[corvette108048]

There is no way in my mind that the Shivans  showed us even one tenth of there power look at what they did in the past. In FS1 look at the SD Lucifer to the Terrans and Vasudans that ship was even stronger to us then the SJ Sathana cause we had nothing that could destroy it unless it was in a subspace worm hole. It took us about 20 years to create the GTVA Colossus witch is just as strong as a Sathana but we have one Colossus and they have a fleet of Sathanas. With those Sathanas they destroyed the Capella star and it was not the first time they destroyed a star with the Sathanas, if you look at the Knossos portal and and the Nebula the Knossos portal was made by the ancients ten thousand years ago and beyond that portal there was a the nebula and the nebula was believed to come from a remanence of a super nova.

to end this if they destroyed a star ten thousand years ago and if they where fighting us with ten thousand year old technology how much wold the Shivans advance in 10k years?

[Mobius]

They seem not to have technological advance. The Ancients were incredibly strong, I can't believe they got defeated by proto-Shaitans and proto-Manticores.

[Fang_Taichou]

Really?  I heard the Ancients were only slightly more advanced technologically compared to the GTA and the PVN.  The reason the Ancients lost though was probably because they couldn't adapt quickly, unlike the GTA/PVN, as humans and vasudans fought in a war for 14 years, forcing them to upgrade technology and tactics rapidly.  This speed of development is probably why the GTA/PVN survived the first Great War, adapting Shivan shield tech + absorbing Ancient knowledge of subspace tracking and shield failure in subspace.

I'd guess if it wasn't for the GTA and PVN fighting each other all those years (big military budget, lots of combat experience, fast technological growth), each species would've been wiped out by the Shivans.

[Gamma_Draconis]

So the Terrans and Vasudans actually survived the war because of the Ancients and themselves as well. Technically, it took 3 races to survive the first Shivan onslaught then.

[corvette108048]

Really?  I heard the Ancients were only slightly more advanced technologically compared to the GTA and the PVN.  The reason the Ancients lost though was probably because they couldn't adapt quickly, unlike the GTA/PVN, as humans and vasudans fought in a war for 14 years, forcing them to upgrade technology and tactics rapidly.  This speed of development is probably why the GTA/PVN survived the first Great War, adapting Shivan shield tech + absorbing Ancient knowledge of subspace tracking and shield failure in subspace.

I'd guess if it wasn't for the GTA and PVN fighting each other all those years (big military budget, lots of combat experience, fast technological growth), each species would've been wiped out by the Shivans.

True but if they where going to make a FS3 and they where planning to before Interplay kicked the bucket how long would it to take the the GTVA to create an Knossos portal 20 or 30 years and we would become stronger and the Shivans would be no match for us

[Mobius]

Really?  I heard the Ancients were only slightly more advanced technologically compared to the GTA and the PVN.  The reason the Ancients lost though was probably because they couldn't adapt quickly, unlike the GTA/PVN, as humans and vasudans fought in a war for 14 years, forcing them to upgrade technology and tactics rapidly.  This speed of development is probably why the GTA/PVN survived the first Great War, adapting Shivan shield tech + absorbing Ancient knowledge of subspace tracking and shield failure in subspace.

How you can say something like that? The Ancients colonized thousands of star systems and defeated plenties of civilizations. There's no way you can consider their technology only "slightly more advanced" that the one the GTA and the PVN had. The Ancients have been colonizing the Universe for thousands of years. The Terrans have been doing it for what, just 300 years?

[Fang_Taichou]

I believe it was someone from Volition who said that the Ancients were only slightly more advanced.  Yes, they did invent the Knossos portal and conquered many civilizations, but they never really encountered any resistance (so those civilizations probably weren't anywhere close to the GTA/PVN) until they met the Shivans.  By that time, the Ancients weren't used to adapting quickly and thus were exterminated.

Gamma D. has a good point, it did take 3 races to win the 1st Great War (Ancient technology for subspace combat/tracking, GTA/PVN alliance & tech., although what do you suppose stolen shield tech from the Shivans would count as?)

[Gamma_Draconis]

You know, I get the feeling the second war with the Shivans was not really a war for the Shivans. We were just a bunch of annoying little pests and happened to get their way. If they really wanted to kill us, they would have been more aggressive.

Well, stealing the Shivan shielding technology was probably the works of the Terran since they were the ones who flew the missions to capture those technology.

[corvette108048]

Really?  I heard the Ancients were only slightly more advanced technologically compared to the GTA and the PVN.  The reason the Ancients lost though was probably because they couldn't adapt quickly, unlike the GTA/PVN, as humans and vasudans fought in a war for 14 years, forcing them to upgrade technology and tactics rapidly.  This speed of development is probably why the GTA/PVN survived the first Great War, adapting Shivan shield tech + absorbing Ancient knowledge of subspace tracking and shield failure in subspace.

How you can say something like that? The Ancients colonized thousands of star systems and defeated plenties of civilizations. There's no way you can consider their technology only "slightly more advanced" that the one the GTA and the PVN had. The Ancients have been colonizing the Universe for thousands of years. The Terrans have been doing it for what, just 300 years?

True and the ancients found out even though it was late how to destroy the lucifer

[Mobius]

They were overconfident in their abilities. They may have realized that they should have studied the shields used by their nemesis when it was too late. To them, it may have just appeared as an "advantage", not something that would have signed the end of the Ancient Empire.

And I can't believe that someone from said that the Ancients were only slightly more advanced than the GTA/PVN. They have been in war for thousands of years, they must have developed new technologies.

[Fang_Taichou]

Look, I'm not saying the Ancients were weak.  They were quite powerful to have conquered as much as they did (Knossos portals were one of their greatest achievements as far as we know).  The reason they lost, however, was because they weren't used to adapting quickly (something which only happens when you encounter difficult challenges, i.e. fighting an entrenched war for a long time).  They did discover how to destroy the Lucifer, which is quite a feat for a race to accomplish, it was just too late to carry out.  Now, if the Ancients were used to adapting and advanced technologically as quickly as the GTA & PVN, they could have been able to destroy the Lucifer before it wiped them out.

[Mobius]

No, no and no. Watch the cutscenes, the Ancients were cocky.

Trying to use the technology of their enemies...that's something they must have hated, a lot. The realized that the advantage given by the shields was incredible when it was too late.

[Fang_Taichou]

Uhh, that was the point I was trying to get across.

Ancients grew arrogant thinking they were the best in the universe.  Arrogance leads to stagnation of technological advancement, thus they don't develop new weapons, do any research on the enemy, etc.  Guess they figured out they need to change their ways in order to fight back but it was too late by then.

[Mobius]

They did not develop new technologies for a long time, I think, but they must have reached an incredible level.

[Kie99]

If they only encountered weak civilisations, their military capabilities would not progress much, although their scientific capabilities would.  Because of this they spread out through several galaxies not really advancing militarily.  Then the Shivans attacked them with a massive fleet of Impervious super destroyers.  The Shivans could have annihilated the GTVA, there's no doubt about that.

[Fang_Taichou]

I agree with Kie.

That incredible technological level probably wasn't weaponry, otherwise shielding wouldn't have been an issue for them.  They've got Knossos portals all over the galaxy, so in that regard they were advanced.  Their lack of contact with tough civilizations made them cocky and not advance their military research (they definitely didn't have any beam weapons otherwise the Lucifer wouldn't have been a problem), thus the Shivans were able to annihilate them.

GTA and PVN were at constant war with each other for 14 years, neither side really winning.  This pushed them to put military technological development as the #1 priority, while other research was set as less important (hence the GTA and PVN don't have anything similar to a Knossos).  As both sides were used to fighting powerful enemies, they were willing to do anything to survive (not as 'cocky' as the Ancients in this regard).

[Mobius]

But they fought before reaching that technological level. The first civilizations they fought with must have been terrible opponents, so the Ancients must have developed new technologies. And remember that the Ancients subduded OR crushed their opponents...they captured their technologies.

Each civilization has its hot spots. The Vasudans, for example, are very good at designing engines. The Ancients reached an incredible level.

[Fang_Taichou]

But they fought before reaching that technological level. The first civilizations they fought with must have been terrible opponents, so the Ancients must have developed new technologies. And remember that the Ancients subduded OR crushed their opponents...they captured their technologies.

Each civilization has its hot spots. The Vasudans, for example, are very good at designing engines. The Ancients reached an incredible level.

http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Ancients

Read the subsection on Ancients technology.  They were the best in subspace technology (second to the Shivans).  Besides that, they weren't that far ahead of the terrans/vasudans of FS1.

[NGTM-1R]

The problem is, the Shivans aren't toying with us. They went straight for the throat and tried to rip it out in FS1. To extend the metaphor, they sank their teeth in, but about that time the victim managed to find the gun in his drawer and pumped the Shivans full of lead before they actually tore the throat out. (Perhaps literally too, if anybody in "Good Luck" had Avengers.)

FS2 makes it obvious the Shivans were after something else by the Battle of Capella; the GTVA wasn't even on their list of concerns. The Nebular Campaign showed little sign of "toying" really, but was a straight-up brawl, with little recourse to tactical ingenuity by either side.

[Mobius]

[...] though comments by Volition developers state that the Ancients were no more than a few decades ahead of the GTA and PVN at the time of Freespace 1, except in the area of subspace.

That's the most stupid thing I have ever heard from !

And how old are those comments? I would accept them only if they're as old as FS1. I can't believe they said something like that after releasing FS2(beam cannons, Colossus and Sathanas...I can only imagine what the Ancients came up with after thousands of years of space colonization and conquest). If the Ancients were old, really old, they would have developed cutting edge technologies!