Author Topic: Happy Darwin Day!  (Read 17387 times)

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Offline Ford Prefect

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Offline MP-Ryan

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You need to read carefully before replying, Janus.  Both my posts.

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No we are not! We are more complicated and, maybe, have a more diverse evolutionary history and may have a wider genome with more variation. However, "advance" is a quality term and beyond our everyday communication has no meaning in evolutionary terms - the only thing that matters is fitness, and that has nothing to do with phenotype itself. We being cladistically "above" our ancestors does not indicate a qualitative supremacy above them - it only says that we are descended from an organism A, that our genotype differs significantly. You are trying to apply quality terms into evolutionary discussion, which is inane.

To prove a point: In what way are we more advanced than our recent ancestor, in objective and provable way?

I defined "advancement" as an increased rate of survival, or, greater fitness.  Species are constantly fluctuating in fitness - which is why some die, some survive.  Hence my discussion about "point" evaluation.  Please make an effort to read and understand what I'm getting at before running off.  "Qualitative supremacy" as you put it is fitness; we exist, our ancestors don't.   Homo sapiens has greater fitness than Australopithecus, to choose an example - otherwise they'd be around today (primate evolution occurs by differentiation and reproductive isolation, as with most species).  You're reading advanced in a way other than I defined it in my discussion.

This comes back to the nonsense they teach in high school biology and early college classes about evolution which is overly simplistic at best.  All species are not equal in evolutionary terms at any period in time - some are more fit (or more advanced, as I termed it for simplicity's sake) than others.  We are more fit (or advanced) than our ancestors.

I'm not saying we're more advanced than some species of insects because we build computers, I'm saying we're more advanced than some spcies of insects because humans live and breed in every place on Earth, while the particular insect species I'm referring to are dying out as their habitat is destroyed.  We've adapted - they didn't.  We're more advanced - or more fit.

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Of course we are, since the selection pressures that morph our geno- and phenotypes are constantly changing.

Which I said.  Twice.  With examples.

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No no no no. We are related because we have similar taxonomical history - we share common ancestor and our morphological forms are more closely related to each other than to other taxons outside this cladistical tree. If you chase this idea far enough you end up with one ancestor to all chordates and so on.
Of course, a percentage of genotype does not in any way indicate similarity or difference in phenotype. 1% difference - or 0.01% difference - can be huge if those different genes code completely different proteins which effect the procreative differences between the populations.

Now I KNOW you didn't read my earlier post.  Go read it now please.  I said this - in more detail, correctly (morphology has nothing to do with modern cladistics, thanks), with mechanisms.  Sheesh.

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Molecular biology and evolutionary biology are very complex fields of science. The evolution is only directed at fitness - whoever breeds the most, under the specific circumstances, has the most offspring. It's quite simply and very complicated, both at the same time.

And?

Again, you're doing nothing more than reiterating points I've already made, in a more simplistic fashion to boot.  I'm discussing mechanisms of evolution - you're rehashing high school biology.  Which would be fine, except I've already posted a simplification of a post-graduate evolution-development summation.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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I notice you're both claiming I support your points.

Nope. I said that I disagreed with Goober's assessment that your posts said I was wrong.

Fair enough.  Neither of you are wrong. =)
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Offline Mefustae

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I can easily [believe the world was created 5000 years ago].
Quick question; can you remember who initially taught you this? Pastor? Family member?

 

Offline Janos

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You need to read carefully before replying, Janus.  Both my posts.
[words]
U NEED TO READ MEIN KUSTOM TITLE RARARAGRARAG

Ok fine fine fine, whatever, point, but if you define advancement in terms of adaptability then how advanced are rat, raven and house fly? I mean, by this definition every single species is more "advanced" than any previous species:
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I defined "advancement" as an increased rate of survival, or, greater fitness.  Species are constantly fluctuating in fitness - which is why some die, some survive.  Hence my discussion about "point" evaluation.  Please make an effort to read and understand what I'm getting at before running off.  "Qualitative supremacy" as you put it is fitness; we exist, our ancestors don't.   Homo sapiens has greater fitness than Australopithecus, to choose an example - otherwise they'd be around today (primate evolution occurs by differentiation and reproductive isolation, as with most species).

lol wtf

 

Offline Ghostavo

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I'm not saying we're more advanced than some species of insects because we build computers, I'm saying we're more advanced than some spcies of insects because humans live and breed in every place on Earth, while the particular insect species I'm referring to are dying out as their habitat is destroyed.  We've adapted - they didn't.  We're more advanced - or more fit.

Won't virus and bacteria be the most advanced lifeforms then?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2007, 04:36:07 am by Ghostavo »
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Offline Ace

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That's the great irony: the more successful so called 'advanced' life is, the so much more successful viruses are.

Hell, we've sent bacteria to the moon and mars, and probably even to Titan despite NASA's claims that "we got them all this time..."
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Offline MP-Ryan

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I'm not saying we're more advanced than some species of insects because we build computers, I'm saying we're more advanced than some spcies of insects because humans live and breed in every place on Earth, while the particular insect species I'm referring to are dying out as their habitat is destroyed.  We've adapted - they didn't.  We're more advanced - or more fit.

Won't virus and bacteria be the most advanced lifeforms then?

Some particular bacteria are arguably the most advanced form of life on Earth.  They're also one of the simplest.  Go figure.  Archaea are even stranger.

Viruses are more complicated, because there is considerable debate over whether or not they are actually forms of life.  If you include viruses, however, arguably the most advanced form of life on Earth is Human papilloma virus, which over 80% of the population carries (harmlessly).
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Offline Col. Fishguts

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Earth is a sphere. The Earth is 6-10k years old. No joke.

Since I've heard to many shoddy arguments from creationists about how faulty dating by radio-isotopes is, food for thought:

http://chem.tufts.edu/science/astronomy/SN1987A.html

A nice straight-forward proof that the universe is at least 168'000 years old, using basic physics and trigonometry.

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Offline Mobius

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Very nice proof.


What fo creationists think about Dinosaurs, sea scorpions and other prehistoric creatures? Geez...
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Offline karajorma

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The two explanations I hear most often are

1) They're the bodies of creatures that died in The Great Flood
2) They were put there deliberately by God to test everyone's faith.
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Offline Mobius

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They're two stupid explananations.

I simply can't believe the creationists exist. Maybe God put them here deliberately to test our faith on(in?)science.
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Offline Ace

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Nay, they were 'intelligently designed' for our humor.

Afterall this Saturday morning 'Dr. Dino' as he called himself said that black people have souls.

Fools, no meatbags have souls! Only perfect... immortal... machines have souls.

Robot Jesus shall smite him for his blasphemy!
Ace
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Offline Mefustae

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Robot Jesus shall smite him for his blasphemy!
Pfft, Zombie Jesus could kick Robot Jesus' ass... if Robot Jesus had an ass.

 

Offline Flipside

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I do find it moderately amusing that some creationists are complaining because Religion is finding itself confronted by a group of people who have information so complex and difficult to understand that the average person can only accept general facts, because details require a degree in Biology. In many ways, ironically enough, it is similar in effect to the technique used in the 16th century by the church, right up until the first translations to English started to appear.

I'm afraid that 'it's too complex to understand it!' didn't work for my Pure Maths tutor, and it doesn't work for investigating the origins of life.

And my moneys on Robot Zombie Monkey Jesus with Rocket Launcher Tail (tm).

 

Offline Ace

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Robot Jesus shall smite him for his blasphemy!
Pfft, Zombie Jesus could kick Robot Jesus' ass... if Robot Jesus had an ass.

You can kiss his shiny metal ass thank you!

Yes, the problem with modern academia is the exact same problem as the Church before the Reformation. Having to rely on limited resources for research with limited publishing means that information doesn't get out to the public.

Why the hell in every archaeology class when I'm stuck with a non-major am I stuck doing 'Egypt' instead of other civilizations just as complex? Because the knowledge isn't getting out there.

Let's face it, good easily digestible and accurate scientific knowledge isn't getting out there. We have what... Nova... and that's about it. ...and half of the few things left on the Discovery channel are pretty damn inaccurate due to being so dated.

The real trick is moreso getting information out quick and to as many as possible.

With the technology we now have it's also a lot easier to give people things they can play and explore with.

Think radiocarbon dating is bunk? Well here's a 3d model of how AMR works, and you can play with the particle accelerator and atoms while also looking at some photos of the dig site.

Pretty much programs like Celestia but made prettier, more accessible, and more data.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2007, 06:00:51 pm by Ace »
Ace
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Offline Mobius

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Disgaea's Celestia? :lol:
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Offline Bobboau

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it really is sad that the discovery channel has turned into a reality TV and fiction channel
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Offline KappaWing

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it really is sad that the discovery channel has turned into a reality TV and fiction channel

Agreed, TLC also used to have some substance but now its all repetitive reality show rejects, home and garden crap, and other BS. The few music videos MTV does display are cut to under a minute to fit the attention span, littered with pesky commentary and huge flashing visual artifacts, and the most annoying filler in between - stupid teenagers sitting on a crowded beach doing absolutley nothing.

The History Channel seems to get better though. They keep it tr00.
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Offline Ford Prefect

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What's the History Channel?

Ohhhhh, you must mean the Hitler Footage Channel.
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