Author Topic: The neighbrohood has gone to the dogs  (Read 14898 times)

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Offline Nuclear1

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Re: The neighbrohood has gone to the dogs
I'm not bashing the USA, i just gave an instance of when being of possesion of a gun was very handy. In fact it helped quite a bit i'd imagine. Not only does the above reference backup the counter statement but it shows an example of america being genuinely victorious.


I dont know why everythings htting the fan  :doubt:

Read through Black Wolf's and Mefustae's posts, and you'll get what me and Swantz are on about.
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

 

Offline achtung

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Re: The neighbrohood has gone to the dogs
Yeah, it's not you Dekker.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: The neighbrohood has gone to the dogs
*/end obscene post intended to get this stupid ****ing thread locked before it turns into ALL MERKINS ARE DUMB****S!!!!1 like so many threads do.  And Rictor hasn't even shown up yet!

Or I can simply delete your entire response forcing you to retype it all without insulting the British. :p

Black Wolf. Calm down and stop insulting the whole of America for the stupidity of some of their people.
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Offline Nuclear1

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Re: The neighbrohood has gone to the dogs
*/end obscene post intended to get this stupid ****ing thread locked before it turns into ALL MERKINS ARE DUMB****S!!!!1 like so many threads do.  And Rictor hasn't even shown up yet!

Or I can simply delete your entire response forcing you to retype it all without insulting the British. :p
Oh, you. :p  Methinks karajorma's going a wee bit senile in his old age? :D
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: The neighbrohood has gone to the dogs
Not senile at all. You called the British a name earlier on in your rant.

So I removed the entire inflammatory post and told Black Wolf to calm down. I'd rather not lock the topic if people can keep level heads.
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Offline Nuclear1

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Re: The neighbrohood has gone to the dogs
Not senile at all. You called the British a name earlier on in your rant.

So I removed the entire inflammatory post and told Black Wolf to calm down.
Well, could you at least have just either edited out the offensive parts in both posts, or deleted Black Wolf's too?  It's kinda one-sided now.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2007, 12:16:54 pm by nuclear1 »
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

 

Offline Rico

Re: The neighbrohood has gone to the dogs
Black Wolf. Calm down and stop insulting the whole of America for the stupidity of some of their people.
Yer, your making us Aussies look bad  :drevil:.

Seriously tho, Australia has a diverse culture also, however we don't have nearly as much of a culture tension as America does, perhaps Americans should try to learn this. (This is not designed as a payout, but as friendly advice  :nod:).

 

Offline Nuclear1

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Re: The neighbrohood has gone to the dogs
*sigh* Here we go again.  Just going to sum it up this time:

1)  The United States is very ethnically diverse.  82% white, 13% black, and about 4% Asian.  Australia and the UK aren't.  (92% and 97% White respectively).  Ethnic violence and tension are ingrained in American culture in part through gangster rap and the history of slavery, segregation, and myths about the government purposely "putting the black man down" in the inner city.

2)  Gun control doesn't work in the US.  Ref:  D.C., 1975.  Passes Firearms Control Regulations Act of 1975 to stem the tide of rising violent crime, doesn't work.  Those that want to commit violent crime go to Pennsylvania, Virginia, or other states with lax gun control and get guns to commit crimes with in D.C. (See this for reference).  Fortunately, the ridiculous law is declared unconstitutional in Parker v. District of Columbia (March of 2007).  That, and a state of emergency declared in 2005 after gun violence was at nightmarish proportions reduced gun violence in the capital.

3)  Trying to solve American gun violence issues with Australian and British policies just doesn't work.  Apples and oranges.  British and Australian citizens were never granted written rights to guns as the US Constitution provides.  Concealed carry laws, such as those passed in Texas post-Luby Massacre of 1991, have shown to reduce gun-related crime.  If you have a gun and a mugger knows you do, you're less likely to get mugged.  Those who carry licenses are much less likely to commit a violent crime than those who don't hold a license.  Texans who want licenses have to go through month-long background checks, a long written exam, and a marksmanship course to ensure competent and responsible gun ownership.

4)  Everything that Swantz said. 

5)  It really gets old having the "more civilized" countries in Western Europe and Australia try to tell Americans how their country should be run.

There.

And just in case kara's finger slips again, I copy/pasted this one.  Fool me twice... :p
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: The neighbrohood has gone to the dogs
Well, could you at least have just either edited out the offensive parts in both posts, or deleted Black Wolf's too?  It's kinda one-sided now.

You got "edited" due to the ulterior motive you mentioned more than anything else. :P
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Offline Black Wolf

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Re: The neighbrohood has gone to the dogs
Black Wolf. Calm down and stop insulting the whole of America for the stupidity of some of their people.

Maybe I overreacted a touch. But this issue annoys me. Sure, it's their country, they can screw it up all they want. But they just act so stupid about the whole issue. And not just a small minority - a very, very large minority or more likely the majority since gun control has never gotten in - act as if guns should be accepted as a normal and neccesary part of life. They aren't. And yes, once again, I know it's their country. But attitudes like that just rile me up - it's the same with creationism and a bunch of other stuff. Willful ignorance. It annoys me.

The only comments on the thread that seem to be of relevance to my stuff:

DC's gun control laws.
Well, your own reasoning shows why this is ineffective - states over there are the size of... well, small big things. They're easy to drive a across, particularly one as small as DC. So of course state based regulations aren't going to work. Change like this needs to be inititated at a Federal level.


International gun trade:

Yes, internationally traded guns would get into America. But they'd also get into Australia and Britain. So we're islands. Australia has one of the largest coastlines of any nation in the world. To the north we have essentially lawless regions of South East Asia, plus we also have drug smuggling problems here, ergo there're entryways. And I'm sure they get in. But in much, much reduced numbers than they would have if they were still being legally imported.

The US has land based international borders. If drugs can get in, guns can get in, granted, but on average, one hit of heroin is considerably smaller than one hit of gun. For that matter, AFAIK, a large chunk of the drugs entering the US come via boat into places like Florida, or, in the case of Marijuana, across he Canadian border, which, when you discount the US border, is also effectively an "island". With their tight gun control laws, you'd be fairly hard pressed to get guns in across in any significant numbers that way. So you're left with limited numbers of guns coming in across the mexican border and by boat/plane/helicopter/whatever from the caribbean and latin/south america in much the same way as cocaine gets in./ Except you'd need ten to one hundred times the volume to make the same profits for the smuggler. So what do they do? Jack the prices up.

This is where the guns/drugs smuggling equivalence gets interesting. One of America's big problem with guns, particularly handguns, stems from inner city/gang violence. So, let's look at what happened with the inner city if the drug smuggling analogy is accurate:

In the seventies and early eighties, the only people who could afford cocaine were the rich. Why? Because, while it wasn't all that expensive to produce, it was extremely risky to get it into the US, since it all had to come through more or less the same trafficking regions (Miami, in this case), which kept supplies low and prices high.

In an illegal gun situation, the same would be true, though in this case, while the entry points might be more spread out, the risk woulds till be immense because of the scale required. It's no good smuggling ten or twenty handguns into the US - you need to bring in hundreds at a time, and shipments that big get caught a lot. So supplies get driven down, and costs up. Thus, illicit handgun availability becomes limited to the rich, those that can afford it, and they get in in limited numbers.

So, let's continue with the analogy. The cocaine importers eventually got pretty good at getting their product into the US - so good, infact, that they ended up with a glut in Miami. The result? Prices plummeted, availability soared, and cocaine spread (as crack) through to the inner city and sparked off the crack epidemic of the late eighties.

The gun situation as it is now is identical. A glut of unregistered handguns being stolen from registered owners are getting onto the streets at very low prices, keeping availabilty amazingly high. That's why Guns are dangerous in America - not only do all the people who have to pass all the licensing checks and written test and marksmanship program have them, but so to do all the dropkick gang members who buy the guns that were stolen from those fine upstanding citizens for twenty bucks on a street corner.

Granted, the analogy's not perfect, largely as you'd both need to eliminate a huge stock of existing guns and the fact that drugs are a single use resource which requires a regular supply, whereas once you have a gun, you're pretty much right, but the ideas of supply, criminal risk and the filter down dynamics of the illicit economy are pretty much spot on I think.

The rest is mostly rubbish:

Australian and British policies not applying to America. Bull****. Australia and Canada both have strong gun hunting cultures - not quite so much here as in Canada and the US, but still, it's there. And claiming that the right to bear arms makes a difference, well, maybe it does, but that doesn't mean that all guns should be available to all people all the time, particularly since the text of your second ammendment makes reference to well regulated militias which simply do not exist under the current gun culture.

As for racial demographics, I'm not sure what you're saying here. Either racial diversity leads to more violent crime, in which case guns should be extracted from the equation wherever possible, or the threat of racially related violence is still strong enough that you feel you need guns to protect yourselves from otehr races, in which case you've got much bigger problems than guns.

And, if you're pissed about more civilized countries telling you how to run yours, well boohoo. If one guy calls you a dickhead, ignore him. If two guys call you a dickhead, start to wonder. If everyone calls you a dickhead, start wearing a condom instead of a raincoat, because you're probably a dickhead. Same with this. Everyone tells you you're doing something wrong because... you're doing it wrong!
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Offline AlphaOne

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Re: The neighbrohood has gone to the dogs
Well the right to have and use guns should be banned and removed. If no one other then the police and apropriate gouvernment officials and structures would have guns it would be a hell of a lot harder for people to use guns to kill plunder houses etc.


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Offline Polpolion

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Re: The neighbrohood has gone to the dogs
I'm glad I live in a good enough neigboorhood to not have to care about guns until I'm 18.

But anyway, if guns were banned in the US, I have a feeling things would head the same general direction that they did with prohibition.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: The neighbrohood has gone to the dogs
Except that you can't make guns in your bathtub.
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Offline achtung

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Re: The neighbrohood has gone to the dogs
Except that you can't make guns in your bathtub.

We've got lots of gunsmiths.  :p
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Offline Polpolion

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Re: The neighbrohood has gone to the dogs
By what I said, I meant the corruption and law breaking (you know how spite works). And I'm sure that people could find a way to illigally produce some sort of crude firearm.
You know what? You win.

And actually, you could make guns in your bathtub. It would just be very much easier to do so in a factory.

*imagines someone putting a gun together while taking a bath
« Last Edit: June 12, 2007, 03:32:18 pm by thesizzler »

 

Offline Roanoke

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Re: The neighbrohood has gone to the dogs

2)  Gun control doesn't work in the US.  Ref:  D.C., 1975.  Passes Firearms Control Regulations Act of 1975 to stem the tide of rising violent crime, doesn't work.  Those that want to commit violent crime go to Pennsylvania, Virginia, or other states with lax gun control and get guns to commit crimes with in D.C. (See this for reference).  Fortunately, the ridiculous law is declared unconstitutional in Parker v. District of Columbia (March of 2007).  That, and a state of emergency declared in 2005 after gun violence was at nightmarish proportions reduced gun violence in the capital.

And just in case kara's finger slips again, I copy/pasted this one.  Fool me twice... :p

plainly, it didn't work because it was completley undermined....

 

Offline achtung

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Re: The neighbrohood has gone to the dogs
More proof it wouldn't work....


I'd bury my guns.  :p
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Offline karajorma

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Re: The neighbrohood has gone to the dogs
And then be arrested when you dug them up.
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Offline Nuclear1

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Re: The neighbrohood has gone to the dogs
Guns aren't the problem in the inner city.  Gangs are the problem in the inner city.  Gangster rap and incompetent black leaders (not mentioning any Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson names) who are more interested in blasting white people (Don Imus) than solving their own race's problems are the problems in the inner city.  Guns are the instruments that they use to commit most of their violent acts, but just because there's violence there, should we instantly ban the law-abiding citizens from having the ability to defend themselves?

Quote
Australian and British policies not applying to America. Bull****. Australia and Canada both have strong gun hunting cultures - not quite so much here as in Canada and the US, but still, it's there. And claiming that the right to bear arms makes a difference, well, maybe it does, but that doesn't mean that all guns should be available to all people all the time, particularly since the text of your second ammendment makes reference to well regulated militias which simply do not exist under the current gun culture.
No, the policies are 100% different.

Despite the gun hunting cultures, American politics and history with guns are totally different than British and Australian histories with guns.  Just look at American history and you can understand why there was a need for the average person to armed with a handgun or rifle:  the lawless West, Natives, the Revolution, War of 1812... While times have changed, the needs haven't.  There's still violent crime, and still a need for the average citizen to be protected against it.  AFAIK, gangs and organized crime don't play nearly as high a role in Britain or Australia as they do in the US; again, I reference heterogeneity.  Neighborhoods divided among Italians, Asians, and other minorities are the reason people need to defend themselves in the big cities.

See?  American, British, and Australian histories are just too different to say "ok everybody drop your guns and let's fix this problem."  To do that you'd have to do any of the following:
1)  Fix the problem with heterogeneity.
2)  Come ridiculously close to equality of condition for those in the inner city.
3)  Ban guns outright.
4)  Entirely close every border.

1 doesn't work for obvious reasons.  You'd have to massively deport every minority in the country, commit genocide to get rid of them, or, over a very long period, breed them out.  That's unplausible.
2 doesn't work because equality of condition is just impossible.  Social Security is buggy; health care is far too expensive, and other social welfare programs are often cheated, corrupt, or ineffective.  See:  Social Security.
3 won't work because those who really want to commit a crime with a handgun will get them.  
4 is impossible because you'd need every mile of border, land, sea, and air sealed off.  Unless you want to build a forcefield to keep them out, that's just plain impossible.

So really, the only thing we can do to stop violence in the inner city is to promote better education and somewhat better conditions (not equal conditions, that's not possible).  What needs to be done is fix the social ills, not increase bans.  So yes, I agree with you, we do have bigger problems than guns.  So let's focus on those problems while in the meantime give our people ways to protect themselves.  

Quote
And, if you're pissed about more civilized countries telling you how to run yours, well boohoo. If one guy calls you a dickhead, ignore him. If two guys call you a dickhead, start to wonder. If everyone calls you a dickhead, start wearing a condom instead of a raincoat, because you're probably a dickhead. Same with this. Everyone tells you you're doing something wrong because... you're doing it wrong!
Really?  And who the hell are you to say what's right and what's not?  I'll say it again:  What's right for Australia and Europe aren't always what's right for the US.  Different countries, different histories, different cultures.  That's the exact reason there's failure in Iraq, why democracies don't flourish anywhere else in the world.

And please, please don't act like Western Europe and Australia are by any stretch of the imagination the bastions of enlightenment in the world... because, honestly, they're no better than the US.
Well the right to have and use guns should be banned and removed. If no one other then the police and apropriate gouvernment officials and structures would have guns it would be a hell of a lot harder for people to use guns to kill plunder houses etc.

And the government should always be trusted to do the right thing.  We can't cite a single moment throughout history where governments have repressed people who have had no ready access to something that gives them the ability to fight back. :rolleyes:
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

  

Offline Shade

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Re: The neighbrohood has gone to the dogs
Quote
Guns are the instruments that they use to commit most of their violent acts, but just because there's violence there, should we instantly ban the law-abiding citizens from having the ability to defend themselves?
Now, this has always irked me. How do you defend yourself with a gun, against another gun-wielder? How? It seems to me that the only way to "defend" yourself is to pull your gun first, aim first, and shoot first. Which, by definition, is not defending. If the other guy already has a gun trained on you, and you try to pull yours, you're simply making 100% sure that you die instead of simply losing your wallet.

In fact, the only way guns can be used for defense, assuming you don't carry it in-hand, aimed and ready to shoot at anyone who comes within 15 metres of you at all times (something which I think certain people with uniforms and badges might take offense at), is if you assume that your attacker is such a lousy shot that he will miss with his first, aimed, shot while you're good enough to hit the mark with your first, panicked, from-the-hip snap shot. And James Bond movies depite, that just does not happen.
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