[Scourge of Ages]

Since in every third thread roughly, there arises some discussion about what is or is not canon, how crazy George Lucas is, and what books suck or do not, I thought I would open one strictly for that purpose.
Now I know somebody's going to say "But this is a mod forum, not a general Star Wars forum!", I say that this'll at least keep the normal threads a little cleaner.

And now to start this party:
Say what you will about the NJO series of books, I think they were at least interesting and generally well-written. Maybe they didn't make sense or fit in to continuity or whatever, they were still a good story.

Also, just because you generally don't like anything after the Thrawn trilogy and you despise NJO, it doesn't mean there's nothing good left. I've read a few of the Legacy of the Force books, and I think they're really good.

Stickied  --Chief

Un-sticked due to lack of continuing relevance  --Brand-X

[chief1983]

So far, among the current staff, the general consensus is just that the Vong idea itself doesn't fit right.  No one likes how the series fits in, and if no one on the staff wants to be involved with it, the odds of getting anything based around it aren't very good.  The same goes for the prequels, midichlorians, significant lack of attempt to fit established events and vehicles, etc.  The prequels will not be used as a canon reference over books that already established something that should have happened during the same timeline.  If it can be reasoned (within reason ) that something could have happened in the prequels without conflicting other references, that isn't inane, it may be considered as a source.  But the primary sources are, Original Trilogy, most of the books, everything else.  This doesn't really eliminate too much, just a few ships from the New Trilogy that no one on the staff likes, and particular events surrounding the Vong.  Everything is pretty much fair game I think.

[Scourge of Ages]

OOH OOH! What about the Black Fleet Crisis!? K-Wings FTW!!!!one1!

[maje]

Well, I know I've done my share of thread derailing, so I'm part of the guilty lot.  Apologies on that front.

If there is anything good post-Thrawn trilogy, I wouldn't know because I stopped reading Star Wars novels and comics roughly 8 years ago, right before the whole Episode I craze.

The books I remember having read are all rooted in OT stuff, maybe the NT has some good EU, I really don't know.

[jr2]

I always thought that the ships were better in the new trilogy (older ships) because of Republic vs Totalitarian state of things.  *shrugs*  Lottsa corruption in a totalitarian state.  IDK

[TopAce]

I still consider everything "canon" that is officially declared canon. This includes the prequels (which is the highest level of canon, and I don't see why some "fans" argue that they aren't/shouldn't be), the Thrawn campaign, and the Yuuzhan Vong invasion. Everything, except for those sources that directly contradict canon - Infinities stories - is officially recognized as "happened" in the SW universe.

Why we are kind of lucky is that we will only have to deal with the Galactic Civil War, supposing that our shipset will be designed for this period. Why I say we are lucky is because most of the "space action" is covered in the X-wing series of games, games that most of you know already, and will compare SWC's feel to your favorite SW space sim. Therefore I fail to see why the canonicity of the Yuuzhan Vong needs to be discussed here, considering that it is heavily unlikely we will cover that period. Even if we could complete models so fast - and here I do not only mean finalizing meshes, but completing it textures, POF data, and tables - we would have to consider that the public as a whole know. I would assume SWC's players to know the very basics of SW (What's and X-wing? Who do they normally shoot? etc.) This does not assume any knowledge of the Yuuzhan Vong, and what happened decades after the movies.

[Scourge of Ages]

I remember learning about Star Wars canon some time ago, I forget where and when. "Offical" canon is: The movies are "true" canon, followed by the novelizations of the movies, followed by the radio plays. I would assume that after that are the regular novels and games. I think we can all agree that the novels and games do not really adhere stricktly to each other.

[TopAce]

What you mean by "'true' canon" is called G-canon: the movies and anything Lucas himself says. Novels and games are also canon, except that when there is a conflict in consistency, the movies are to be preferred over the EU. This does not include the existence of the Yuuzhan Vong since there is nothing in the movies that contradict it, and Lucas said nothing to decanonize it.

[maje]

One thing I wonder though is how come on the shiplist, there are virtually no prequel craft to speak of (barring the CR70).  I'm sure that there were ships from that era still around such as Venators, Acclimators, Theta-class shuttles, Trade Federation Battleships (the  few donut ships that survived the Clone Wars that is).  I mean, there's only an 18 year difference between the end of the Battle of Coruscant (CW), and the Battle of Yavin (GCW), so you'd think that this tech wouldn't just up and disappear.  Heck, some of the Rebel Fleet is made up of old CW era ships (according to several comics), and then there's still a whole bunch of anonymous craft in escorting the Medical Frigate at the end of ESB (in the background, not the CR90s, Medium Transports, X-wings or Y-wings).

Do people just hate the prequels that much to the point of hating the new ship designs as well?

[BS403]

from what I understand If they weren't in the movies, they aren't going to be put in SWC initially

[Turambar]

Do people just hate the prequels that much to the point of hating the new ship designs as well?

i certainly do.  the arc-170 is a piece of ****


did you notice that there were no dreadnoughts, victory destroyers, z-95s or y-wings in the prequels?

[jr2]

Do people just hate the prequels that much to the point of hating the new ship designs as well?

That's what I wonder.  Hate the storyline / bad plot / contradiction?  OK, whatever.  I might even agree with you.  But you can't say the ships aren't cool. 

[maje]

If memory serves correct I believe that there were a few Victory-Aces and Dreadnaughts in the ROTS novelization, but not many.  Quite arguably, the Z-95 Headhunter does NOT have roots in the Republic military, nor does the Y-wing.  The Z-95 was manufactured under no single client, so Incom/Subpro sold this ship to many different groups and governments.  Also, depending on what version of the Z-95, you wouldn't see any space combat versions until the Mark IIs (Mark Is were atmospheric fighters originally).  While it is true that the Z-95 existed in form or another for at least several decades earning its place as the most widely proliferated fighter, that doesn't mean it would be in use by the Republic, as major militaries prefer to keep thier craft unique if possible.

As for the Y-wings, most of those wound up in Rebellion hands and may have only started production in small numbers initially.

I could be wrong, and though I would have preferred to have at least seen TIE Fighters in place of the V-wings (as originally planned), I have nothing against the ship designs themselves (though Naboo aesthetic has always seemed a bit too flashy when compared to the beat up ships that we're used to).

[brandx0]

The reason you see a lack of prequel era ships in the shiplist is because this is not a prequel based mod.  We're planning our shiplist and game design around the original trilogy.  That's not to say that the game will never include prequel era ships at all.  I'd love to flesh out the rebel fleet a bit with some separatist ships (apparently, according to C-Canon, they did have a few leftovers from the clone wars that they used)  But if you look at the priority design, it's pretty well explained in there (see the shiplist thread for more details)

[maje]

brandx0, I know this isn't a prequel-based mod, what I was curious about is the lack of ships that survived the Clone Wars well into the Galactic Civil War such as the Acclimator-class or even some of the civilian transports and freighters.  Slave I and the Millenium Falcon are still aroud.  Hell, Dreadnaught heavy cruisers still see active service in remote sections of the Empire and they've been around before Episode I.

I understand that not all prequel-era ships would fit into any coherent storyline set within the GCW.  It's not like you're going to see the Royal Naboo Queen's ship from Episode I because that was retired and was a one-in-a kind vessel.  The Sith Infiltrator was an old Republic Sienar Systems Armed Courier prototype whose project was canned.

Sorry, I hope this clears up any confusion.

[Turambar]

I don't recall seeing any Acclamator-class cruisers in the OT, nor do I recall reading about them in the X-wing series, any of the Thrawn books, the Black Fleet crisis, any of the Bounty Hunter Wars novels, any of the "Tales" series, or any of the Jedi Academy books, not even in those Young Jedi Knights books.

why would they be in this game?


also, I recall Slave I having a different history before it was repainted and stuck into the prequels to make Boba Fett noob fanboys happy.

as for the falcon, well, wasnt that just an easter egg in RotS?

[Scourge of Ages]

If I understand correctly, the point is to first make the ships that will be used most, followed by the ships that people want to see most, and then the ships that fill out the last 5% of the Rebellion, Imperial, and Independent fleets. That would mean leaving most of the prequel ships until after the mod has been released initially.

[harvey032186]

 Makes perfect sense to me. In time, I imagine this will turn into Warlords for HW2 (nearly every ship in existence) just for the sake of variety. But there still has to be a prioritization. What is the "base" time frame of the mod? What are the "Base" most important ships to make that time frame work? It'll all get in there eventually, even if yet ANOTHER mod team takes it up and adds them. Those who want to use them can, those who don't want to don't have to. Everybody's happy. It's just not gonna happen in a day

[Titan]

You know, lucas really should've included things from the novels in teh prequels. things like the insane clonemaster references in thrawn are ok, but he could've at least used dreadnaughts (AWESOME LOOKING SHIP) instead of those stupid venators, AKA SDs with racing stripes and holes cut in them.

[Flaser]

I think the whole problem with the prequels centers around the fact, that Lucas is in fact a very good set designer; but a poor script writer - and was given utter and full control of the new films with little quality control....or "too much" quality control.

There are way too many cameo appearances, way too many flashy sequences with little time for acting, real drama (falling to the dark side? come on, Machbeth did it a hell lot better). What the studios were consered with was getting another cash cow and milking it for all its worth, not in building the SW universe.

They put a man in full control, who himself admitted that he has his fallings as a director, and downright underlined that he can't write a script at all.

Don't believe me? Check out the special edition of THX1138 where all of this was said and outlined.

Back on the core of the topic:

As is the prequels can't stand on their own. Phantom Menance is an attrocity, while Attack of the Clones is an action flick with only whispers of the classic adventure shining through. Revenge of the Sith is finally something worthwhile but most people can't help but woe the missed opportunities: Griveous, the fall of Anakin, the stupid sequences with the droids etc. etc.

However there is another SW canon out there - though of lesser precedence than the films according to the "official canon guide": the SW comics published by Dark Horse.

DH IMHO has singlehandedly managed to salvage the whole era. Though I'm still have mixed feeling about the PM setting (way too many and way too sanctimonious jedi), from the Clone Wars and onwards they have managed to create a really captivating and fleshed out continuity with the classic trilogy.

When you add in the latest books from Karen Traviss about the Republic Commando/Clones you even get something definitly different but altogether undeniable SW in there, that's finally bringing something new to the overall picture like Zahn did with the Thrawn books or Stackpole did with the X-Wing series.

So I wouldn't be that adamant in offhandedly denying anything prequel. I'm a harsh critique of the prequel films too, but there's more to the era than the films itself with some really talented people working on the media, who themselves tried to address the problems our whole lot like to woe about.

Bottomline:

It's good to stick to the original source, the original feeling. It's even better to bring something new to the SW gaming...but don't forget that from time to time the magic was rekindled (like Bioware did with KOTOR).
My closing line is all in its due time, you yourself may find a piece of the Clone Wars or the Old Republic that's close to your heart if you let it give a chance. When the time comes you may feel inclined to connect the SWC with that part.