[Ghostavo]

The entirety of the Old Testament is meant as an example to how incompatible with sin God is.  Where it exists, it must be eliminated.  When Sin happens, something has to die.  This is illustrated throughout, whether it's public execution, atonement sacrifice in the Temple, or whatever.  Until Christ came.  He was the final, ultimate sacrifice, the end-all for death as a result of sin.  He changed the causality of Sin=Death.  So that no longer applies, not because Christ made it no longer true, but because he fulfilled it ultimately and entirely.

Okay, a few from the New Testament then...

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.-- Matthew 10:34-36

[karajorma]

The entirety of the Old Testament is meant as an example to how incompatible with sin God is.  Where it exists, it must be eliminated.  When Sin happens, something has to die.  This is illustrated throughout, whether it's public execution, atonement sacrifice in the Temple, or whatever.  Until Christ came.  He was the final, ultimate sacrifice, the end-all for death as a result of sin.  He changed the causality of Sin=Death.  So that no longer applies, not because Christ made it no longer true, but because he fulfilled it ultimately and entirely.

You might have a point there if it weren't for the fact that Jesus himself said that you should stone disobedient children.

So are you saying that everything Jesus said before he died is similarly void too?

[jr2]

Deuteronomy 21:
 18A father and a mother may have a stubborn and rebellious son who refuses to obey them even after he has been punished. 19If a son is like that, his parents must drag him to the town gate, where the leaders of the town hold their meetings. 20The parents will tell the leaders, " This son of ours is stubborn and never obeys. He spends all his time drinking and partying."

    21The men of the town will stone that son to death, because they must get rid of the evil he brought into the community. Everyone in Israel will be afraid when they hear how he was punished.

Well, consider this:  Back then, you had the manifestation of God visible with your bare eyes in the center of your camp.  And you still want to rebel?  OK.  And note that it said even after he was punished.

Oh, and let's have a little context here:

Matthew 10:16-36
16I am sending you like lambs into a pack of wolves. So be as wise as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17Watch out for people who will take you to court and have you beaten in their meeting places. 18Because of me, you will be dragged before rulers and kings to tell them and the Gentiles about your faith. 19But when someone arrests you, don't worry about what you will say or how you will say it. At that time you will be given the words to say. 20But you will not really be the one speaking. The Spirit from your Father will tell you what to say.

    21Brothers and sisters will betray one another and have each other put to death. Parents will betray their own children, and children will turn against their parents and have them killed. 22Everyone will hate you because of me. But if you remain faithful until the end, you will be saved. 23When people mistreat you in one town, hurry to another one. I promise you that before you have gone to all the towns of Israel, the Son of Man will come.

    24Disciples are not better than their teacher, and slaves are not better than their master. 25It is enough for disciples to be like their teacher and for slaves to be like their master. If people call the head of the family Satan, what will they say about the rest of the family?

   
The One To Fear
(Luke 12.2-7)
 26Don't be afraid of anyone! Everything that is hidden will be found out, and every secret will be known. 27Whatever I say to you in the dark, you must tell in the light. And you must announce from the housetops whatever I have whispered to you. 28Don't be afraid of people. They can kill you, but they cannot harm your soul. Instead, you should fear God who can destroy both your body and your soul in hell. 29Aren't two sparrows sold for only a penny? But your Father knows when any one of them falls to the ground. 30Even the hairs on your head are counted. 31So don't be afraid! You are worth much more than many sparrows.

   
Telling Others about Christ
(Luke 12.8,9)
 32If you tell others that you belong to me, I will tell my Father in heaven that you are my followers. 33But if you reject me, I will tell my Father in heaven that you don't belong to me.

   
Not Peace, but Trouble
(Luke 12.51-53; 14.26,27)
 34Don't think that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came to bring trouble, not peace. 35I came to turn sons against their fathers, daughters against their mothers, and daughters-in-law against their mothers-in-law. 36Your worst enemies will be in your own family.

[G0atmaster]

Where does Jesus talk about anyone being stoned?  The only thing I remember reading about that he said about stoning people was that "the one among you who is without sin should cast the first stone."

[jr2]

Well, as God incarnate, the three in one, God = Jesus = Holy Spirit  ... In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God

John 1:1-17 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)

John 1
 1IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God [b]Himself.(A)

    2He was present originally with God.

    3All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.

    4In Him was Life, and the Life was the Light of men.

    5And the Light shines on in the darkness, for the darkness has never overpowered it [put it out or absorbed it or appropriated it, and is unreceptive to it].

    6There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.(B)

    7This man came to witness, that he might testify of the Light, that all men might believe in it [adhere to it, trust it, and rely upon it] through him.

    8He was not the Light himself, but came that he might bear witness regarding the Light.

    9There it was--the true Light [was then] coming into the world [the genuine, perfect, steadfast Light] that illumines every person.(C)

    10He came into the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him [did not know Him].

    11He came to that which belonged to Him [to His own--His domain, creation, things, world], and they who were His own did not receive Him and did not welcome Him.

    12But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name--(D)

    13Who owe their birth neither to [c]bloods nor to the will of the flesh [that of physical impulse] nor to the will of man [that of a natural father], but to God. [They are born of God!]

    14And the Word (Christ) became flesh (human, incarnate) and tabernacled (fixed His tent of flesh, lived awhile) among us; and we [actually] saw His glory (His honor, His majesty), such glory as an only begotten son receives from his father, full of grace (favor, loving-kindness) and truth.(E)

    15John testified about Him and cried out, This was He of Whom I said, He Who comes after me has priority over me, for He was before me. [He takes rank above me, for He existed before I did. He has advanced before me, because He is my Chief.]

    16For out of His fullness (abundance) we have all received [all had a share and we were all supplied with] one grace after another and spiritual blessing upon spiritual blessing and even favor upon favor and gift [heaped] upon gift.

    17For while the Law was given through Moses, grace ([d]unearned, undeserved favor and spiritual blessing) and truth came through Jesus Christ.(F)

   

Footnotes:

   1. John 1:1 In John's vision (Rev. 19), he sees Christ returning as Warrior-Messiah-King, and "the title by which He is called is The Word of God... and Lord of lords" (Rev. 19:13, 16).
   2. John 1:1 Charles B. Williams, The New Testament: A Translation in the Language of the People: "God" appears first in the Greek word order in this phrase, denoting emphasis--so "God Himself."
   3. John 1:13 Literal translation.
   4. John 1:17 Richard Trench, Synonyms of the New Testament.

[TrashMan]

You might have a point there if it weren't for the fact that Jesus himself said that you should stone disobedient children.
So are you saying that everything Jesus said before he died is similarly void too?

Where the hell do you get that from???

You should learn to read between the lines.

[G0atmaster]

that's what I said.  Except, what do you mean by reading between the lines on that one?

[karajorma]

Actually that one is my bad. I remember Jesus actually saying something about stoning disobedient children but it appears he was being sarcastic at the time.

But just to be clear on this. Any laws from the old testament is null and void unless restated in the new testament, right?

[TrashMan]

There are only two laws and nothing is above them.
The famous:

1 Love God with all your mind, all your heart and all your soul.
2. Love thy neighbour with all your mind, all your heart and all your soul.

Anything that contradicts this is null and void. Simple.

Oh, take the old testament with a little bit of salt. It has been carried over verbally for some time before being written down, so I doubt it's 100% the word of God.

[karajorma]

Sorry but I don't see any reason to be anti-gay in those two so either you're missing at least one law or breaking the second one.

[Mefustae]

Sorry but I don't see any reason to be anti-gay in those two so either you're missing at least one law or breaking the second one.

That's because TrashMan left out a little bit when he was stating the rules:

There are only two laws and nothing is above them.
The famous:

1 Love God with all your mind, all your heart and all your soul.*
2. Love thy neighbour with all your mind, all your heart and all your soul.*

*God's Love™ is not applicable to Homosexuals, Arabs, Atheists, Non-Christians, or in the state of California

Anything that contradicts this is null and void. Simple.

[G0atmaster]

In other words, Mefustae, God's love is not applicable to those who don't accept it.

I believe that whatever lifestyle a person leads, while it is somewhat indicative of a person's heart, the heart is indeed only fully visible to God, and He makes the final choice.

I wouldn't say there are no rules, they just aren't as important as they used to be.  Instead of salvation/no salvation, it's more like, if you accept Christ's gift you're saved any which way you look at it.  But the more you sin, the more responsibility you have for the man's crucifixion.  And IDK about you, but I do NOT want that weighing much on my chest when I meet the man face to face.  But for sure, we are saved by the Grace of God, and not by things we say/do/don't do.

And Trashman, the only things I consider a bit hazy are those pre-Exodus.  I do believe sodom and gommorah did happen (high sulfur content in the soil in that locale, FYI), but as for the story of Adam and Eve, I believe the most important thing a person can take away from that is not simply the story of our origins, but the story of our fall and banishment from paradise.  But just about every bit of scripture is backed up and corroborated a couple of times over, especially by the Dead Sea scrolls.

FYI I live in the state of California.  And I know the love of God™.

Karajorma, I believe loving God includes doing your best to live up to His standards, which are none less than utter and total perfection.

[Hazaanko]

Oh man... I just recently started taking Lunesta - this sleep aid thing...  Reading all these posts about religion and philosophy.... the screen looks like an ocean.  I'm tripping out man.

[Mefustae]

In other words, Mefustae, God's love is not applicable to those who don't accept it.

Nice. It doesn't matter what kind of person you are, just who you **** and who you pray to. Awesome.

...and He makes the final choice.

Exactly, it's his way or the highway... to hell, that is. Literally! Thankyou, Lord, for giving humanity such a wealth of choice! We should celebrate that we have been bestowed total freedom to choose whether we suffer eternally or not. Double awesome.

Now do you see the rift between free will and religion. God's Love is universal and complete, but you first need to do what he says to qualify for it. Am I the only one who sees the problem with that!? Why would He give us free will and then condemn us when we dare use it.

[jr2]

Eat from any tree in the Garden | Free Will
Except that one                          | Laws / Rules
If you eat from it, you will die     | Punishment

"I can't eat from that tree!  What kind of free will is that??"  | Mefustae

So you are saying that because lying under oath is illegal and punishable by law, that we do not have free speech?  Think on that a bit.

[Mefustae]

Eat from any tree in the Garden | Free Will
Except that one                          | Laws / Rules
If you eat from it, you will die     | Punishment

"I can't eat from that tree!  What kind of free will is that??"  | Mefustae

So you are saying that because lying under oath is illegal and punishable by law, that we do not have free speech?  Think on that a bit.

Back in the Garden of Eden, that would have been valid. Now, it's a much more complicated matter. We're not dealing with a binary choice like eating from the tree or not, lying under oath or not, etc. Moreover, you're ignoring both the severity and chronological factors here.

A more apt analogy would be: Do you have free speech when you have a list of things you absolutely cannot say under penalty of death? Or even: Is it free speech when you're always under oath?

[TrashMan]

...and He makes the final choice.

Exactly, it's his way or the highway... to hell, that is. Literally! Thankyou, Lord, for giving humanity such a wealth of choice! We should celebrate that we have been bestowed total freedom to choose whether we suffer eternally or not. Double awesome.

Now do you see the rift between free will and religion. God's Love is universal and complete, but you first need to do what he says to qualify for it. Am I the only one who sees the problem with that!? Why would He give us free will and then condemn us when we dare use it.

ERm...no.
God loves all and everyone who is good is saved.
But I see it's the wording it what confuses you.
"Rejecting God" doesn't mean refusing to belive in Him, it means rejecting the essence of what he is - love. Basicly it means acting without love or compassion.

So you can very well not belive in God and think anyone who does a idiot, but if you area good person then your soul will be saved. If not..well
Free will implies choice.... all choice..even the wrong one. But it also implies responsibility for your choices, no?

[TrashMan]

A more apt analogy would be: Do you have free speech when you have a list of things you absolutely cannot say under penalty of death? Or even: Is it free speech when you're always under oath?

Can I walk around and start shouting that WHATEVER I want without punishment?
Every freedom has its limits - i's not absolute. Actions have consequences and we're inteligent enough to predict what those cnsequences will be.

Let's assume I walk around spitting out anti-Jew, anti-black, anti-(everything that isn't me) comments. Technicly we have a freedom of speech, but how long do you think I'll actually have legs to walk around after that? Is that free speech?

So basicly you have freedom, as long you're not hurting someone else with your freedom.

[Mefustae]

So basicly you have freedom, as long you're not hurting someone else with your freedom.

So being gay hurts God? God, an omnipotent, all-powerful being that created the universe, gets hurt when Sean loves Steve.

So, like, gay is God's kryptonite!

[TrashMan]

So being gay hurts God? God, an omnipotent, all-powerful being that created the universe, gets hurt when Sean loves Steve.
So, like, gay is God's kryptonite!

Did I say that? F'course not. Nothing can hurt God...at least not physicly.

People are born gay and God loves everyone.
If that gay in question is a good person - heaven. Simple as that. Alltough I'm not sure if he'll get the 5 star treatment