[sixlaneve]

LOL... we'd remake the entire campaign, like Colony Wars!

[Black Wolf]

Heh. The entire Freespace story is just some Shivans newbie campaign.

Shivan one "I've got this cool new ship. It's three kilometers long, it's got Two beam cannons, and it can destroy planets and its invincible because it has super shielding!"

Shivan Two "Oh yeah? Well I've got an even cooler ship! It's Six kilometers long and it has four beam cannons and it can destroy Stars. And I have eighty of them!"

Shivan one "Hey! No Fair!"

[Bob-san]

You ever wonder why the Shivans have so many ships? Maybe THEY have Fred2.

And THEY DON'T have the logistical problems of supplying eighty Juggernaut-class ships!

[Ghostavo]

You ever wonder why the Shivans have so many ships? Maybe THEY have Fred2.

And THEY DON'T have the logistical problems of supplying eighty Juggernaut-class ships!

That you know of...

[Snail]

Well the Shivans have Freighters.

[Bob-san]

I don't remember any post-Sathanas Numero Uno. They're probably there and it's just sketchy memory--I don't remember stuff like that all too well.

[Kie99]

I don't remember any post-Sathanas Numero Uno. They're probably there and it's just sketchy memory--I don't remember stuff like that all too well.

There're a few in Their Finest Hour, right at the start.

[Game_Master64]

something i've never thought about. if the shivans managed to build 80 Sathas, imagine the emense size of their ship-building operations.

[Mobius]

1) The Shivans are old, damn old. The Sathanas that attacked Capella might be 9,000 years old. It doesn't mean that the Shivans have incredible ship-building facilities...they simply are an ancient species;

2) 80 Sathanas that arrived in no time. Try to imagine how big the WHOLE Shivan fleet is!

[AlphaOne]

On the other hand those sathany could be the bulk of theyr fleet! Remember they are just old not invincible.

sure they have a fleet 10 or 20 times larger then the entire GTVA fleet! this is exclueding the Sathany!


The point is the GTVA could match and even beat anything the shivans would throw at them if they had the time! But when you get youre whole damn fleet and at least one major solar sistem blown to bits every 30 or so years it's kinda heard to even ttry to put up a fight!

[Mobius]

The GTVA is primitive, it will never be able to face the true Shivan power. But of course, FreeSpace is a game...and in a game, you must have a chance of victory

[AlphaOne]

well go figure genious! We are talking about what about the shivans who were around 8000 years ago to whipe out the ancients who were already a few thousand years in space soo how the hell can you even compare the 2 of them from this POV! The GTVA is not even worth mentioning from a time POV!

However when you think about the fact that they managed to equal and beat the shivans in terms of ship designs (smaller ones not the sathany) i mean its well kinda something dont you think???


Sure head on the shivans win each time when it comes to beam firepower but then again once you apply good tactics and use the superior fighter/bommber tactics of the GTVA and its superior aaaf defences the shivans kinda get they asses beat! Theyr main advantage is not in theyr uber beams but rather in their huge numbers!


Just give the GTVA time and well i can bet that the shivans will have a very hard time to crush or maul the GTVA like they did before!

[Snail]

There's no way the GTVA can beat the Shivans if you're trying to take a "realistic" approach on your campaign (or just your point of view). But if you're trying to make your campaign really cool with a sense of victory, you always have the GTVA build 20 GTBS Archangel class ships in 2 years and have them defeat the Shivans. Again.

The Shivans have superior ships and weapons, but they just decide to throw everything at the GTVA mindlessly. Why? They don't care. They have 10000 destroyers, who cares if the SD Nebiros and the SD Beast go down? But the GTVA, they have something to worry about. They probably have about 20-30 destroyers, so if the GTD Messana and the GTD Aeneas go down, then it's a big loss for them. The GTVA have better tactics and win some of the battles, but there's NO WAY they can win the war against a species that has been wiping out entire civilizations for more than 8,000 years. In addition, if the Shivans were Derek smart enough (or cared enough for that matter) to cut their losses, they would use better tactics, and beat the GTVA's asses. But they aren't smart enough (or don't care enough) to do that so they just sacrifice thirty bomber wings but eventually, they will win the battle against an exhausted enemy battlegroup.

The GTVA CAN NOT beat the Shivans. Why? The Shivans have 80 ****ing Sathanes, what's to say they don't have more? Or something bigger? The GTVA are two species which have been spacefaring for at the most 100 years. The Shivans have been spacefaring and have seen combat in space for 8,000 frakking years. The Shivans might have a bit of a hard time defeating the GTVA, yes, the GTVA will put up one helluva fight before goin' down. But the Shivans will ultimately win, there's no other conclusion that is realistically possible.

[TrashMan]

Given that the battles in FS2 universe resemble the trench war (sicne nodes are the onyl way in or out of a system) I'd say the GTVA culd put one HELL of a fight.

Yeah, the Sathanas broke trough that GTVA blockade unscratched, which realisticly ins't possbile. Hell try a FRED a mission with 4 destroyers + support craft blockading a node and let a Sathanas in. Chances are they will destroy him or damage it heavily.

Now throw a whole fgiggin fleet guarding a node, and you know only a few ship can come in at a time, you got the possibiltiy to concetrate the firepower of a whole fleet on just a few targets. The GTVA could hold a node like that for a long time and inflict horrendus losses to the shivans before being forced to pull back (attrition). And they pull to another node and repeat the process. Sure, the shivan would win in the end, but at a MASSIVE, and I mean MASSIVE price.

A good node blockade is worth gold!

[StarSlayer]

Last time i played with fred the magic number for a Destroyer frontal assault on a Jugg was 7 with 3-4 losses.  The major problem for destroyers is the fact that beams aren't the best Weapon for declawing a Sathanas and once its BFReds are down it still takes quite a while to cut through its hitpoints.  Even with the entire GTVA fleet sitting on the Jumpnode you get the issue of diminishing marginal returns, ie how many ships do you think you can have parked in the same space and still have them effectively fight?  Only 10-20 could still have a decent line of fire at any one time the rest would just be in the way.  When properly used strikecraft can strip the Jugg and leave it as bait for a Deimos(granted the gunnery crews would die of boredom) but that takes time and isn't neccasarily going to be effective in a blockade situation with everybody and their mum shooting beams all over the place.  The GTVA doesn't have a weapon that can take down a Jugg quickly and effectively, that means it needs to Destroyer spam it, which is costly and involves time consuming battles.  If they cannot wipe out the first Jugg before the next one enters system then they are screwed since once Juggs can start supporting each other they will be wiping on Destroyers left and right.

[Snail]

3-4 destroyers loose bigtime to the Sath. It vaporizes them easily receiving about 20% damage.

[AlphaOne]

Are you sure about that thing? I mean we do have RBC's! Also you can park a s**t load of them at any jump point! Add a couple of destroyers and well i'l be damaned if you can prove to me that any jug can get through 50 or more RBC's and at least 20 destroyers. Orions please no god damn Hecates cuz they suck.

[StarSlayer]

Like i said law of diminishing marginal returns, you reach a point where the more warships you park in a confined space the less effective they are going to be.   You can certainly put hundreds of ships sitting on the gate but only a fraction will be able to effectively fire.

[TrashMan]

10 destroyers parked around the node is more than enough to quickly destroy a Sathanas...A Sath has to clear the jump node for anotehr one to jump in, and when it jumps in it's rear is exposed for beam raping (maby even disabling, thus creating a great cork for the next sath that comes in..*BOOOm* )

Adda ****load of bomber waiting to declaw any ship that comes in and you get a nice, tihngs blockade that even the shivans will have trouble braking.

[Snail]

10 destroyers parked around the node is more than enough to quickly destroy a Sathanas...A Sath has to clear the jump node for anotehr one to jump in, and when it jumps in it's rear is exposed for beam raping (maby even disabling, thus creating a great cork for the next sath that comes in..*BOOOm* )

Adda ****load of bomber waiting to declaw any ship that comes in and you get a nice, tihngs blockade that even the shivans will have trouble braking.

Try these things before you say it.