% identical at the base-pair (code level).  At the expression level, we're very different.  For a long time humans were perplexed why some creatures have upwards of 150,000 protein-coding regions, yet humans only have between 35 and 45 thousand.  The answer is RNA editing.  We express millions (if not billions) of proteins, but we do it through complex regulation encoded in the "junk" DNA in our cell.  RNA is instructed to self-edit.  Thus, one coding fragment can produce a thousand different proteins.

Someone is probably asking what this has to do with chimps and humans and evolution.

Evolution is the great miser, traditionally.  Whatever works, it keeps, and whatever doesn't, dies.  But this isn't actually entirely true at the DNA level.

DNA doesn't have a perfect copying mechanism - far from it.  Cells don't have backups (even the pairing scheme doesn't constitute a full backup for a variety of reason much too complex to explain here).  So DNA frequently gets long "junk" regions that don't mean anything stuck in it, or long regions deleted.  These regions are the mechanism of evolution on the molecular scale.  Contrary to popular belief that mutation of protein-coding regions is what causes evolution, it's actually DNA modification in junk regions that drives evolution.  Example:

Between the gene ALPHA1 and the gene BETA1 there could be a stretch of bases that runs GCTACAAAATTTTAAAATTTTAAAATTTTCG

Codons (triplets of bases) code for amino acids (protein building blocks).  So, we have GCT-ACA-AAA-TTT-etc  But this doesn't mean anything.  It's junk DNA - it has no regulator, it has no start codon, it's got nothing.  It has no function.  But delete the first two bases (a common occurrence).  Now the first codon is TAC.  In RNA, that's AUG - the codon that signals for methionine, the start sequence of all protein translation.  Suddenly, a region that COULD code for a protein is between two actual genes.  What happens if one of those genes gets deleted, or misfunctions?  It's regulatory region begins to act on the first available coding sequence.  Suddenly we have a previously unknown protein appearing.  This might be beneficial, or it might kill the organism.  That's natural selection.

This is only one example.  DNA breaks, re-aligns, deletes, adds bases, changes bases, adds regions, combines chromosomes, and generally acts in a way that's anything BUT completely stable.  But if it was completely stable, nothing would evolve.

It's actually remarkable that any species DOES resemble another - and this is the basis on which we generate evolutionary trees.  Complex algorithms are used to compare all regions, not just coding regions.  What we find is that we can actually trace, at the molecular level, changes between organisms.  Now, we can't estimate exactly what happened between species (there are approximately 3 billion base-pairs in human DNA, and we have a SMALL genome).  1% of 3 billion is 30 million base-pairs.  Considering the average gene, including coding and regulatory regions, is only a few thousand base pairs, there's a lot of variation in 1%.  Of course, most of that is regulatory regions and unknown elements that appear in "junk" DNA.  In reality, while estimates for junk DNA in the cell usually fit somewhere about 50% of the total genome, that figure is probably much, much lower.  We have nothing more than a basic grasp of how the human genome works.

So now that you know the details behind the mechanism, consider this:  why is code conserved between humans and mice?  Between humans and fungi?  Betweens humans and protozoans?  Betweens humans and reptiles?  (I'm not touching bacteria here because there's an alternative explanation other than evolution).  Obviously these regions are essential for life.  And we can see how variation has occurred over time.  Molecular genetics illustrates the variation that occurs at the DNA level between organismsms, which ultimately demonstrates how remarkably DIFFERENT all species are, yet also how remarkably similar.  It's clear that humans are related to primates.  It's clear that we're related to other mammals.  And it's clear that species do change over time - there are genetic differences even between our ancestors 10,000 years ago and modern humans.

But, we're not a product of just our genes - our genes are a product of our environment.  Environment favours certain types of gene expression, and rejects others.  The driving force behind evolution is not genetic change - it's environmental change.  Genetic plasticity is merely the mechanism by which it occurs.  Even then, congenital and developmental defects are not always driven by changes at a genetic coding level - rather, gene expression is variable, and environment is what determines gene expression (and I'm referring to environment in the sense of anything surrounding DNA, including protein, lipid, other cells, viruses, bacteria, pathogenic host cells, dirt, metal ions, cellular-interactions, and everything right on up to the elephant that steps on your big toe).  Thus, species occupy niches determined by a combination of their genes and the environment in which they develop.

Really, the only problem evolution poses for Creationists is thus:  First, the age of the Earth.  Second, the fact that life changes over time, rather than remaining static.  Creationism is a plausible metaphor for understanding how life changes to occupy niches in a simplistic understanding.  Evolution is how this occurs in an observable way.

But this brings up another bit of food for thought:  Anyone who can look at DNA and think evolution is purely "random" is missing the big picture.  A combination of genetic plasticity, developmental plasticity, and environmental plasticity drive evolution.  Thus evolution is actually directed by the forces of Nature, the laws of physics.  If you want to define those forces and laws as "God in the details" you're welcome to.  There is an elegance to life and natural laws that science cannot, and never will be able to fully explain.  This is why humans have developed and (I argue) actually need some form of Faith (which may not be religious Faith, mind you).  It is just necessary to remember that Faith should accomodate understanding, not oppose it.

Hope this made sense.  If anyone has further questions, I have a shorter discussion on why many higher organisms look identical at a certain stage of development that illustrates this further, and perhaps a little more simplistically.
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 

Offline Charismatic

  • also known as Ephili
  • 210
  • Pilot of the GTVA
    • EVO
ok i read, most of what chatter involved my side of this discussion. I skipped some crap about darwin or w\e, sorry. Im tired and am almost not arsed to reply just yet, but here it goes.
BTW i forgot to ask my dad again, but it will happen.

Ryan, you call that brief? LOL.
EDIT: Crap, thought u said 'brief lesson'. My bad.

Quote
This is something that really annoys me.  There IS NO evolution/creation debate.  It's not a debate.  Evolution is a solid theory.  Creationism is a Faith-based interpretation of the world.  The two can be compatible.

I wholeheartedly agree with the above statement... and I'm also a firm believer in the Christian faith.
Evolution (or more specifically, the basic theory therein) is not contradictory to faith. Some of the finer points of the evolutionist attitude I may not agree with (such as humans supposedly evolving from apes), but the basic theory is perfectly compatible.
I am sorry but I do not believe, one can be a 'true' Christian, so to speak, and still beleive in Evolution. You claim you 'beleive' in god, yet, you subscribe to Evolution to 'explain things in facts'. I just dont see how that works. God tells us how things went down. God did not say man evolved by mutation. I dont feel like getting into this one that deep. But, i do think that the beleive you can go dual beleifs is a lie, twisting the facts to make you think you can do both. You cant walk down two roads at once, so to speak. And please, no witty comments about highways or whatever please.

*SNIP*
Quote
1 Corinthians 14:5
I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
Yes that is true, and i do not see any incorrect transilations. Do you all understand what this scripture is saying, or shall i explain it? I actualy think you guys will say 'i understand it' when you really dont.

I dont trust translations. Im taking a course on (sections of) the bible now, and learning a lot about much of it. King James edition, for example, is using language 400 years olf, that no longer makes sense anyways.
My Favorite version, and the one i hold true to, is the KJV. The new KJV is fine, but the KJV makes sences, tho its alittle hard to read. I figure it has been transilated less times and is correct. Alot of the new bibles are comeing out with ****ed up meanings, like; it meant one thing, but they made it sound to mean another in the new version.

well is that wrong? are we still supposed to run into prophets today?
Yes we are, no its not wrong.

Am I the only one who heard alarm bells ringing when the word "prophet" appeared in this thread?
I knew it would get your guys attention. The prophets name is Owen Johnson (sp?). His son died in a accident a while back, and had some.. place, named after him.

well... according to the bible, can there still be prophets? (y/n)
Y.

No, some are serving their own agenda. Not all. Trusting prophets is a risk in some cases, as some are not trustworthy and some are.
I personally do not accept that youtube vid, i claim it as bs. Yeah u guessed my reaction. But meh, its my first impression.

And yes i know and beleive that some, or most, televangelists are BS. I tend to like watching them cauze i look for all the BS they say. Sometimes they speak truth, sometimes, not so. I know some ppl are bull and are traiend to read ppl.

Perhaps my point wasn't clear; it was late, after all.

Your creationist position seems to entirely be based upon the unquestioning belief of one person, or theology, without questioning the basis behind that.  Now, that might be fine from a religious-worship point of view, but when questioning the observations made by not just one scientist but the entire scientific community I think you have to also question those you feed you these positions.   Because I've seen things in these evolution debates where people have posted 'facts' for creationism that simply are lies.  Not wrong, not misunderstood, but deliberate lies told to them from a position of (religious, sometimes posited as scientific) authority.

The fact that you immediately look at something challenging your pespective and go 'bs' without any apparent consideration or thought, make me greatly worried.  How - or why - can you go through life with such an uncritical, unreasonable (in the very literal sense of 'reason') attitude?  Until you are capable of actively considering things - which does not mean rejecting your faith - with an open mind, you'll be stuck in a dogmatic attitude that I think effectively holds you back.
Are you saying i have spit out lies in this thread, or the last one?
And yes, i am able, and i do fully conciter things. I am capable to look at all angles of debates and situations. I am not blind and i do not shut out every view that disagrees with me, and label it bull****. I am not a child.


Am I the only one who heard alarm bells ringing when the word "prophet" appeared in this thread?
Nope.

Quote
1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
(emphasis mine)

Nevertheless, true prophets do indeed exist.

What alamrs went off when i said prophet?

And do you guys know what This passage means either? You guys quote scripture and know not what it means.
I consider myself a Christian and I have no trouble accepting evolution as the more logical and provable explanation.
A less confuzing more down-to-earth explination, yes. But how can you pick and choose what parts of the bible to beleive?
Sorry, but I think organized religion is very very bad. The Bible was written by flawed men thousands of years ago with a flawed message and many inconsistencies. Plus the Vatican (The Catholics) sin against God every single day, so that leaves them out as well.
And how do you know those men were flawd? How can you possibly prove that? How do they have a flawd message? Have you read nothing in the bible? And people sin, Vaticans sin, everyone sins. Thats why we can ask God for forgiveness. Does that mean, that everyone who sins, does not believe in god? NO. Your logic is worse then mine, and im surpirzed no one else sees this.
Now can it not be true that "GOD" created evolution? The Bible was written by men who had not the understanding of what they were actually trying to write about except in the most fundamental and often miscommunicated way.
Have you ever heard the term 'led by the spirit'. Miscommunicated way? Fine, what were tehy really trying to tell us? Let me guess. its something Different then what they ACTUALLY DID TELL US. How convenient. And you are also flawd. God showed Peter, in a vision, what the **** he was susposed to write down, and he DID. Read Revelation. Plus there are other parts in the bible where god told\showed people what to write down. So they did not need to understand, but God mostlikely showed them what He meant anyways.
When they say the Earth was created in 6 days could it not actually be 6 billion years? What is a day to God? Do you know? Of course you don't.
Lol this is one of the first things you guys try to trip us up on. Well think about it. He created the sun right? I believe 6 days is 6 24 hour days. Its easy to tell its not (365*1billion) sunrieses. We can tell when the next day comes, in morning.
I had been watching a TV evangelist off and on lately and it was fine until he started spouting off how the geological record was false cause of the Flood. I was like WTF? "carbon 14 dating is off cause of water and volcanic eruption etc.." I turned my tv off...
Dont trust all of them to be correct. Read Sandwiches quote.
He claimed Humanity has only existed like 10-20 thousand years. I was like MF what about LUCY in Africa isn't she like 4 million years old??? If God can't explain her you need to get the hell out of my living room! :D
Yeah i agree with him, about 10-20K years. Who says God cant explain 'her'.
It's nice people believe in God, but not to the point of stupidity when facts that are pretty much indisputable are staring you in the face. Denial does no impress me or sway me to their opinion. In fact it simply makes them look retarded to me.
How can you just beleive in god, and then go and believe in Evolution to explain things?
God made me in his image says the Bible. That may be 100% true but not as we think of the process. Every day Humanity learns more and is capable of more affecting ourselves and our environment. If this progresses maybe if we are lucky it will grow to encompass our solar system or even galaxy.
The process of face-lifts and plastic surgury? Um...
Then consider as we make these leaps we are also changing and growing is that NOT evolution. Are we not becoming more and more like God? IS this NOT God's plan? We not only are in the image of God we also have been given these abilities and growth BY God to become more like him. If we weren't supposed to become more than we once were the any sort of diety would never bother to create us.
Well define evolution. But we have not spanded the galixy yet. Do you claim you know gods plan? Lol. Look and abilities are different ,ol yeller. You may get a facelift and look like me, but i would still beat your ass in a fight, or a race, or anything else. So you claim, if you get a body-lift (whatever) to look like Arnold, you can pick up cars, and do amazing thigns? Lol. Nice claim.
Either a.) we were purposefully created with our creator's foreknowledge that we WOULD evolve and grow. Thus God is the Ultimate Scientist (This I'd like to believe)
Lol. So hes a scientist now? HAHA.
or b.) We are a Mistake or Happy Accident by random factors in the Universe and GOD was not involved, we invented him or his involvement.
So god can make mistakes, mess up, and not know the consiquencs.
And you know what? Odds are this is 50/50 but that's where faith comes in and I choose letter A Monty... :D

EVOLUTION FTW!!!

And BTW animals have language, that's why they make noises (it's called vocal communication, try it sometime.)
Piss off your pet next time and see what noise they make (be it a growl, harsh chirp, or whatever...) They're trying to tell you THAT THEY ARE ANGRY!!! (mumbles) Morons..

:::PROUD VASUDAN RIGHTS SUPPORTER:::
M E M O R I A L :: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,46987.msg957350.html#new

"IIRC Windows is not Microsoft."

"(CENSORED) Galatea send more than two (CENSORED) fighters to escort your (CENSORED) three mile long (CENSORED), STUPID (CENSORED).  (CENSORED) YOU, YOU (CENSORED)!!!"

 

Offline Topgun

  • 210
You can not believe in the bible and evolution, I know a lot about both (I am not saying that I know more about evolution, just a lot. (I did take college biology for a year). I am saying that I know more about the bible though).

I hate it when people try to marry 2 apposing things just so that everyone can be "right".
Note: I am not going to say which one I believe in.

 

Offline Goober5000

  • HLP Loremaster
  • 214
    • Goober5000 Productions
You appear to be making the assumption that there is only one way to do a task
No, I'm not.  If humans are based on chimps, all you need to do to get a human from a chimp is to take chimp DNA and tweak a few things.  The code to lay the foundation of cells, tissues, and organs is already present and working and doesn't need to be messed with.  This is true whether the agent of change is God or evolution.

The point I was trying to make is that one percent is not necessarily an indicator of how similar animals are.  Evolution has been exponential, not constant.  You may as well say that because it took 10,000 years to get from the wheel to the locomotive, but only 200 to get from the locomotive to the maglev, that the maglev is only 2% different from the locomotive.

EDIT: I see that MP-Ryan said the same thing, only a lot more thoroughly. :)

Incidentally, I've been inclined lately to plead "no contest" to evolution.  Augustine warned about applying science to theology back in the 400s. :)

Quote
Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he hold to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn.

The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
Quote
Are you saying i have spit out lies in this thread, or the last one?
And yes, i am able, and i do fully conciter things. I am capable to look at all angles of debates and situations. I am not blind and i do not shut out every view that disagrees with me, and label it bull****. I am not a child.

If you have repeated creationist / intelligent design dogma, I'm afraid so.  The standard ID/creationist tactic is to discredit evidenced science by lying about the evidence being present.  It's entirely understandable, if you only get given one side of the story. 

But I would question either your desire to consider opposing evidence or correctly weigh it if you still believe evolution is anything other than scientific 'fact' (in the same sense as gravity being scientific 'fact'), given your participation in prior threads.

This quote;
Quote
I am sorry but I do not believe, one can be a 'true' Christian, so to speak, and still beleive in Evolution. You claim you 'beleive' in god, yet, you subscribe to Evolution to 'explain things in facts'. I just dont see how that works. God tells us how things went down. God did not say man evolved by mutation. I dont feel like getting into this one that deep. But, i do think that the beleive you can go dual beleifs is a lie, twisting the facts to make you think you can do both. You cant walk down two roads at once, so to speak. And please, no witty comments about highways or whatever please.

is pretty strong evidence for me of a dogmatic, blind view.  Especially given that most major denominations of christianity are happy to recognise evolution as valid - because the alternative would be admitting that the obervable world and centuries of scientific endeavour have voided the concept of life directly created by God.  Essentially, justifying creationism means you have to say every single scientific discovery since the 19th century (and probably before) is wrong.  THat includes the science allowing you to type on this forum, and the science that allows doctors to, say, stitch you back up after a car crash.

Or do you believe that the earth is flat, 5,000 years old and was made in 6 days?