[karajorma]

How do you know that?
If there were only 3 of them in the house, and one is dead, that only leaves the old guy and the second burglar.
So you'd practicly condenm the old man based on the burglars testimony?

Oh?

It's pretty hard to claim self defence when shooting two people (one of them in the back) as they tried to climb out of the window to get away.

Oh and before you get all sentimental about Tony Martin lets remember that this man is a supporter of the neo-nazi BNP party, shot the burglars with an illegal shotgun and was himself arrested in 2004 for theft.

[Nuclear1]

The point here was that he wasn't defending his home and family. He could easily not have opened fire, but chose to instead, killing a 16-year-old. You would kill a defenceless person because they tried to take your stuff? They tried to take your posessions, so you have to take their life? A human life is a human life, no matter how it is used. Avoid death wherever possible, and maybe the world would be a better place. The burglar may not be innocent, but they do not forfeit their right to life.

IIRC, John Locke said that every human being has a right to "life, liberty, and property."  Frederic Bastiat said not too long after that you have "a natural right to defend your person, your liberty, and your property."  The kid was on the man's premises, violating his rights to property.  Now, unless you can prove that he was coerced into being there by his adult partner, then he just as much forfeited his right to life by violating someone else's right to property.

Of course, that's just what the defense would argue.  I in no way condone what he did, as it was excessive force and unnecessary, given that the two were already fleeing when he brought out the shotgun.

Oh and before you get all sentimental about Tony Martin lets remember that this man is a supporter of the neo-nazi BNP party, shot the burglars with an illegal shotgun and was himself arrested in 2004 for theft.

Oh wow.

You know, even a half-assed defense lawyer would've put in a motion to exclude all of that nonsense in a heartbeat based on the fact that it serves no legitimate purpose other than to inflame emotion and violate a man's right to free association.  The only thing prosecution can do with any of that is use the theft charge to establish a pattern of behavior.  So tell me, if I were a member of the Klan, does that somehow make me more guilty in a murder situation than someone who wasn't?

So I don't know exactly what you're doing by bringing this up, but please, stop the demonizing.  Poor character or not, the man deserves every single right to defend himself and his property, and be fairly represented in court without that tosh being thrown in as an accusation.

[karajorma]

I'm not demonising. None of that stuff has anything to do with the court case and I never said it did.

However AFTER the court case Tony Martin has been portrayed by the media (and by Trashman's post) as some poor old man who should be regarded as a hero by the masses and believed over anything the burglars might have to say. I always think it's important that people realise who this guy is before they climb onto the "poor Tony Martin" bandwagon.

Tony Martin was convicted by a jury of his peers, on the evidence presented before them. They were given the option of returning a manslaughter verdict and instead deliberately decided to ignore that and charge him with murder. That is what matters. Not this constant campaign by some members of the media to portray him as your everyman protecting his home. The fact that he shot the burglars in the back as they tried to run away is rarely mentioned.

The man was found guilty of a crime. There was no miscarriage of justice here. Move on.

[Colonol Dekker]

I agree, could be worse, could be on big brother 26 or whatever it is 

[karajorma]

I tend to feel that Big Brother would be greatly improved by the introduction of illegal shotguns.

At the very least it wouldn't drag on quite as long as it currently does.

[Nico]

Who needs guns anyway? I've been in Southampton for 9 months now, and we've got 4 or 5 murders and one gang rape less than a mile from my place, and none of them involved guns - knives are good enough, and obviously more fun. All of them (excepted one) were perpetrated by kids under 16, though. THAT frightens me more than guns. Mmh, actually, there's worse than that: the very same kids with parents who have guns...
Anyway, my point is: lol at whoever who said earlier that a 16 year old kid was defenseless.

[Flipside]

Are you living near the docks? Southampton Docks used to have a bit of a nasty reputation, looks like it hasn't changed much.

[karajorma]

Probably safer for him than those in Hartlepool. You just know that they're looking for a French guy to live down that whole monkey thing.

[Nico]

Are you living near the docks? Southampton Docks used to have a bit of a nasty reputation, looks like it hasn't changed much.

Nah, Burgess rd (near the uni). The "flower" district is one nasty bit of place, with many (mostly teenage) people displaying openly their hatred for the "rich" uni studients (some are rich indeed, obviously, but they seem to fail to understand that mosts are ass-deep in loans or, for the foreign students such as myself, we just pay... nothing, basically - and thanks pete, because 3000 quids a year, ouch >< ). Anyway, I'm out of there, uni's over, and I'm just coming back there in three weeks to have a quick tour of england with my g/f, then back one last day at soton to pack up my things and then kiss my ass goodbye, craphole.