I said peaceful. I didn't say without conflict, merely without conflict of magnitude. You see, aggression is not needed for conflict, but aggression most definitely is needed for war. If we can disagree without breaking out in a flame war, that ought to further support our claims, am I right?
Swantz: No, my mom was raised catholic but is presently an atheist. My step-dad's the same. My dad was raised catholic as well, but is more of a pantheist/do what works for you type that sometimes attends catholic mass. I don't live in a "religious" town, frankly I don't even know there is such a thing outside of the Vatican City and the Amish country. Depends on what you mean by "religious rhetoric." I go to church, but I make sure what my pastor tells me is backed up by the Word of God. My pastor is not the chief piloting force in my walk with God. Yes, I am sure I'm right, but I wouldn't call it self-anything. My belief doesn't come from myself in any way except that God's existence is evident simply because of certain events in my life. I would not be a Christian today if it were not for these things playing out in exactly the right way at exactly the right time, and with the sheer number of events that took place to lead me to where I am today, the possibility that it is all some accident, just one big coincidence is incredibly miniscule next to the possibility of a guiding, divine force guiding my life. This belief is also backed up by much of the natural world. There are SO MANY things, just plain oddball things, in the way some things work one way, and another in others, which science has revealed to us, which point directly to God. Water has to behave EXACTLY the way it does or life is not possible. Electrons have to behave EXACTLY as they do, or life is not possible. Did you know that water, a substance that weighs approximately 18 AMUs, exists as a liquid at room temperature, CO2 weighs 44 AMUs. Yet, water, the heavier substance, exists as a liquid at room temp, whereas CO2 exists as a gas. If this were not possible, blood would be impossible. If water did not arrange the crystalline structure it does when it freezes, as many other molecules do not, even polar ones, it would not float as it freezes. If this were to be the case, life as we know it would not be possible.
So assuming that, statistically speaking, a creator is FAR more likely to be the driving force behind life than a coincidental series of events, and such a force has been evident in my life, I can only assume that one such being would guide me to Himself, as He has. I can give you the full, detailed story of every way that God has influenced my life if you want, but sadly, it takes up WAY more room than even this post will, and will probably bore most people who read it before they're halfway done.
Karajorma, as far as Christianity permitting anything as long as it's followed up by repentance, I don't call that Love, I call that taking advantage of someone's sacrifice, which I assure you, has NO place in God's kingdom. I see what you're getting at, but your argument is flawed, because the Bible itself directly speaks out against this behavior. Where is this the case in the doctrine of reincarnation?
Mefustae:
Okay, let's stay with that analogy for a second. You have a gift, I don't know what it is but you're telling me that it's incredibly good. You want to give me the gift, but the problem is that i'm already holding a gift that I believe to be really cool. I can only hold one gift at a time, so I need to discard the gift I have right now and take you at your word that your gift is of equal or greater value. You may be giving me the gift for free, but I have to sacrifice something to receive it. Therefore, the gift is not truly free on my end.
Seeing as you seem to have completely ignored my point from my previous post: Christianity ain't the only religion in the world, and in accepting the love of God you must let go of any faith you may have for any other belief system. In many cases, that belief system will be entwined with cultural aspects of your life, which it seems as though you must give up just to receive this "free" gift. See what I mean?
while it is true that you do need to let go of other... things, other ways of life, other religions, other belief structures, leave all and follow God, in other words, I say "you must let go of that money before I can give you my million dollars," in keeping with our analogy, are you really losing anything when you find out all the money you're holding onto so tightly is counterfeit? How hard is it to let go of nothing in order to gain something infinitely good? Yes, you believe your $1,000,000 is good and real, and you only have my word that my thing is better, but if, in fact, your $1,000,000 is counterfeit, you lose nothing by burning it and taking my gift of a real million. So you lose a wad of paper and gain a ton of cash. What a heavy toll!
See Kara's post for what's wrong with this picture. Honestly, how can you not see a problem with this? God doesn't care how you live or treat your fellow man; all He cares about is whether or not you're on His side. What a jerk!
It's not a matter of whether or not you're on His side. It matters whether or not you accept His sacrifice. His gift.
A side note: TrashMan, a good, atheistic man who has some imperfection who has heard the Word of God and has not accepted it will NOT find his own way into Heaven.
John 14:6 "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Ephesians 2:4-9 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
I do care to change your mind, but only because what you say is contrary to the Bible. Yes God is just. But His law says that where Sin is, Death will follow. If this is the case, any sinful man (FYI ALL people except Christ) deserve death. Christ offers to take this from us, however. That is the ONLY way Man can avoid death.
But then why do Christians still commit crimes? Is it because they know full well that God only requires their allegiance to get into Heaven? What could it be? If believing in God makes you a good person, then why do we have all these supposedly good people acting like dicks? As such, why would a population entirely composed of people like this be any better than the hodgepodge of religions and beliefs that make up the world today?
There are many reasons. People forget what God's all about. People twist Scripture in their own minds and in the minds of others. One could even sanely make the argument that no true Christian would commit a crime, except in a case where the Law goes against God. The truth is, we are still works in progress. I for one, don't believe perfection will come to Man until the day we die, or the second coming of Christ, whichever comes first.
What, so murder is fine as long as you keep faith in God the whole time? Rape is acceptable as long as you don't use the Lord's name in vain when you come? No, of course not. There are rules, and there are regulations. To say it's only "believe in him and don't blaspheme him" is like saying that "don't be a dick" is the only law in society. It's not totally incorrect to say that, but you're also not saying a whole lot.
It's not about faith at all, it's about love! How many times do I need to say, LOVE the Lord your God, and Love your neighbor as yourself! LOVE LOVE LOVE! Faith, prophetic gifts, musical talents, all things which can be used to serve God in some form or another, are NOTHING without Love. Paul talks about this in 1 Corinthians 13. Love must be the single greatest driving force. Love is what motivated Christ to die on the cross. The Law is nothing without Love. Now where do you begin with Love, and where do you end? You say there's stuff I'm not telling you. Do you want me to spell out all the different ways you can love a spouse/girlfriend/significant other as well?
Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?" Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
The holy spirit is a wanker.
Now I've said that I can tell the Jehovah's Witnesses who knock on my door that I'm past saving. Cool!
Yes, you can also print it out as evidence, take it with you to the Throne of God, and say it to His face when you meet Him. And I'll be sad, because I couldn't hang out on the far side of Eternity with someone as cool as you.
Except that there's a major difference. Religion dictates "you're wrong, we're right", whereas atheism is more "you're wrong, deal with it".
Except, Atheism has the ultimate payout of either never knowing you were right, because the point where you find out you cease to exist, or an "Oh crap, I'm wrong!" as your not-so-famous last words. Sorry, not for me.
Also, we have not proven that an entirely Christian society would be as prone to conflict as we are now. First of all, the question was, "would the world be a better place?" and the answer is "yes." Our little "conflict" is a completely non-violent one, completely void of hatred or anger or malice of any kind, and, more likely than not, because one of the said "dis-agreers" was more likely than not slightly misinformed.
Your turn.
