[Sphynx]

Several people have expressed an interest in a mission editor for Wing Commander Saga. As a response to that interest, we encourage those who want to create misisons to download both the mission editor and the original FS2 FRED tutorial to help any who are interested in learning how to use it. You can get them at http://www.wcsaga.com/downloads/prologue/FRED.rar and http://www.wcsaga.com/downloads/prologue/freddocs.rar.

We would be happy to host any fully-functioning custom missions that anyone creates for Saga to be shared with the whole community, so unleash your creativity and let us see what you can make! 

[AlekTrev006]

Thanks Sphinx !  But how easy is this to use.....need you be a programmer-techie type to use it effectively ??? 

[KeldorKatarn]

The walthrough is pretty well made. After you've done that (and I really recommend doing that) you should be able to do a few small missions without too many problems.
The rest depends on the size of your project of course.

[Starman01]

While it looks first a little overwhelming, it's just a matter of experience and time you spend into it.

Place ships, give them starting orders and make a few event scripts. Those are also quite self explainary (spell ?) , you don't need any real programming knowledge for them and you can select the script parts from a huge list (you don't have to type or develop them on your own)

Easy Example :

when
---Ship X has been destroyed
--then
-----send message Y

That's not 100% like it looks in Fred (there is no "then") but you get the idea.

Of course you can make quite complex event scripts after you get used to it. You just need to start and try it out

[Sphynx]

I'm not a programmer, but I've managed to make a few small missions. Maybe I'll try to refine a few and submit a few of my own. Trial and error, you know. I'd say give it a shot.

[AlekTrev006]

Cool !

So could you program a Fleet Action / Battle with this FRED that you speak of ?  (What does FRED stand for anyways ?)


----

What I'm imagining is something like:


Terran Heavy Carrier

2 Terran Cruisers

2 Terran Destroyers

1 Frigate

4 Corvettes


12 Arrows

12 Hellcats

6 Thunderbolts

6 Longbows



VS.



3 Kilrathi Cruisers

5 Kilrathi Destroyers


(Waves of Fighters)

1st Wave - 8 Gothris , 4 Darkets

2nd Wave - 8 Dralthis, 4 Vaktoth

3rd Wave - 4 Gothris, 4 Dralthis

4th Wave - 8 Gothris, 8 Dralthis

[Turey]

Cool !

So could you program a Fleet Action / Battle with this FRED that you speak of ?  (What does FRED stand for anyways ?)


----

What I'm imagining is something like:


Terran Heavy Carrier

2 Terran Cruisers

2 Terran Destroyers

1 Frigate

4 Corvettes


12 Arrows

12 Hellcats

6 Thunderbolts

6 Longbows



VS.



3 Kilrathi Cruisers

5 Kilrathi Destroyers


(Waves of Fighters)

1st Wave - 8 Gothris , 4 Darkets

2nd Wave - 8 Dralthis, 4 Vaktoth

3rd Wave - 4 Gothris, 4 Dralthis

4th Wave - 8 Gothris, 8 Dralthis

Sounds possible.

And FRED stands for FReespace EDitor, IIRC.

[karajorma]

It's doable but it's close to what is known as Battle of Endor syndrome where you make huge battles that look cool but are largely pointless to play because the player has no effect on the outcome of the battle.

There are ways to make big battles without falling victim to this but it's not an easy task.

[KeldorKatarn]

Hehehe, you got here first. I was just about to mention the Battle of Endor syndrome

[Sphynx]

It would be difficult to balance, but you could do it. Even if it did end up just as a Battle of Endor situation, if you want to, you can (although I think we find that missions are more fun when you can create them in such a way that the player can have the impact that decides which way the battle turns). And AlexTrev, I think you yourself could put together a rudimentary mission like this after only a short while of learning to use FRED, but of course greater experiences will bring greater refinement to your missions. You can also ask around for FRED help on these forums.

[AlekTrev006]

Wow  - sounds very fun / interesting to experiment with ...what is the link to get "Fred" and how do you get it to interface with SAGA (seeing as it is TECHNICALLY not "Freespace" exactly...right ?)

Also - on Battle of Endor concept - that's cool there is such a term - I've always loved the Battle of Endor scenes in ROTJ.

I would think that you WOULD (the player) have an impact on a fleet battle like that, in much the same way you have an impact on the "DEFEND THE TICONDEROGA" simulator mission in SAGA's Prologue. . .

There are many friendly cap-ships and allied fighters there to assist you - but the waves of Kilrathi and their capital ships make that an extremely tough mission to manage (to survive and defend the carrier I mean).

As long as the battle I proposed had a similiar (overall) objective like - Defend your Heavy Carrier against all attacks while providing support to the other Confed Cap Ships in the fleet when possible - well....that sounds like a battle in which your (Human Player) skills would be very essential and helpful to the mission success / failure ? - Right ?

[Vash]

granted that you have authority over some or all the allied fighter wings. when, like in the prologue, you play the rookie of the wing, you can't tell others what to do (which was annoying at first as i was kinda used to the fact that i could say what everyone was doing) then again, when you can issue orders to other fighter wings/ induvidual fighters, your impact is largers as you can try to cripple the enemy capship engines and weapons while using other wings to cover you and protect your capships from enemy fighters.

[Sphynx]

Good points, Vash. If you add in control of the allied wings, it adds more doability.

@ AlexTrev. You can get FRED from the links at the beginning of this thread.

[karajorma]

The larger a battle gets the harder it becomes to make the players effect on the battle meaningful. To give an extreme example if you could have a mission with a million fighters would it matter in the slightest if the player killed 50 fighters instead of 100?

Okay killing those fighters could have a knock on effect but how hard would it be to balance the mission so that the knock on effect mattered?


That's the basic problem that is faced by Endorian missions. You have to balance the mission so that the mission isn't always fail or always succeed or else the player might as well not be there.

[AlekTrev006]

Well....my one counter to that (suceed-fail) type of argument is that TECHNICALLY - MANY of the missions you are assigned in some Wing games are considerably....NON-vital to the War Effort (on a grand scheme of things) - and even from a "just your carrier" perspective they aren't 100% critical..... you figure the old 4-point patrol they have you fly in probably 30-missions from Wing-I to Wing Prophecy....there are many times you could simply hit the Nav Points....not engage the enemies (just afterburn away from them, then Autopilot when you were at valid A-Pilot range away from them)....and land on the carrier, having "hit" all the Nav Points.

Sure you didn't engage anyone...but that is part of the War too ....in other words, the player should not feel (I would think) like he must destroy an enemy armada each mission to feel he's "Making a difference" in the War or in the day-to-day operations of his Carrier ?


Similiarly, in a large-scale Fleet Action ...if a player (in the mission with numbers like I mentioned earlier) against a large enemy fleet (plus many enemy fighter-wings) ....I would think ANY kills that you are able to score are helpful to your forces.... it's almost ALWAYS going to be the case that a skilled Human Flyer is going to perform "better" on some level than the computer-controlled ships, friendly OR enemy.

So if your allied fighter pilots are capable of shooting down 5-enemy fighters in the course of a battle....you, as the actual Human Player, should be able to do at least around that number YOURSELF (at least that's how it is in most Wing games) - so in those cases I'd say your (Human) impact is QUITE important / helpful - etc.



I mean....if you were in a T-Bolt in that mission I proposed....and could give orders to the other wings (that's a big part of strategy in something like that) - it would be awesome to order Delta Wing Bombers to "torpedo that Destroyer !" - while you tell the Arrow's in the fight to "Cover Delta Wing's attack run !" - MEANWHILE - you and your flight of 4-Tbolts gets a message from your allied Cruiser 5000-klicks to starboard saying they have numerous Gothri's locking torpedoes on them and need immediate assistance from your fighters !

You afterburn over and engage the Gothris while bolts of enemy AMG and turret fire fly between your cruiser and the enemy capital ship that has pulled into gun-range of your carrier group !

As you blast the last Gothri to dust....another Kilrathi destroyer pulls into range and adds its fire into your beleaugured Cruisers shields....!    Delta wing radios back "Enemy Destroyer is down sir !" - and you quickly order the surving Longbows to fly over and attack this NEW Destroyer that's just moved in...

Suddenly another radio message comes from your Heavy Carrier at the center of the formation....they've taken several direct hits from enemy torpedos and are in need of some support as another Kilrathi cruiser is moving into range and engaging them !  - your Allied frigate responds that they will do a 360-degree turn and move to intercept / block the incoming Cruisers arc of fire from hitting your carrier to buy it some time...

They are badly damaged and probably won't survive the exchange of heavy guns, they admit, but they'll do their best to buy the carrier some precious minutes to stabilize her shields and maneuver to bring her stronger shield arcs to point towards the incoming enemy capship !

"Mayday mayday !" - one of your Corvettes calls out as it disintegrates from concentrated Vaktoth and Gothri fire !

The explosion has just died down and is replaced by another one...this time the second enemy Destroyer you ordered Delta wing to attack  !   KA-BOOM!  it is ripped apart by multiple torpedo hits !

Your surviving fighters pull inwards to pick off the other Cat ships.....and your 2 Cruisers turn on an intercept course against the enemy Cruiser that is heading towards your carrier !


"That's it for us  boys....Good luck and godspeed !" - is the last message from your noble Frigate which explodes catastrophically from multiple torpedo and AMG hits from the onrushing Cruiser !


Vowing to finish the enemy capital ship, you throttle your fighter towards it and lock your torpedo on, along with the rest of your wing "ATTACK MY TARGET !"

The combined Torpedo strikes from your fighters, plus the mighty guns of your own cruisers are enough to blast the enemy warship into space dust, though it suceeds in taking down your already damaged Terran cruiser with its final torpedo salvo...


"Great work battle-group....now finish these last enemy fighters and we can get the hell out of this system..." - your carrier radios...

You pick off the final few surviving Cat fighters, while a few of the Light Fighters, perhaps wiser, pull back and return towards their own carrier, far away ...to report the battle results and perhaps prepare for another strike ...


Your mission is over....

Surviving the frantic engagement you have:

1 30%-Hull  Heavy Carrier

1  45%-Hull Terran Cruiser

1 22%-Hull Terran Destroyer

1 53%-Hull Terran Destroyer

3 Corvettes (of various badly damage hull-%'s)


5 Arrows

2 Longbows

3 T-Bolts

5 Hellcats

------------------------

You've taken some heavy losses...but you survived the massive battle...and your command carrier is intact !   

Congratulations on a fantastic effort pilots !



You guys can't tell me that a mission like that would not be DANG-cool !    

[karajorma]

Well....my one counter to that (suceed-fail) type of argument is that TECHNICALLY - MANY of the missions you are assigned in some Wing games are considerably....NON-vital to the War Effort (on a grand scheme of things) - and even from a "just your carrier" perspective they aren't 100% critical..... you figure the old 4-point patrol they have you fly in probably 30-missions from Wing-I to Wing Prophecy....there are many times you could simply hit the Nav Points....not engage the enemies (just afterburn away from them, then Autopilot when you were at valid A-Pilot range away from them)....and land on the carrier, having "hit" all the Nav Points.

Sure you didn't engage anyone...but that is part of the War too ....in other words, the player should not feel (I would think) like he must destroy an enemy armada each mission to feel he's "Making a difference" in the War or in the day-to-day operations of his Carrier ?

Well here we just get into a discussion of FREDding style. I personally consider a mission where you can autopilot away from the enemy having never fought a single ship without suffering any penalty to be deeply flawed at best. In a real war if you did that you'd be spending a couple of weeks peeling potatoes at least for dereliction of duty as that sort of mission performance is basically borderline cowardice and whether or not it helps the war effort I doubt any such pilot would be fully trusted by his CO for a long time.

You guys can't tell me that a mission like that would not be DANG-cool !    

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be cool. What I'm telling you is that you have to appreciate the difficulties in putting together an Endorian mission. I have over 5 years experience of FREDding missions and although I don't like to come off as arrogant I don't think it's immodest to say I have a reputation as one of the better FREDders in the community. So when I say that just thinking about putting together a mission like that gives me the cold sweats I think you should pay attention.

The way you've described things happening is fun but what happens if the player deviates from the plan you have laid out for how you want the mission to go? One of the first things any FREDder needs to learn is that players do not always do what you expected them to do. They frequently disable ships that you thought they would destroy, they spend 5 minutes chasing after a ship you thought they'd leave to a wingman and blow the entire mission because of it. They blunder into enemy fire and spend the entire mission on 1% hull timidly avoiding anything that looks dangerous.

Now I'll freely admit that I'm very anal when it comes to dealing with things where the player can break the mission and I spend hours adding code for stuff that it is likely only one or two people will ever do but even sticking to the easy stuff I can poke quite a few holes in that mission design.

1) What happens if the Gothris and their escorts destroy Delta wing straight away?
2) What happesn if you keep delta wing back and deal with the Gothris yourself so that delta wing can engage the other Kilrathi capships immediately rather than having to turn around and fly back?
3) What happens if the player disables the Kilrathi capships before they are in range of the fleet?
4) What happens if the player disables the torpedo launchers himself before going to deal with the Gothris?

Hell if you FRED the mission I could spend hours finding new holes that would need to be plugged.


Believe me I'm not having a go at you or saying that you can't make Endorian missions. The point I'm trying to make isn't that they aren't fun. It's that they are a lot of hard work to make work correctly. The more ships you put into a mission the more chance there is that a player will screw up in some way and take the entire mission in a direction it wasn't intended to go. This sort of thing happens to all mission designers. A very good example is the last mission of FS2. It's actually possible to prevent the mission ending simply by disabling rather than destroying a certain enemy capship because no one in Volition ever thought that anyone would do that.

[AlekTrev006]

Wow - that's kind of funny (the FS-2 ending thing - can you provide more detail for me since I never played it ?)

Also - I see your point about fredding - it's quite a chore to program stuff apparently - this gives me an appreciation for the work you guys have done on SAGA even more than I had before... :-)

[Turey]

One of the first things any FREDder needs to learn is that players do not always do what you expected them to do. They frequently disable ships that you thought they would destroy,

When I read this, I immediately knew you were going to say this:

A very good example is the last mission of FS2. It's actually possible to prevent the mission ending simply by disabling rather than destroying a certain enemy capship because no one in Volition ever thought that anyone would do that.

Everyone ****s up sometime. Even . 

Wow - that's kind of funny (the FS-2 ending thing - can you provide more detail for me since I never played it ?)

You Saved Capella!

[karajorma]

FRED is one of those things that you can learn in a few days but which even after a few years you'll still be learning and trying new things.

Don't let that discourage you from trying it though. If you start out with smaller missions like in the Prologue you'll probably find you can crank out good missions very quickly. FRED is quite easy to use. It's just that what you were suggesting was very complicated.

Everyone ****s up sometime. Even . 

Yeah. I figure it's best to point that out before people start deliberately trying to poke holes in my missions in revenge

[Turey]

Yeah. I figure it's best to point that out before people start deliberately trying to poke holes in my missions in revenge

As long as it's done in the name of "playtesting," it's ok, right?