[FlyingBadger]

Can't agree with the claims that Half-Life 2 is a bad game.  I suppose you could say its overrated, but its tough to avoid that when the general rating is best PC game of all time, which it isn't.  What could possibly have been wrong with the level design?  Maybe I could tepidly agree that the part starting at Anticitizen One went on a bit long, but there were huge variations in terrain and environment thoughout the game, from tight indoor combat to street combat to vast outdoor fighting.  I could play the assault on Nova Prospekt over and over (and have).  My problem with Half Life 2 is the relative lack of variation in weapons and enemies, but I still loved it.

Halo I think is so highly touted because the multiplayer is pretty fun. 

[CP5670]

What could possibly have been wrong with the level design? 

Well, pretty much everything. The game allowed for absolutely no deviations from the main "path" and was not only horribly linear, but often felt linear in a very artificial way. I remember countless instances of some rubble being arranged in just the right way for you to use it to get over a wall and proceed, with that being the only path you could take. The environments were also extremely repetitive and nearly devoid of any objects or other details. Every rundown house you entered looked exactly like the previous one, with hardly anything in it apart from an enemy or two, and you had to spend hours going through these places. There were some notable exceptions to all this - the short cutscene levels were excellent with the small details, and the last two or three levels also had some cool areas - but they were hardly worth going through all the other dreary levels for.

Valve's map designers seem to be stuck in the 90s and need to take a good look at the nonlinearity in Deus Ex, the meticulous small details in Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory or the overall environment variety in UT2004. In my opinion, these games pretty much set the standards for various aspects of level design and HL2 is downright pathetic in comparison. The HL1 levels were actually more fun to explore and felt more believable (and I don't just mean for their time), since you were not completely confined to a strict, linear path like in HL2.

[Huggybaby]

Black and White had its flaws, I would agree. But there were some good ideas in there.

As for over-rated.........I hate to say it, but my view is Wing Commander. Sorry, CIC guys, but it's true. Leave the story out and the way it's told and what have you got? A bunch of samey missions. Fly somewhere, shoot something. Fly somewhere else, shoot something else. Fly home. Whoopee.

Now, I could tolerate that for the first couple of games, but by the time it got to the fourth, it was getting a bit stale.....

Just my two cents. It's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Do you mean that the WC1 and WC2 games were OK then? Things did certainly change after that.

But then, Fly somewhere, shoot something. Fly somewhere else, shoot something else. Fly home. could describe FS too...

[TrashMan]

HL2....Well, the level design wasn't bad.. what kinda bugged me was the 2mood".. too depresive, too dull a colour scheme. The lvl design itself was OK.

The diffrenece is in HL1 you are running around a high-tech top scret facility, while in HL2 your're runnin around aabandoned buildings and somewha post-apocalyptic towns.
HL1 was one of the best games ever made (by popular vote) so people expected so much from HL2...And when you expect too much, you're gonan end up being dissaponted.

[diceman111]

HL2....Well, the level design wasn't bad.. what kinda bugged me was the 2mood".. too depresive, too dull a colour scheme. The lvl design itself was OK.

The diffrenece is in HL1 you are running around a high-tech top scret facility, while in HL2 your're runnin around aabandoned buildings and somewha post-apocalyptic towns.
HL1 was one of the best games ever made (by popular vote) so people expected so much from HL2...And when you expect too much, you're gonan end up being dissaponted.

Bah the atmosphere in HL2 was excellent ok maybe a bit deprressing but still I think it was better then I thought, now just waiting for Episode Two

[FlyingBadger]

Well, we've got a difference of opinion CP, I really don't want nonlinearity in a first person shooter.  I don't enjoy getting lost, and even that happened a few times on my way through HL2.  I can easily see myself in Ravenholm, spending hours going around and around in circles if there were multiple paths strewn all over the place.  I think variation throughout the game is far more important than nonlinearity, and I cannot agree with you that the environments were repetative. 

[Roanoke]

I still don't know what all the fuss was over HL1....

[CP5670]

Well, we've got a difference of opinion CP, I really don't want nonlinearity in a first person shooter.  I don't enjoy getting lost, and even that happened a few times on my way through HL2.  I can easily see myself in Ravenholm, spending hours going around and around in circles if there were multiple paths strewn all over the place.  I think variation throughout the game is far more important than nonlinearity, and I cannot agree with you that the environments were repetative. 

I think nonlinearity gives levels a more realistic layout and makes the game more immersive (linearity makes the place feel like a predetermined crash course for me), but even if you like linear levels, HL2's levels are quite inferior to many other games of its time. Take the first two Splinter Cell games, for example. Their levels are also very linear, but are exceptionally well detailed. You can tell that the developers put a lot of effort into decorating each and every room, and I find it fun to just spend a few moments examining each room in detail. Valve seems to have spent a lot of time with the cutscene areas (like Kleiner's lab) in HL2 but most of the other rooms look like they were pulled out of an HL1-era game. If you're mainly looking for overall environment variety, try playing Unreal 2 and you'll notice quite a remarkable difference from HL2, with each map having its own unique setting.

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I get the feeling that many people who praise HL2's gameplay are really either just tolerating it for the story or have not played a lot of other FPS/TPS games and don't have very high expectations. HL2's levels may have been acceptable at the time of HL1's release, but I expect rather more out of the games I play now.

[neoterran]

Unreal both looked and played better. The combat mechanics in that game were somewhat different from anything else seen in singleplayer FPSs, either before or after it. The enemies were both fast and strong, so it actually played more like a traditional multiplayer FPS, with strafing and dodging being much more important than in most other singleplayer games. Although to be fair, the story was indeed pretty lousy.

Half Life 2 is the main title that comes to mind.

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Ya see, I preemp ****e like this, cuz I suck horribly  Least you have a point with Unreal looking better and having a unique feel to it

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[MP-Ryan]

See, when I pick up an FPS game I want story.  I thought HL1 was a little too much action and a little too little story.  HL2 I thought managed the balance perfectly.  I'll admit some components in the level design were irritating, but on the whole I thought the game was extremely well done.  In a stroy-driven game, linearity is a must... or at least, in that type of story-driven game where you are essentially playing through a novel.  Take a game like Deus Ex or System Shock 2, however, and you get a little more variability in paths and outcomes (for anyone who hasn't played either of these games, I'd say they're probably my favorite two of all time.  Deus Ex edges in slightly above SS2, but only slightly).

Halo was a great game too - yes, some repetitive levels (God, I HATE the Library), but on the whole the story was excellent.  And really, I'll take a fantastic story with level flaws above a technically well-designed game with no story ANY day.

On those grounds, I'd say HL2, HL1, and Halo were all excellent games.  Especially Half-Life 2.  There's so much in it.  I can understand why some people wouldn't like them, though.

However, if anyone here slams Deus Ex or System Shock I'm going to have to break out the baseball bat. =P

[Scooby_Doo]

I thought it would be the monkey wrench MP-Ryan   

[FlyingBadger]

However, if anyone here slams Deus Ex or System Shock I'm going to have to break out the baseball bat. =P

I just played System Shock II for the first time last year, and I gotta tell ya, even with the ancient graphics that game scared me way more than F.E.A.R. ever did.  At least until I got the skills to use the Assault Rifle and realized I'd saved up about a thousand bullets...then it was slaughtering time.

[Mr. Vega]

However, if anyone here slams Deus Ex or System Shock I'm going to have to break out the baseball bat. =P

Deus Ex was a really good game, but the design was a little crude compared to Thief or SS2. Viva Looking Glass!

[Polpolion]

It's a shame they killed Deus Ex 2.

[CP5670]

In a stroy-driven game, linearity is a must... or at least, in that type of story-driven game where you are essentially playing through a novel.

This is definitely not true. Most of the levels had hardly any story elements to speak of and just involved going through about 20 of these rundown buildings. There was no reason not to have multiple paths and/or side areas available in these levels.

And really, I'll take a fantastic story with level flaws above a technically well-designed game with no story ANY day.

We all have different preferences. I'll take the well designed game every time, as I play FPS games primarily for their gameplay, not their stories. I liked things such as Unreal or Far Cry for just that reason. Of course, it's best to have games like Deus Ex and SS2 (especially DX) that have both an excellent story and the gameplay to match.

[NGTM-1R]

Halo was a great game too - yes, some repetitive levels (God, I HATE the Library), but on the whole the story was excellent.  And really, I'll take a fantastic story with level flaws above a technically well-designed game with no story ANY day.

The Library was actually one of my favorites, because I thought it had excellent level design from a tactical standpoint; there was room to manuver, and actual point to doing so. It was only in that level you could have the feel of fighting off the enemy hordes so well, because of those things. They could afford to throw more enemies at you. I have yet to find a game that replicates that quite so well, though HL2 came close in a couple of places.

[Kosh]

Deus Ex 2


To be fair they put a lot of effort into it (and they even had TV commercials for it), but it just wasn't a good game. The flaws have already been discussed in other threads a while ago, so I won't go into it again. But even standing by itself it was just barely tolerable.


StarControl 3 was overrated and total crap.

[jr2]

Halo was a great game too - yes, some repetitive levels (God, I HATE the Library), but on the whole the story was excellent. 

I agree on all points above ( Library )

[phatosealpha]

Deus Ex 2


To be fair they put a lot of effort into it (and they even had TV commercials for it), but it just wasn't a good game. The flaws have already been discussed in other threads a while ago, so I won't go into it again. But even standing by itself it was just barely tolerable.


StarControl 3 was overrated and total crap.

Out of curiousity, who do you think overrated SC3?  The only people who are even aware of it's existence are SC2 fans, and well...the reception the game gets from us is about the same as athiests got from the spanish inquisition.

[Desert Tyrant]

Deus Ex 2


To be fair they put a lot of effort into it (and they even had TV commercials for it), but it just wasn't a good game. The flaws have already been discussed in other threads a while ago, so I won't go into it again. But even standing by itself it was just barely tolerable.


StarControl 3 was overrated and total crap.

Never played Star Control... Sadly, this is what you get when you are born in 1992