Author Topic: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?  (Read 25515 times)

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Offline Mobius

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
They didn't actually "live" in subspace, you barbarians! :P

Open your minds...subspace was important for them!!!
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Offline Vip

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
I just thought what a suitable punishment that could be... The few Ancients that survived because they remained in shelters, looking at the stars that were once their empire. Unable to launch from surface, either by losing all the tech/manpower/resources to build a space craft or by everything being shot down by Shivan vesels lurking at the orbit... Scary.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
Or there was more than one Lucifer...In which case a few ships won't be enough.
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Offline Vip

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
They didn't actually "live" in subspace, you barbarians! :P

Open your minds...subspace was important for them!!!

Living=spending most of the time in current place. Sure, the subspace was important to them, but they didn't spent their freaking leasure time there :P Choice of words, Mobius...
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
We don't have a proof. And the Lucifer was deployed to make planets unhabitable. No, it isn't designed to "exterminate" a species.  :p

There are big problems with this statement.

Specifically, the only way to exterminate a species is to kill them all. Which the Lucifer is superbly equipped to do; it can glass a world from orbit, necessary to kill off a species with certainity, and because it does not rely on some form of expendable munition (read that: Harbinger bombs, the GTA could have wiped out Vasuda Prime just as thoroughly if they could get the bombs to the target) to do it, then the Lucifer can glass a planet hundreds or thousands of times, as many as is required to ensure nobody escapes. To claim this capablity was not intended in its design is extremely tenuous.

Furthermore while there is no proof, the circumstantial evidence is very persuasive: technologically and numerically the Lucifer fleet is vastly inferior to the fleet deployed in FS2. It seems probable it is therefore of an earlier vintage, and somebody cut it down to its current size. The only known, and hence best, candidates for reason for deployment and inflicting losses on it are the Ancients. So no, it's not proveable, but it's the best theory out there.


On other subjects: given the Ancients had a much larger empire than the GTVA (this is what the GTVA believes however, and as an ingame source and not a :V: statement the possiblity of a fallible narrator comes into the equation), it makes sense they had a larger fleet. Given that they encountered many sentient species, whereas the Terrans and Vasudans have only run into each other (and the Shivans), and unless their expansion was along a single line of jump nodes (highly improbable),  they must have had a large fleet to push in so many directions at once. Assuming they made some attempt to hold the line at the edges of expansion against anyone who might wander in also implies a large fleet.

:V:'s statement that the Lucifer's shields would not hold up against FS2-era weaponry implies that the Lucy's shield worked on different principles from fighter shields. After all, lest we forget, the Lucifer spent 18 hours bombarding Vasuda Prime, and had to have made some kind of approach to it too. During which the PVN would have thrown everything they had at it. The resources of a world are not to be sniffed at; those of a homeworld, heavily fortified, are even less so. (Vasuda Prime had a direct node connection to Antares, which was often under Terran control or at least contested...and recall if somebody gets through to Vasuda Prime and drops a Harbinger we're looking at losing several hundred square kilometers just from the primary effects (blast itself) and an environmental disaster of momumental proportions.) The Harbinger, FS1's most powerful weapon, does damage equivalent to 2/3s of a Helios bomb. The Vasudans doubtless had their own super-warheads, or at least something as capable as a Tsunami, and no shortage of delievery platforms: this was their homeworld, they would have strapped weapons to anything that could move and stopped at nothing to deliever them to the target.

Yet the Lucifer shrugged it all off. This implies weapons below a certain power level cannot damage the Lucifer. If you could attrit its shields down to nothing like a fighter, then the PVN would almost certainly have managed it. However, the problem is worse than it appears even then. The Vasudans have a known willingness to sacrifice their lives for the greater good (Anubis tech room entry, the HoL attempt to ram an explosives-filled cruiser into your home destroyer in FS1), and it is therefore certain that, in their darkest hour, someone (probably lots of someones) strapped the biggest number of bombs they could onto their ship and rammed the Lucy. An Amun packed full of Tsunamis or equivalent is going to make a boom at least equivalent to an FS2 Helios, probably more. (Nevermind an Aten loaded with nukes.) This didn't bother the Lucifer either.

Therefore it follows that it is worse than weapons below a certain power level being unable to harm the Lucifer. It was immune to that type of weapon. There are two new weapon types in FS2: flak and beams. Flak, however, is merely explosives and projectiles delievered to the target in a new fashion. Beams are the only truly all-new weapon type. This also makes them the only possible candidate for "FS2-era weapons the Lucifer's shields cannot stand up to".

This doesn't necessarily prove that beams beat all shields (though arguing they don't beat fighter shields is a lost cause for what should be obvious reasons), but it does prove reasonably well that they would beat the type of shielding the Lucifer used.
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Offline Snail

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
Oooh... Long post.

And I agree.

 

Offline Hades

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
Oooh... Long post.

And I agree.

I agree to agree.
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Offline Vip

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
Agreed. A helios is just a single blast of energy. Very strong, but single. However beams deliver an excessive amount of energy (equivalent to maaaany Harbringers) for several seconds... As seen in the FS2 intro, an SSL could rip an Orion. I guess than BGreens and similar where capable of the same, even if on smaller scale. And a BFRed could certainly do the same or even more than an SSL.
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Offline Snail

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
Well my personal theory about beams piercing 'sheath' shields is that the sheath shield is basically an extremely strong shield that regenerates extremely quickly, and only a constant barrage of fire can pierce this shield. The damage needed is probably many, many Harbinger bombs exploding on the Lucifer all at once for about a minute constantly without break. Even a pause for a second or two will allow the shield to recharge to half or even full strength. All damage must be constant, with damage being delivered every split second.

The only way this could be done in the FS universe devised is the use of beam weapons. Beam weapons deliver a whole load of damage constantly for as long as the beam is fired at the targeted ship (in this case a Lucifer class destroyer). The beam will be able to pierce the shield after only a few seconds on the shield. Because the beam is always firing upon the shield, the Lucifer does not have enough time to recharge its shield. Thus, the beam will burst through, vomiting all its plasma on the Lucifer.

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
Scary thing indeed. Good point :)

Living=spending most of the time in current place. Sure, the subspace was important to them, but they didn't spent their freaking leasure time there :P Choice of words, Mobius...

There's a difference between "live" in space and live in space. :P

There are big problems with this statement.

Specifically, the only way to exterminate a species is to kill them all. Which the Lucifer is superbly equipped to do; it can glass a world from orbit, necessary to kill off a species with certainity, and because it does not rely on some form of expendable munition (read that: Harbinger bombs, the GTA could have wiped out Vasuda Prime just as thoroughly if they could get the bombs to the target) to do it, then the Lucifer can glass a planet hundreds or thousands of times, as many as is required to ensure nobody escapes. To claim this capablity was not intended in its design is extremely tenuous.

You give for sure that a species lives only on its homeworld. The Lucifer bombarded Vasuda Prime and attempted to bombard Earth. It ignored any other habitable planet. A species, anyways, can survive in space. Just think of space stations and hidden outposts in asteroid belts. The Lucifer didn't have a great launch capacity, so its fighter and bomber complement wasn't enough to face hordes of escort fighters that have to protect transports fleeing from a planet.

It is designed to make planets inhabitable, but it isn't good at terminating a species.

Quote
On other subjects: given the Ancients had a much larger empire than the GTVA (this is what the GTVA believes however, and as an ingame source and not a :V: statement the possiblity of a fallible narrator comes into the equation), it makes sense they had a larger fleet. Given that they encountered many sentient species, whereas the Terrans and Vasudans have only run into each other (and the Shivans), and unless their expansion was along a single line of jump nodes (highly improbable),  they must have had a large fleet to push in so many directions at once. Assuming they made some attempt to hold the line at the edges of expansion against anyone who might wander in also implies a large fleet.

:yes:

Quote
:V:'s statement that the Lucifer's shields would not hold up against FS2-era weaponry implies that the Lucy's shield worked on different principles from fighter shields. After all, lest we forget, the Lucifer spent 18 hours bombarding Vasuda Prime, and had to have made some kind of approach to it too. During which the PVN would have thrown everything they had at it. The resources of a world are not to be sniffed at; those of a homeworld, heavily fortified, are even less so. (Vasuda Prime had a direct node connection to Antares, which was often under Terran control or at least contested...and recall if somebody gets through to Vasuda Prime and drops a Harbinger we're looking at losing several hundred square kilometers just from the primary effects (blast itself) and an environmental disaster of momumental proportions.) The Harbinger, FS1's most powerful weapon, does damage equivalent to 2/3s of a Helios bomb. The Vasudans doubtless had their own super-warheads, or at least something as capable as a Tsunami, and no shortage of delievery platforms: this was their homeworld, they would have strapped weapons to anything that could move and stopped at nothing to deliever them to the target.

Was the Harbinger introduced only later in the main FS1 campaign?

Quote
Yet the Lucifer shrugged it all off. This implies weapons below a certain power level cannot damage the Lucifer. If you could attrit its shields down to nothing like a fighter, then the PVN would almost certainly have managed it. However, the problem is worse than it appears even then. The Vasudans have a known willingness to sacrifice their lives for the greater good (Anubis tech room entry, the HoL attempt to ram an explosives-filled cruiser into your home destroyer in FS1), and it is therefore certain that, in their darkest hour, someone (probably lots of someones) strapped the biggest number of bombs they could onto their ship and rammed the Lucy. An Amun packed full of Tsunamis or equivalent is going to make a boom at least equivalent to an FS2 Helios, probably more. (Nevermind an Aten loaded with nukes.) This didn't bother the Lucifer either.

An explosion is an explosion. A beam cannon shot is something impressive(very high temperature). Using a beam cannon is pretty much like discharging the power of a star, in a minor part.

Torpedoes have a small shield factor. I'm not impressed of the fact that the Lucifer passed through a horde of kamikaze Vasudans.
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Offline Vip

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
As taken from FS1 Command Briefing:
"New Technology: Harbinger Bomb

The Harbinger will assist us greatly in any attacks against capital ships. Until recently, Harbingers were reserved for planetary attacks only. With this project nearing completion, we may be able to finally defeat the Lucifer. "

This means that the Hrabringers were never before used as anti-capship weapons.
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Offline Vip

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?

You give for sure that a species lives only on its homeworld. The Lucifer bombarded Vasuda Prime and attempted to bombard Earth. It ignored any other habitable planet. A species, anyways, can survive in space. Just think of space stations and hidden outposts in asteroid belts. The Lucifer didn't have a great launch capacity, so its fighter and bomber complement wasn't enough to face hordes of escort fighters that have to protect transports fleeing from a planet.

It is designed to make planets inhabitable, but it isn't good at terminating a species.

The problem is, most of the defender's fleet would be sent against the Lucy in order to stop her from reaching the homeworld. I guess they wouldn't have much left there fighting-capable...
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
See? It was introduced later in the campaign...so no planetary bombardments on Vasuda Prime!.

The problem is, most of the defender's fleet would be sent against the Lucy in order to stop her from reaching the homeworld. I guess they wouldn't have much left there fighting-capable...

The point of my post was about the Lucifer and the fact that it is only capable of bombard planets and attack sitting ducks(space stations, immobile destroyers) without posing a threat to convoys. Forget what happened in Vasuda Prime, mine was a generalized post :)
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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
The Lucifer doesn't just wipe out planets, it'll destroy any targets of opportunity in its path (installations, warships, basically any non-Shivans and it'll even fry Shivans that were unlucky enough to get in its line of fire).

The Lucifer might not be able to terminate a species on its own, but that's why it brings a fleet with it (Demon-class destroyer & lots of cruisers in FS1) to mop up any resistance/escapees.

About the shielding and beam weaponry, I'm in agreement with ngtm1r, Snail, vip and Hades.  Which would mean the GTVA beam weapons would bust up a Lucifer if they ever encountered one again.  Especially the BFGreen/LRBGreen.


 

Offline Vip

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
See? It was introduced later in the campaign...so no planetary bombardments on Vasuda Prime!.

Ekhm... it was never used before AGAINST CAPSHIPS. It was RESERVED for PLANETARY BOMBARDMENT, meaning they had the Harbringer for quite some time, possibly for a few years even. Read. Carefully. What. I. Post.
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
The Shivans arrive in Delta Serpentis, right?

Now tell me why there still are living Terrans and Vasudans in the systems they conquered.

Ekhm... it was never used before AGAINST CAPSHIPS. It was RESERVED for PLANETARY BOMBARDMENT, meaning they had the Harbringer for quite some time, possibly for a few years even. Read. Carefully. What. I. Post.

Calm down...  :p

Reaching Vasuda first...and Vasuda Prime then was undoubtely difficult. I was only saying that a planetary bombardment on Vasuda Prime was impossible.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
You give for sure that a species lives only on its homeworld. The Lucifer bombarded Vasuda Prime and attempted to bombard Earth. It ignored any other habitable planet. A species, anyways, can survive in space. Just think of space stations and hidden outposts in asteroid belts. The Lucifer didn't have a great launch capacity, so its fighter and bomber complement wasn't enough to face hordes of escort fighters that have to protect transports fleeing from a planet.

INCORRECT. Read the Lucifer's FS1 tech description again right now. Colonized is different from homeworld. Furthermore if it can do it to homeworlds it can do it to any world. The Shivans simply went for the most important targets first; you can't say they wouldn't have graduated to lesser ones afterwards. (And the FS1 tech description proves that they did attack other worlds.)

Being effectively invincible and posessing Shivan subspace drive technology, the Lucifer does not need to swat aside the escorts. It can simply ignore them. As long as you can run, the Lucifer can chase; the shield and known firepower of the SSL means it can successfully engage any spaceborne target and destroy it. It may take a long time to kill every last station, cruiser, and destroyer, but as long as the Lucifer's sheathe shield worked it has all the time in the world.

Also go watch the first Intel ani for the Lucifer again and tell me it has ****ty launch capacity; it launches hordes of Scorpions.

Was the Harbinger introduced only later in the main FS1 campaign?

Harbinger was already existant according to tech description, for use in planetary bombardment; the implication is that the GTA didn't have a form suitable for spaceborne deployment (no motive power probably).

Torpedoes have a small shield factor. I'm not impressed of the fact that the Lucifer passed through a horde of kamikaze Vasudans.

This is either a bad change made by the Port, or you're talking out of FS2 experience. Detonating a Tsunami at short range in FS1 was a very bad idea and invariably left an Apollo with full shields a flying wreck or dead; Harbingers were even worse.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2007, 03:40:09 pm by ngtm1r »
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Offline Vip

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
The Shivans arrive in Delta Serpentis, right?

Now tell me why there still are living Terrans and Vasudans in the systems they conquered.

A thought hit me. The Shivans almost always went for the homeworld of a species. Why ? It must be the best choice in their "logic". Can this mean that destroying Shivan homeworld/homestation/whatever would cripple them so much ? Just a thought.

Quote
Ekhm... it was never used before AGAINST CAPSHIPS. It was RESERVED for PLANETARY BOMBARDMENT, meaning they had the Harbringer for quite some time, possibly for a few years even. Read. Carefully. What. I. Post.

Calm down...  :p

Reaching Vasuda first...and Vasuda Prime then was undoubtely difficult. I was only saying that a planetary bombardment on Vasuda Prime was impossible.

Don't worry, I was just... putting pressure on those words :) Believe me, you need more than a mesage board post to get me angry :P

And that's a different point. Not being able to use the Harbringers and not being able to deliver them are two different matters. Good you made yourself clear :P
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Offline Vip

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
Also go watch the first Intel ani for the Lucifer again and tell me it has ****ty launch capacity; it launches hordes of Scorpions.

Heh, now I remembered that mission in FS1 ("Running the Gauntlet" me thinks), where the Lucy launched wave after wave after wave of Basilisks and some scorpions... It has enough capacity to give you a headache...
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Offline Jeff Vader

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
Heh, now I remembered that mission in FS1 ("Running the Gauntlet" me thinks), where the Lucy launched wave after wave after wave of Basilisks and some scorpions... It has enough capacity to give you a headache...

That is due to game mechanics. Having the same amount of ships present in a mission as in the intel anim would be quite challenging, never mind the game engine raping.  Or are you saying that you could hold off dozens or even hundreds of Scorpions at once?
23:40 < achillion > EveningTea: ass
23:40 < achillion > wait no
23:40 < achillion > evilbagel: ass
23:40 < EveningTea > ?
23:40 < achillion > 2-letter tab complete failure

14:08 < achillion > there's too much talk of butts and dongs in here
14:08 < achillion > the level of discourse has really plummeted
14:08 < achillion > Let's talk about politics instead
14:08 <@The_E > butts and dongs are part of #hard-light's brand now
14:08 <@The_E > well
14:08 <@The_E > EvilBagel's brand, at least

01:06 < T-Rog > welp
01:07 < T-Rog > I've got to take some very strong antibiotics
01:07 < achillion > penis infection?
01:08 < T-Rog > Chlamydia
01:08 < achillion > O.o
01:09 < achillion > well
01:09 < achillion > I guess that happens
01:09 < T-Rog > at least it's curable
01:09 < achillion > yeah
01:10 < T-Rog > I take it you weren't actually expecting it to be a penis infection
01:10 < achillion > I was not

14:04 < achillion > Sometimes the way to simplify is to just have a habit and not think about it too much
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15:41 <-INFO > EveningTea [[email protected]] has joined #hard-light
15:47 < EvilBagel> butt
15:51 < Achillion> yes
15:53 <-INFO > EveningTea [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]

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11:46 <-INFO > Kobrar [[email protected]] has joined #hard-light
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