[Mustang19]

Pretty much everything anyone can think of has already been discussed. I'm just curious as to the most popular and legitimate theory out there.

I'm not so sure of Shivan intentions as to have a definite theory to explain the whole FS2 storyline. I am pretty sure of certain of the Shivan's motives. They're trying to cut off the Terrans and Vasudans, if not necesarily kill them. As mentioned in the FS1 ending, the Shivans exist to protect weaker races from being taken over, and isolating the GTVA by forcing it to destroy the nodes to Sol and Capella seems like something the Shivans would do.

The destruction of the Lucifer stopped the first Shivan invasion, but at the same time the Terrans lost contact with the center of their empire, and the Vasudan homeworld had already been blasted. They'd forced the Terrans/Vasudans to cripple themselves. One of those "Shivans work in mysterious" ways things. I suspect that if the Lucifer had made it through then the Shivans would have collapsed the node anyway. Capella was also an attempt to cut off the GTVA. By blasting the two Capella nodes, the GTVA was sealing itself off from the Knossos network in Gamma Draconis. The Shivans didn't mind; their work was done, the GTVA had shut itself off from expansion, and when Capella was about to be sealed off they blew the star. A few Sathanases stayed behind as garrison.

The FS2 tech description of the Shivans tries to make it clear that the Shivans were constructed by someone else. I won't repeat it word-for-word here, but take a few seconds to read it and you'll see what I'm talking about. It's like Petrarch's out-of-the-blue theory that the Shivans blew up Capella to make their way home: a storyline freebie. Anyway, people are pretty critical of the "Shivans are just taking point for a bigger, badder creator species", but I wouldn't be surprised if Volition really was planning to take the easy way out and turn FS3 into a big final battle between the GTVA and the Shivan's creators. In terms of storyline, FS1 and FS2 weren't all that creative in the first place, unless you compare them to rest of the cliched space shooter genre.

The Shivans couldn't or didn't want to handle the GTVA for whatever reason, so they sealed it off, and left to call in the big guns for Freespace: Episode Three. I mean, if the Shivans are really happy, peaceful people just trying to guard their subspace turf, who's going to be the enemy in FS3 after the Shivan's conversation with Bosch? Petrarch gives us the impression that the Shivans have made their peace with us and left for their homeworld, so who are we gonna fight now?

I know this post is too long for most of you, but one more thing. Volition probably doesn't intend it, but it's very likely that the Shivans may have evolved in the nebula. Scientists have talked about the possibility of hydrogen-based life on Saturn and Jupiter, so why not in the nebula? Plenty of different gases and environmental conditions. Few people realize how huge nebulas are- typically 30+ lightyears "wide" in at least one direction. The odds of life originating in a nebula may actually be much higher than life origination on a planet, simply because of the massive area that could potentially create life. All your basic elements- oxygen, carbon, hydrogen- are there, and the massive size makes it likely that there will be at least some areas with the right gas mixtures and temperature for life to evolve. If you absolutely insist that life needs a solid surface to start from, there are plenty of space rocks floating around. So, not saying that this is a serious theory, but The Nebula(TM) could be the Shivan's "homeworld", and the Capella nebula a second home for them.

So, what's your theory?

[IceFire]

I've attempted to do a theory about the Shivans for a long time.  But thats pretty difficult to do because I think we're missing some key pieces of the puzzle.  The pattern doesn't fit yet and we don't know something that is really important.  What I can generally do is poke holes in other theories that don't fit the pre-established pattern but I can't really formulate a theory on my own.

What I can say is the following.  The Shivans are mythological in their interaction with the story so you have to take all of the mythological hints contained within and consider them as an archetype rather than as a hostile species.  I'm sure when they put together the story they realized they wanted a really incredible enemy that defied understanding and thats what they did really well.

Its obvious that the Shivans are motivated in different ways...we know they are drawn to subspace, its possible that they come from subspace or the interaction with subspace.  Its been written that they don't consider planets to be terribly important to their strategic goals (seemingly) when they enter a system.  They control the subspace nodes and ignore the planets unless it suits them (i.e. wiping out the Vasudans by attacking Vasuda Prime).  They certainly don't seem to be very terrestrial.  I think its brilliant that they came up with an enemy that defies so many conventions in terms of the usual space baddie.  I love Wing Commander but the Kilrathi are almost classic...an alien an enemy foe that really isn't so alien (they are large cats) and that really doesn't have a massively different way of doing things.  Its a very conventional war that the Humans and Kilrathi fight in that story but that doesn't work for FreeSpace...except between Terran and Vasudan.

So theories about the Shivans...fun to speculate but I've only seen a few REALLY good theories that even fit without having a whole bunch of holes.  I'd challenge people to keep thinking out of the box...Shivans weren't conventionally written in the first place and even less so in FreeSpace 2.

Just consider that in FreeSpace 2 the Shivans could have taken all of those Sathanas, all 80 of them, and wiped out the GTVA in a week or less.  Travel time would be the biggest hindrance to wiping them out quicker.  Obviously the Shivans were hostile in that they attacked everything and spread out in the system, but they could have easily wiped the floor and finished them off.  They didn't do it. So in FreeSpace 2, their motivations were entirely different than FreeSpace 1.  What those motivations are...not a clue.  The best guess I can do with a theory is that destroying the Capella star altered the various flows of subspace sort of like that scene in Star Trek Generations where the destruction of those stars altered the course of the nexus.  But for what purpose...you got me.  Thats the best guess I have.

[Mustang19]

I'm sure when they put together the story they realized they wanted a really incredible enemy that defied understanding and thats what they did really well.

Which was what made FS1 so creepy and epic. FS2 less so.

So in FreeSpace 2, their motivations were entirely different than FreeSpace 1.

Different motives? You're saying they changed their mind? Doesn't seem like that to me. Like I mentioned in the first post, FS1 and FS2 ended in basically the same way: the Shivans forced the GTVA to blow a subspace node, hindering GTVA expansion. In FS2, especially, the GTVA lost access to the Knossos network (or rather node "leapfrog system") in Gamma Draconis... not to say that they wouldn't find another Knossos lying around somewhere.

An interesting question is, "Where did the Shivans go after Capella?" Some old homeworld, Petrarch says. I feel pretty sure that this is Earth, as ridiculous as that sounds. I mean, where else? Either the GTVA would have to find this "homeworld" for the story to continue, or Earth is the homeworld, and the Terrans return to Sol only to find it infested with Shivans. Sol is the only "unexplored" part of the FreeSpace universe by the end of FS2, so where else is the GTVA going to find the Shivans?

What I can generally do is poke holes in other theories that don't fit the pre-established pattern but I can't really formulate a theory on my own.

Same here. But we haven't discussed everything yet.

[Dark Hunter]

Different motives? You're saying they changed their mind? Doesn't seem like that to me.

It does to me, though. Their strategy was completely different. With all those Saths, they could have overrun GTVA space in a couple of weeks. With the Lucy they just smashed their way through all obstacles until we outsmarted them. With the Sath Fleet... it seemed more like the GTVA was just in the way, and not really their main concern.

[Agent_Koopa]

I don't believe that the Shivans would have collapsed the node if they had wiped out both homeworlds. The collapse of the Sol node was an unfortunate accident (from the Terran point of view, obviously) but was unforeseen  by either party. The Shivans would not have bothered to destroy a race, then destroy the subspace nodes. If it is true that the Shivans are the guardians of subspace, then they would not purposefully destroy a naturally-occuring subspace node, which, we have seen, they are incapable of traversing their likely-massive empire without. I do not think it was even implied that they evolved in the nebula -- rather it was the remains of a Shivan-asploded star, not a naturally created one. Perhaps the Shivans detonated many stars across the galaxy? The Capella nebula could not have been merely a second home, because the escape of about half the Sathanas juggernauts is left unexplained. The supernova wiped out everything in-system, and there was no node that close to the sun. We also know that they could not have left the system without a node, because the first Sathanas is bound to node travel like all other ships. Therefore, the Sathanases simply left to an unknown destination, which their stellicide was either a cover for, or the trigger for.

[StarSlayer]

Well i throw out my stupid idea

Sorta a lame Doomsday Machine Spinoff

Perhaps, the Shivans originally started out as a weapon system of some long dead Empire from before even the Ancients.  They had laid dormant for centuries or perhaps millennia until the Ancients happen to stumble into them.  They became active and following their directive started to purge the Ancients. From the ole FS1 cutscenes the Ancients believed they could forgo one system, it didn't sound as though at that point the Shivans were a galactic spanning empire.  In addition a tailor made Weapon system wouldn't be interested in planets technology ect. just General Order No. 1 Seek Out and Destroy the Enemy.   The Shivans began to build up and exterminatus the Ancients utilizing the Anctient's spinny fish ring portal nodes.  However, being a weapon system they could build warships and fight and take advantage of other's technology but couldn't perhaps operate it themselves.  For this reason a chunk of the Shivan fleet centered around the Lucifer got cut off from the rest of Shivans when they arrived in the Ancient's home galaxy(as a last ditch effort the Ancients pulled the plug on the portal).  Still the fleet that made it through was still enough to cream what remained of the Ancients.  Cut off from the rest of the Shivans and with no one to fight the "Lucy Fleet" went dormant until they noticed the Terrans and Vasudans.  Reactivated they went on another purge crusade that was halted because of Alpha One's dogfighting prowess.  Meanwhile the rest of the Shivans in the universe had continued to evolve and expand, until they became something 'more' then a weapons system.  Still perhaps limited in their ability to understand other's technology and create culture, but able to see beyond their original specifications.   Therefore they were interested in finding their origins in a quest to further themselves.   Like Petratch speculated the Shivans blew up Capella in a search for home and culture, the GTVA were some annoying gnats they needed to swat to get there.  I think this idea while unimaginative, does fit with the fact that the Shivans in FS1 and FS2 had seemingly different objectives and why the GTVA had a 32 year reprieve.

[BlueFlames]

I don't try to come up with any theories about the hard facts about the Shivans, as most of it is pretty irrelevant.  They've demonstrated that they occupy space surrounding the entire chunk of the galaxy that the GTVA has explored.  Homeworlds don't make a whole hell of a lot of difference when your civilization spans that much space.  Trying to analyze their motives is pretty pointless because whatever they're trying to do, it seems to involve mass-slaughter of Terrans and Vasudans.  Apparently that's easier than talking to either species to get one, the other, or both to aid them in their endeavors.  Whatever the end-goal is, the GTVA is gone and its members dead by the time those goals are met.

Really, the most speculation I do with regards to anything Shivan in the physical sense is how the GTVA will try to stop them and what the Shivans will do to overcome the alliance's defenses.  At the end of FreeSpace 2, I could see the GTVA engaging in a campaign of isolation, collapsing every jump node to uncharted space into which they can shove a meson bomb.  The obvious shortfalls are that it's not yet known whether or not such an explosion destabilizes enough to prevent the Shivans from using such jump nodes, and there's plenty of jump nodes in the systems "below" Delta Serpentis (on the Volition node map) that the GTVA has not mapped out.

Metaphysically, it's pretty easy to go wild with the Shivans, since they're so enigmatic.  Allow me to explain in the form of a faux-Bosch monologue....

A millenium ago, humanity had tamed its homeworld.  As a species, we then set ourselves upon the stars, intending to conquer them.  With the discovery of subspace and a complete lack of resistance in the early days of interstellar exploration, we fully expected the galaxy to fall before us.  The discovery of the Vasudans gave us a worthy, but by no means undefeatable foe.  Regardless of the truth, terrans fully believed that with enough time, they could wipe out the Vasudan scourge and continue to take the galaxy.  The Ancients suffered a similar hubris.  It is difficult to blame them.  We have no evidence to suggest that they had their own version of the Vasudans to attempt to temper their collective ego.  For the Terrans and Ancients alike, the whole of the universe was a vine bearing ripe fruit, waiting to be picked.

And then the Shivans arrived.  Some claim that subspace spawned the Shivans.  Subspace, to the layman, is as mysterious as the Shivans, so it is natural that they wish to simplify their world by rolling two mysteries into one.  In fact, this overlooks the obvious.  Subspace did not spawn the Shivans; humanity did.  They appear, slay (or at the very least humble) a species, and then vanish.  They feed on our arrogance.  They seek and consume it, and when there is none left, we "defeat" the Shivans and don't see them again, until we regain that adolescent feeling of invulnerability....

....or we suffer the same fate as the Ancients.  I suppose the real mystery is why we are allowed to survive, while the Ancients were hunted to extinction.

[jr2]

Hmm, you know, on the whole "canon" issue: when speaking with regard to the Ancients, you have to be careful.  Just because it was in a cutscene as the Ancient's opinion doesn't mean it is true.  Fore example:
The Ancients state that the Shivans were "Protectors"... um 'scuse me, they just barely figure out the Shivan's shield vulnerability, but they know all about the Shivan motives?  I think it more likely that the Ancients are a little superstitious, sort of like some Vasudans... in fact, IMHO, the Ancients and Vasudans may perhaps be related... I'll have to do some research (ha! when I get around to it) and post more details.

[Wobble73]

Hmm, you know, on the whole "canon" issue: when speaking with regard to the Ancients, you have to be careful.  Just because it was in a cutscene as the Ancient's opinion doesn't mean it is true.  Fore example:
The Ancients state that the Shivans were "Protectors"... um 'scuse me, they just barely figure out the Shivan's shield vulnerability, but they know all about the Shivan motives?  I think it more likely that the Ancients are a little superstitious, sort of like some Vasudans... in fact, IMHO, the Ancients and Vasudans may perhaps be related... I'll have to do some research (ha! when I get around to it) and post more details.

It has been speculated before that the Vasudans were one of the Ancients subject races, in that way they would be related.

[Colonol Dekker]

utilizing the Anctient's spinny fish ring portal nodes. 

I agree, The shivans were an aincent weapon system "a'la skynet" which rebelled or was created to seek out all subspace capable peeps and mega-smite them.

[Mustang19]

The Wiki page for the Ancients lists many similarities between Vasudans and Ancients. Someone realized that a long time ago.

As for the "Ancient's opinion" issue, I consider all those random statements, like Bosch's claim that the Shivans evolved from subspace, to be "storyline freebies" rather than mere speculation of that character. I believe that Shivans are a hive-mind and are a semi-biological semi-machine race, as the FS2 tech description implies.

[IceFire]

Different motives? You're saying they changed their mind? Doesn't seem like that to me. Like I mentioned in the first post, FS1 and FS2 ended in basically the same way: the Shivans forced the GTVA to blow a subspace node, hindering GTVA expansion. In FS2, especially, the GTVA lost access to the Knossos network (or rather node "leapfrog system") in Gamma Draconis... not to say that they wouldn't find another Knossos lying around somewhere.

Precisely what I'm saying.

In FreeSpace 1 the Shivans attack the Terrans and Vasudans, actively hunt their ships across many systems, and send the Lucifer out to eradicate both homeworlds as well as major fleet installations and so forth.  The Shivans in FreeSpace 2 don't even leave the nebula in any serious manner until the Sathanas comes through.  And then...they seemingly invade and then instead of blasting through the GTVA defenses they don't even try for the other systems.  Sure they were completely ruthlessly hostile but that seems to be their MO on the whole so I'd consider that secondary. Everything in Capella was attacked and blasted away but their drive was not to try and finish off Earth or the Terrans and Vasudans or anything like that.  Not seemingly so.  They could have.  80 Sathanas would not have been stopped.

[Roanoke]

It seems likely to me that V didn't invest a great deal of time on the storyline untill FS2. Therefore it's unlikely there would be any plauseable continuation between FS1 and the sequel.
I'd guess the storyline was greatly expanded upon after they started FS2.

It's like when people try to explain the FS2 shivans having beams and the FS1 Shivans not having them. It seems obvious to me that rsulted from outside infulences (in the case of beams, they technology V had to work with). That's why V never bothered to explain the differences in FS2.

[Snail]

Copied+Pasted From SG.

Shivan Theory

First things first, the Shivans are a hivemind (stereotypical excuse for Shivan single mindedness).

My theory involves a 'cataclysm' which separated the Shivan fleets a long time ago (probably the destruction of several Jump Nodes simultaneously). After the cataclysm, the Shivans decided to nuke all other species because they did not want another cataclysm or something. Fortunately, the Shivans had 'backup hives' which come into motion when a fleet (or fleets) get separated from DaBrain.

The Shivans that came from Ross 128 and attacked the Terrans and Vasudans in FS1 were from a different fleet from the one in FS2. They were probably an expeditionary force which got lost after the disaster that separated the Shivans. Their fleet was very small so they decided that they had to create a sub-hive on board the Lucifer. This is why they needed to shield it and protect it so much.

It is to be noted that they are ultimately the exact same Shivans as the Shivans in FS2, they were just separated for a long time (who said that they hated these theories which say the Shivans are different? Mefustae?).

The Sathanes in FS2 were part of a larger fleet, perhaps one of the biggest Shivan fleets separated from the main one. Because the FS2 Shivans had such a large fleet already, they did not need to shield their capital ships like the Lucifer. The Comm Nodes in the second SOC loop were being used to try to communicate other Shivan fleets far away so the FS2 Shivans could join back up with them. The supernova of Capella was used as the gravitational field for the use of a super-jump node so that the FS2 Shivans could join up with some other Shivan fleet (alternatively it could be used as a beacon so the other Shivan fleets could find it, but it seems a stretch that the Shivans would blow up a star just for a signal).

This does not rule out another species the Shivans are at war with, perhaps those who caused the 'cataclysm' in the first place by using a type of super weapon to weaken the Shivans into individual fleets. Or something. Blegh.

Lucifer Shield Theory

My personal theory about beams piercing 'sheath' shields is that the sheath shield is basically an extremely strong shield that regenerates extremely quickly, and only a constant barrage of fire can pierce this shield. The damage needed is probably many, many Harbinger bombs exploding on the Lucifer all at once for about a minute constantly without break. Even a pause for a second or two will allow the shield to recharge to half or even full strength. All damage must be constant, with damage being delivered every split second.

The only way this could be done in the FS universe devised is the use of beam weapons. Beam weapons deliver a whole load of damage constantly for as long as the beam is fired at the targeted ship (in this case a Lucifer class destroyer). The beam will be able to pierce the shield after only a few seconds on the shield. Because the beam is always firing upon the shield, the Lucifer does not have enough time to recharge its shield. Thus, the beam will burst through, vomiting all its plasma on the Lucifer.

Addition to Shivan Theory

The Shivans were at war with 'some other species'. The war was based on fighting for subspace, to control subspace. Whoever controlled the most subspace nodes would win the war. The war stretched on for many hundreds of thousands of years and spanned many galaxies. The 'other species' decided that the war had gone on for long enough and decided in the end to create some 'Gravity Devices.' The Gravity Devices were used to destroy subspace nodes by using some kind of gravity disruption thingy. This makes larger subspace warps impossible because the gravity disrupts the 'base' energy that is needed for a successful inter-system jump. The gravity would probably crush things anyway. The Gravity Devices have their own defensive systems, so were mainly unstoppable.

The Shivans, spread across several galaxies, were unable to do much when the Gravity Devices reached the main nodes. The Shivans were utilizing the Sathanes fleet's ability to create supernodes on suns to traverse the galaxies. The Gravity Devices were created by 'the other species' to reverse the process of the supernodes. The Gravity Devices reached the main supernodes. After this, there was a big battle and the Shivans were able to destroy some of the devices. However, the 'other species' deactivated the devices for use later. But before they could reactivate them, they got blown up by one of the Shivan fleets.

The Shivans now had two objectives: to find each other, and to find and destroy all the Gravity Devices.

[jr2]

It seems likely to me that V didn't invest a great deal of time on the storyline untill FS2. Therefore it's unlikely there would be any plauseable continuation between FS1 and the sequel.
It's like when people try to explain the FS2 shivans having beams and the FS1 Shivans not having them. It seems obvious to me that rsulted from outside infulences (in the case of beams, they technology V had to work with). That's why V never bothered to explain the differences in FS2.

Hehe, have you ever played through FS1?

Specifically, I was wondering whether or not you'd seen this shot:
(BTW, those beams are pretty good looking... now, if they'd just move a faster...)

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Snail]

The Lucy only had them. No other ship did.

[jr2]

True enough.  IDK why they didn't just tweak the values for the beam a little and put them on more ships.  (duration longer, length longer, damage per second lower, speed higher).

[Snail]

Maybe they originally wanted the Lucy to be the only ship carrying beam weapons, but then in FS2 they thought it was cooler with all ships with beam cannons.

[jr2]

Well, along with the sheath shields, it does give the Lucy the effect.

[Maxwell]

I've often wondered if the FS writers had a long run goal in mind with the story, or took a "make it up as we go along" approach.
Then again I wondered the same thing for halo.

It seems to me that the Shivans were meant to be very old and (from the looks of things) very well spread out, but they have no interest in surface worlds aside from destroying sub-space fairing races. They are inadvertently the keepers of the garden that protected both of our races... to a point.

My silly question would be: are the first shivans we meet directly related to the second ones?
...Or did we run across some kind of fanciful land mine they left behind long ago, then suddenly trip over the real deal.