Author Topic: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?  (Read 25298 times)

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Offline Snail

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
Okay, I give up, this is arguing and flaming.

 

Offline Hades

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
Maybe it was the lucifer fleet that destroyed the ancients.
(Just trying to stop the flaming).
[22:29] <sigtau> Hello, #hard-light?  I'm trying to tell a girl she looks really good for someone who doesn't exercise.  How do I word that non-offensively?
[22:29] <RangerKarl|AtWork> "you look like a big tasty muffin"
----
<batwota> wouldn’t that mean that it’s prepared to kiss your ass if you flank it :p
<batwota> wow
<batwota> KILL

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
No. I have no intention of offending you. But I can offend your frozen ideas.

A few decades. A few decades. A few decades.

A much bigger Empire. A much bigger Empire. A much bigger Empire.

That's enough to justify my theories.

Maybe it was the lucifer fleet that destroyed the ancients.
(Just trying to stop the flaming).

We don't have a proof. And the Lucifer was deployed to make planets unhabitable. No, it isn't designed to "exterminate" a species.  :p
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Offline Hades

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
What about the Sathanas fleet? :shaking:

Wait I just remembered.It had to have been the Lucifer; there records say how to kill it.
[22:29] <sigtau> Hello, #hard-light?  I'm trying to tell a girl she looks really good for someone who doesn't exercise.  How do I word that non-offensively?
[22:29] <RangerKarl|AtWork> "you look like a big tasty muffin"
----
<batwota> wouldn’t that mean that it’s prepared to kiss your ass if you flank it :p
<batwota> wow
<batwota> KILL

 

Offline Vip

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
Really? Why didn't the GTA build the Icanus in 2321 and wipe out the Vasudans in an instant. The Ancients DO NOT have Supperjuggernauts, which is proven wrong already by canon. They DO NOT have Hives, which is also contradicted by fully-canon sources.

If they had survived the 8,000 years, then yes, I think they would have SJs and Hives, but at the time they were wiped out, they had only destroyers and maybe a few superdestroyers.

Stop behaving like a ********!!!

The Terrans considered superdestroyers useless, that's why they didn't build them!

Ah, according to you...the Ancients might have had 1325796119716714267256421466642742616 cruisers, corvettes and destroyers and not even a single juggernaut? It is a fact that the Ancients had a massive fleet. I simply can't believe that they didn't have bigger warships.

But why do you need a juggernaut, if for the same price you can have several destroyers, which are can be in several places at once, have more firepower combined, can be faster built ?

Quote
The point is, Mobius, that before the Shivans, the Ancients presumably didn't need anything bigger than a destroyer. Let's even assume that they built a Juggernaut, as powerful as a Colossus, just for pride. One ship can't be in a few places at once, and it can be destroyed if swarmed by smaller, but more numerous opponent. And Shivans love to send waves after waves of ships. Their tactics look like:
1. Send in a task force.
2. If the task force fails, send in a bigger one. Repeat.

The Shivans were their last opponents. And I'm refering to all the species they fought. Both Terrans and Vasudans, who have been colonizing systems for a few hundred years, came out with a Juggernaut[/n]. The Ancients have been doing it for thousands and thousands of years, dammit. What's the point in having billions of destroyers and not even a Juggernaut? Come on...

Yes, they came with the juggernauts and superdestroyers... AFTER meeting the Shivans !!!

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Nobody's negating that the Ancients were capable of building juggernauts. But without a good reason, they wouldn't construct a whole armada of them, and one ship just won't stop a race such as the Shivans. We have no idea how much time did the extermination of the Ancients take, but seeing how Knossos portals (which were pressumably the only thing making the node usable) are still intact, it was fast. So fast, that the Ancients didn't managed to cut off Shivans. This means that they probably didn't have the time to construct a whole new Fleet. Even for such a wealthy race, construction of a Collie class ship would take months. The Shivans wouldn't give them enough time to accomplish this.

I think you're continuously negating their capability of building Juggernauts. Internal rebellions? The fact that Juggernauts are powerful? These are valid reasons.

AM NOT :P I'm just saying they DIDN'T HAVE A REASON TO CONSTRUCT A JUGGERNAUT ARMADA. Clear ? And about those rebellions - a bunch of smaller, but more numerous ships is far more useful in a rebellion. Just look at NTF's last run to the Gamma Draconis. They outmaneuvered the Colossus, something they could not achieve with multiple destroyers waiting for them.
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
No, they simply talked about tracking  ships in subspace. They probably hadn't the Lucifer in mind.

Without shields, Shivan spacecraft becomes weaker *cough* Dragon *cough*. Without shields, the Ancients would have had a chance.

But why do you need a juggernaut, if for the same price you can have several destroyers, which are can be in several places at once, have more firepower combined, can be faster built ?

Why would you need a corvette, if you can have 2-3 cruisers?

:wtf:

It doesn't make sense!  :rolleyes:

Yes, they came with the juggernauts and superdestroyers... AFTER meeting the Shivans !!!

Proofs?  :confused:

AM NOT :P I'm just saying they DIDN'T HAVE A REASON TO CONSTRUCT A JUGGERNAUT ARMADA. Clear ? And about those rebellions - a bunch of smaller, but more numerous ships is far more useful in a rebellion. Just look at NTF's last run to the Gamma Draconis. They outmaneuvered the Colossus, something they could not achieve with multiple destroyers waiting for them.

No. We're talking about the FreeSpace Universe, not FreeSpace battles in-game. A couple of corvettes can take out a destroyer...in game...but a destroyer is supposed to be a fearsome presence.

And Pride is a valid reason.
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Offline Snail

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
We have basically no canon evidence on the Ancients except that they are only slightly superior to the T/Vs.

 

Offline Vip

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
No, they simply talked about tracking  ships in subspace. They probably hadn't the Lucifer in mind.

Without shields, Shivan spacecraft becomes weaker *cough* Dragon *cough*. Without shields, the Ancients would have had a chance.

So what, swarms of Dragons destroyed the Ancient Fleet ? Come on...

Quote
But why do you need a juggernaut, if for the same price you can have several destroyers, which are can be in several places at once, have more firepower combined, can be faster built ?

Why would you need a corvette, if you can have 2-3 cruisers?

:wtf:

It doesn't make sense!  :rolleyes:

If the cruisers were a bit less crappy than the Fenris, and the Ancients could coordinate them well, then it's even better than corvettes !

Quote
Yes, they came with the juggernauts and superdestroyers... AFTER meeting the Shivans !!!

Proofs?  :confused:

Ummm, as far as we know there was no superdestroyer in the T/V war... And the Collie was announced 10 years after destruction of Lucifer. They could have plans for them before, but hell, NASA or US Military also has many different plans, not always being possible or just cost/effective:P

Quote
AM NOT :P I'm just saying they DIDN'T HAVE A REASON TO CONSTRUCT A JUGGERNAUT ARMADA. Clear ? And about those rebellions - a bunch of smaller, but more numerous ships is far more useful in a rebellion. Just look at NTF's last run to the Gamma Draconis. They outmaneuvered the Colossus, something they could not achieve with multiple destroyers waiting for them.

No. We're talking about the FreeSpace Universe, not FreeSpace battles in-game. A couple of corvettes can take out a destroyer...in game...but a destroyer is supposed to be a fearsome presence.

Umm, last time I checked Command Briefings were part of the FreeSpace Universe... If they are not, then what is ? Only other thing besides te game we have is the Freespace Reference Bible, and there's not much in it...

Quote
And Pride is a valid reason.

To build a Juggernaut armada ? Even Command isn't that stupid...
Lieutenant Commander Richard "Viper" Pred

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
Ok, I didn't want to post it...but I'm now morally forced to do it :blah:

I think that :v: sucked at creating the Ancients. They didn't give us the informations we need, they didn't give out reasonable informations about them. Saying "this civilization expanded its Empire for thousands of years" is easy. They failed at giving reasonable info. They didn't think a lot about the Ancients, they wrote something and made cutscenes. Our discussions about the Ancients(as well as our MODs and our theories based on them)are all the result of a reasonable thinking. We flame each other for the so called "canon" that, in this case, is result of a poor 2 minutes thinking. :v: simply failed with the Ancients. They made a great game, but they failed in one of the aspects: in creating a valid background for one of their species.

We're free to believe on whatever we think.

So what, swarms of Dragons destroyed the Ancient Fleet ? Come on...

No, but Dragons wiped out Ancients fighters and paved the way for SHIVAN BOMBERS :P

If the cruisers were a bit less crappy than the Fenris, and the Ancients could coordinate them well, then it's even better than corvettes !

That's another common in-game thought. Do you realize that beam cannons are supposed to be much stronger than their in-game counterparts? In every videogame, everything is capable of sustaining much more damage. We need many gun shots to kill a man, we usually need 2+ missiles to shoot down a plane...and we need many beam shots to destroy a warship.

Just free your mind!!!  :pimp:

Umm, last time I checked Command Briefings were part of the FreeSpace Universe... If they are not, then what is ? Only other thing besides te game we have is the Freespace Reference Bible, and there's not much in it...

:wtf:

What do you mean? I was criticizing your in-game thoughts!

To build a Juggernaut armada ? Even Command isn't that stupid...

Again with those comments on Command...  :doubt:


I'm an Ancient.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2007, 10:36:32 am by Black Wolf »
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Offline Snail

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
It's canon. A bad part of canon, yes. But canon.


And no more ****ing Command jokes. :rolleyes:

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
Ha hem...

That's your interpretation of canon.
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Offline Vip

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
Ok, I didn't want to post it...but I'm now morally forced to do it :blah:

I think that :v: sucked at creating the Ancients. They didn't give us the informations we need, they didn't give out reasonable informations about them. Saying "this civilization expanded its Empire for thousands of years" is easy. They failed at giving reasonable info. They didn't think a lot about the Ancients, they wrote something and made cutscenes. Our discussions about the Ancients(as well as our MODs and our theories based on them)are all the result of a reasonable thinking. We flame each other for the so called "canon" that, in this case, is result of a poor 2 minutes thinking. :v: simply failed with the Ancients. They made a great game, but they failed in one of the aspects: in creating a valid background for one of their species.

We're free to believe on whatever we think.

Oh come on, that's such a typical whining I hear from other SW fans... "George Lucas messed up things LIVE WITH IT"... No, I will not. I will try to make some logic out of it.

Quote
If the cruisers were a bit less crappy than the Fenris, and the Ancients could coordinate them well, then it's even better than corvettes !

That's another common in-game thought. Do you realize that beam cannons are supposed to be much stronger than their in-game counterparts? In every videogame, everything is capable of sustaining much more damage. We need many gun shots to kill a man, we usually need 2+ missiles to shoot down a plane...and we need many beam shots to destroy a warship.

Just free your mind!!!  :pimp:

I could explain my logic here... but I won't :P Too tired...

Quote
Umm, last time I checked Command Briefings were part of the FreeSpace Universe... If they are not, then what is ? Only other thing besides te game we have is the Freespace Reference Bible, and there's not much in it...

:wtf:

What do you mean? I was criticizing your in-game thoughts!

What I said - in the Command Briefings, Petrarch states that the NTF has outmaneuvered the Colossus. If they 5 destroyers instead of the Collie and could coordinate them, the NTF would surely have a much tougher times outmaneuvering them. All based on briefings and logic.
What you said - stop thinking ingame.

WTF ?

Quote
To build a Juggernaut armada ? Even Command isn't that stupid...

Again with those comments on Command...  :doubt:

Sorry, still can't get used to this new "No Command bashing" directive... On the other hand, after hearing Command jokes every day for the past few years vets here can get pissed off.

Quote

I'm an Ancient.


Prove that to me :P
« Last Edit: September 01, 2007, 10:36:36 am by Black Wolf »
Lieutenant Commander Richard "Viper" Pred

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
Ummm, as far as we know there was no superdestroyer in the T/V war... And the Collie was announced 10 years after destruction of Lucifer. They could have plans for them before, but hell, NASA or US Military also has many different plans, not always being possible or just cost/effective:P

1) NASA and US Military can only use the resources of a single nation of a single planet, don't compare them with the GTA;

2) Read as many table entries as you can. I read something about superdestroyers and the fact that they were considered as useless warships for a long time.

I could explain my logic here... but I won't :P Too tired...

Good boy :nod:

What I said - in the Command Briefings, Petrarch states that the NTF has outmaneuvered the Colossus. If they 5 destroyers instead of the Collie and could coordinate them, the NTF would surely have a much tougher times outmaneuvering them. All based on briefings and logic.
What you said - stop thinking ingame.

WTF ?

Yes, stop thinking in-game. How can you give for sure that 5 destroyers would have changed the outcome of that engagement?

Quote

I'm an Ancient.


Prove that to me :P


You Shall SeeTM!!!
« Last Edit: September 01, 2007, 10:36:55 am by Black Wolf »
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Offline Kie99

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
Will you stop with the massive ****ing text?
"You shot me in the bollocks, Tim"
"Like I said, no hard feelings"

 

Offline Vip

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
Ummm, as far as we know there was no superdestroyer in the T/V war... And the Collie was announced 10 years after destruction of Lucifer. They could have plans for them before, but hell, NASA or US Military also has many different plans, not always being possible or just cost/effective:P

1) NASA and US Military can only use the resources of a single nation of a single planet, don't compare them with the GTA;

2) Read as many table entries as you can. I read something about superdestroyers and the fact that they were considered as useless warships for a long time.

1) GTA has also many other things to spend money on tahn US or NASA :P

2)Unfortunately, I do not know how to read table entries, so I can rely only on techroom and game.

Quote
What I said - in the Command Briefings, Petrarch states that the NTF has outmaneuvered the Colossus. If they 5 destroyers instead of the Collie and could coordinate them, the NTF would surely have a much tougher times outmaneuvering them. All based on briefings and logic.
What you said - stop thinking ingame.

WTF ?

Yes, stop thinking in-game. How can you give for sure that 5 destroyers would have changed the outcome of that engagement?

I'll speak slowely and clearly. NTF OUTMANEUVERED the Collie. Would they also be able to do this if there were five destroyers instead of one Collie there, placed so that they could not escape ? One ship can only be in one place. Five ships can make a perimeter around the node. 1 Collie has more firepower than 5 Orions combined, but 5 Orions can target more ships at once and can bring more cannons than the Collie on their targets. Is it something with my English that you can't understand this ?

Quote
Quote

I'm an Ancient.


Prove that to me :P


You Shall SeeTM!!!


Ancient Fanboy, phh...
« Last Edit: September 01, 2007, 10:36:57 am by Black Wolf »
Lieutenant Commander Richard "Viper" Pred

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
That's your interpretation of canon.

It's still canon. It's up to you how you interpret it. I interpret it as the Ancients are weak, you interpret is as the Ancients are unbelievably strong. It doesn't matter.

Will you stop with the massive ****ing text?

I've basically given up on this thread.

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
Will you stop with the massive ****ing text?

Will you stop with your pointless spamming? :P

No, that text is useful. And I don't flame with it, so there are no problems :P

1) GTA has also many other things to spend money on tahn US or NASA :P

2)Unfortunately, I do not know how to read table entries, so I can rely only on techroom and game.

1) :P

2) That's a problem. Under all points of view :P

I'll speak slowely and clearly. NTF OUTMANEUVERED the Collie. Would they also be able to do this if there were five destroyers instead of one Collie there, placed so that they could not escape ? One ship can only be in one place. Five ships can make a perimeter around the node. 1 Collie has more firepower than 5 Orions combined, but 5 Orions can target more ships at once and can bring more cannons than the Collie on their targets. Is it something with my English that you can't understand this ?

Yes, because they would have probably destroyed/damaged them. When fighting the Repulse, the Colossus sustained damage. The firepower discharged by the Repulse was enough to cripple a destroyer. Furthermore, the NTF could rely on many Orions and Deimos during that battle. They couldn't destroy the Colossus, but they could destroy...destroyers.

And remember that only certain circumstances call for the sacrifice of a ship. And the NTF's push was an unexpected move.

Quote
Quote

I'm an Ancient.


Prove that to me :P


You Shall SeeTM!!!


Ancient Fanboy, phh...

Yes. Ancient Fanboy.  ;7

That's your interpretation of canon.

It's still canon. It's up to you how you interpret it. I interpret it as the Ancients are weak, you interpret is as the Ancients are unbelievably strong. It doesn't matter.

What do you mean? I say "That's your interpretation of canon" and you reply with "It's still canon"! This is arrogance! :wtf:

:v: wasn't clear. That's why none of our theories can be accepted or denied.

I've basically given up on this thread.

But you're still posting :P
« Last Edit: September 01, 2007, 10:36:59 am by Black Wolf »
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Offline Snail

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
What do you mean? I say "That's your interpretation of canon" and you reply with "It's still canon"! This is arrogance! :wtf:

This is why I've given up on this thread.

You're not even reading what I'm writing. I said "It's up to you how you interpret it."  :doubt:

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
That's not the point. We have poor info about the Ancients. I can't give for sure that your theories aren't valid. You should have done the same...you accept my theories as "possible" just because you fear another Flame WarTM. I don't want to flame males.
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Offline Vip

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Re: Are the Shivans toying with the Terrans and Vasudans?
Quote from: Mobius
1) GTA has also many other things to spend money on tahn US or NASA :P

2)Unfortunately, I do not know how to read table entries, so I can rely only on techroom and game.

1) :P

2) That's a problem. Under all points of view :P

2) Umm, yeah... Ooops ? :P

Quote
I'll speak slowely and clearly. NTF OUTMANEUVERED the Collie. Would they also be able to do this if there were five destroyers instead of one Collie there, placed so that they could not escape ? One ship can only be in one place. Five ships can make a perimeter around the node. 1 Collie has more firepower than 5 Orions combined, but 5 Orions can target more ships at once and can bring more cannons than the Collie on their targets. Is it something with my English that you can't understand this ?

Yes, because they would have probably destroyed/damaged them. When fighting the Repulse, the Colossus sustained damage. The firepower discharged by the Repulse was enough to cripple a destroyer. Furthermore, the NTF could rely on many Orions and Deimos during that battle. They couldn't destroy the Colossus, but they could destroy...destroyers.

Ummm, wasn't the Colossus damaged because this big, shiny Repulse rammed it ? :P Well, if they could destroy 5 destroyers, why couldn't they cripple the Colossus ?

Quote
And remember that only certain circumstances call for the sacrifice of a ship. And the NTF's push was an unexpected move.

I just don't get about what sacrifice are you talking about...
Lieutenant Commander Richard "Viper" Pred