Dang, I haven't been able to keep up with the last couple pages very well. I post very early morning, leave for school, get home and there's like 30 replies! Dang! Let's see here...
Kara (in response to your first post after the top of page 15): God is not a great big something from nothing. There was never any nothing. Ever. God existed for as long as existence existed. God simply is. He did not become, He did not appear. He always was, is and will forever be. I do not say that if we find out everything we will have no need for God. I'm saying if we stayed with God from the beginning, we would never have had any reason to find out everything in the first place. If we find out everything, then it will indeed be proven to be true that man does have need of God. That is a vastly-denied law of nature, just as much as Aerodynamics, or Motion, or Conservation laws.
Mefustae (next post):
Blimey, what have I set in motion!? 
In short, the revelation and explanation of the greatest love story ever played out, in a way you can hopefully understand and respect, and on some level, relate to.
Karajorma: That is absolutely not true at all! For your example, I say God did open the sky and make it rain. I could go into further detail if I so desired, or if my audience so desired, and explain how God designed the molecule made up of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom, which combine in such a way that they have an extra pair of electrons, which force the other electrons, those that bond said atoms together, into a bent shape that allows for an incredible degree of polarity with a significant dipole moment. This allows water to be a liquid at certain temperatures where heavier molecules are not, thus allowing for such molecules to precipitate in the absence of a certain degree of pressure, and clump together in droplets that gravity then prevails over to bring said water back to the ground, which is what we call rain. And in doing so, we have a perfect, in-depth look at how rain is created, and I don't need to omit the fact that God Himself designed water molecules to function this way, that God devised the fact that opposites attract and alikes repel, that God decided that matter should attract other matter, thus creating a substantial gravitational pull when a large concentration of mass is in one place.
I know of the particles you've mention, and have actually seen them individually (electron microscopes are really cool, btw). I've detected the gravitational and electromagnetic forces you've mentioned in a physics course I did last semester. I've studied the varying things rain does, how it does it, and why. However, i'm yet to see this "God particle" you've mentioned. Is it an electromagnetic force like gravity? Or is it the possible force behind "dark energy", the theorized force that keeps the universe expanding. If so, then could you point me towards the published papers on the subject?
First of all, I seriously doubt you've seen sub-atomic particles. Even electron microscopes can't see that level. That's off-topic though. I never mentioned a "God particle." God is the author of particles. If, when the LHC at Cern comes on line, the
Higgs Boson (a super-dense particle that is believed to have created matter itself) is found to exist, I would say that this is the force by which God authored our universe. Also somewhat off-topic. My point is, rather than a so-called "God Particle," I'm saying that the process which these particles that make up matter go through to bring us this thing called a universe, and existence, the incredibly precise, wondrous way these particles interact, is authored by God Himself. Hopefully this quote from a favorite song of mine will shed some more light on it: From "Missing" by Olivia the Band:
The growing grass, the blowing wind, the shooting stars you see
If you look close enough you'll notice that they're all written by me
God is not the process, He devised it.
Like I said, I believe science points all the more to God, not away from Him.
I disagree with you, but I respect your conclusion. And might I just add that it's awesome that you've kept your wits about you and stayed the hell away from Intelligent Design. Too bad a lot more Christians aren't like you.
Oh believe me, I'm no disclaimer of Intelligent Design. I just believe it's insignificant next to the fall of Man, the sacrifice of Christ to redeem Man, and the love God showed in 1. creating Man in the first place, and 2. suffering to redeem us and allow us to clean the slate, so we may once again stand before Him and not be destroyed by our own wickedness. I also believe that the prime function of the first two chapters of Genesis, actually the whole of the Old Testament in fact, rather than to explain how we came to be (while true, it is of secondary, even tertiary importance), is to explain how Man fell from glory, and why we desperately need the cleansing blood of the Lamb.
The question of how is still just as important as ever. For that matter, so is knowledge itself. To which I say, who needs knowledge to come up with cures for disease when disease didn't exist? I ask the question, what are we doing with this knowledge? We are trying to make better lives for ourselves. Why are we doing this? Because life sucks right now. People die. Diseases are a reality. Age is an inescapable thing. People start the process of dying from the moment they are concieved. If this were not the case, such knowledge would be a mad waste of time. It would be completely unnecessary. This is a perfect example of man trying to find something to replace God. Himself.
I don't suppose you could clear up what you mean here? Not sure of the point you're making, but i'd like to take a crack at discussing it.
The thing I am getting at here is that Man's original sin, the thing that got us kicked out of paradise, was the delusion that we could be just as good as God, that we could possibly not need God anymore. and I quote:
f you can explain everything without God then you don't need God at all.
This kind of blasphemy is the destroyer of souls. It is by this thought process that Man arrived at the wretched place He is in at this very moment. By this thought alone, death was allowed to enter the world. By this thought alone, Man was kicked out of Eden, and because of this mentality, Christ was crucified. Society today is governed by the idea that "I am as good as he!" But no one who says this actually believes it. You never hear the rich man say this of the beggar. It's made only by those who feel themselves some what inferior, and it expresses the fact that they refuse to accept that, and therefore, resentsit. It makes people resent any kind of superiority in others anywhere. They even begin to suspect others of feeling superior to them. To quote CS Lewis on the subject, "Here's a fellow who says he doesn't like hot dogs- he thinks himself too good for them no doubt." We come up against the inescapable feeling of inferiority when confronted with the idea of God. Thus we run from the idea. A man who cannot let go of his pride cannot stand before God because he simply won't. It's said that the gates of Hell are locked from the inside. I believe this is somewhat true, at least on this level. Karajorma makes a perfect example of this by what he said. "...you don't need God at all." Because, of course, Man is all we ever need to be. We're just as good as God, after all... the Nuclear Bomb shows us that (sarcasm). No, I say men cannot be trusted with the secrets of the Universe. It's for good reason that God didn't want us to touch the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We're too proud for that kind of charge.
I never noticed it before now, but this goes right back to the Garden of Eden. Man ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thinking he could be just like God, that he wouldn't need God anymore. Let me tell you right now that this will never be the case. We simply aren't good enough. This goes back to the original thread topic because, man, without God, will never be capable of creating a utopian society. That is, Heaven on Earth. Man cannot make such a thing. Yet He is trying to with each technological advance he makes. Technology, which would be entirely relevant if Man had not sinned, thus bringing death itself into this world.
Woah! Let's pull over to the side of the arrogance turnpike! Not only is your little paragraph here anti-thought, it's anti-human. All we've accomplished, all we've fought and struggled to achieve, everything we've created with only the sweat and blood of our brow: We did it. We invented the wheel, we constructed thousands of vastly complex written and spoken languages, we've learned what makes us tick and been able to live longer with every generation, we've even been able to shed the confines of this Earth and travel into space! So much we've accomplished, all on our own. Now, if you want to cheapen those monumental achievements by saying we pale in comparison to a Heavenly Spirit, the same God who has done exactly dick for us throughout all recorded human history, that's entirely your choice. But you should keep in mind that in doing so, you're marginalizing how utterly awesome we all are. But then, that's just how it always seems to work: The underlings do all the work, and the Big Boss gets all the credit. 
Again with the pride. Actually, if you look in the first few books of the Old Testament, people used to live lives many times greater than ourselves now. The oldest man on record lived to be approximately 1075 years old, if memory serves. Adam was intended to live forever. Death only became a factor when he screwed up.
This was, admittedly, heard in a comic strip publication, but it'll serve well for the point I'm trying to make: A scientist living many years from now, was feeling particularly puffed-up about a certain research project he'd been working on for years, and had just finished. He went outside, and said to no one in particular, "Ha, we've come so far, we don't even need God anymore!" Suddenly he hears a voice, saying "How's this?" It belonged to God. The man says "Look, you're so great because you made us from dirt, supposedly. Well look here, so can I!" And he reaches down, and picks up a clump of dirt, and begins to work. Seconds later, God speaks again: "Hey! Get your own dirt!" The man leaves, dejected. Yes, we do pale in comparison to God.
If you want to live by the notion that God is the ultimate provider of everything we need, then go live out your own little Garden of Eden and dick around naked in the bush without even the basic knowledge of what plants to eat. That's all the Big Guy has provided for us, He even actively denied our advancement with the whole "Tree of Knowledge" debacle. On the other hand, if you want to live on what humanity has provided you, then continue as you are. Just do me a favor and attribute credit where it's due.
As I said, we cannot be trusted with anything greater. We've proven that already. The mere fact that conflict is the greatest motivation we have for "progress" shows us that. We'll learn how to use our knowledge to destroy each other before we use it to make ourselves better. Or perhaps that's just it. We make
ourselves better before we make society better. Back to pride and competition. It's not about doing better as a species. It's about doing better than
them. If that's anti-human, then I am ashamed to be a member of the human race. I believe that, soon and very soon, humanity's big ego trip will come to a close. And it will most likely be by something we do to ourselves.
About that Garden of Eden bit you stated, Mefustae: If I could, I would. But I am a wretched man not fit to stand in God's presence. And I don't believe I will be perfect this side of eternity.
Next post I will respond to: Swantz's on page 16. The other posts before it I would very much like to respond to, but I can hardly follow them once we started saying God is both complex and simple, and when invisible, peeing giants came into the equation. I do support most of what TrashMan said, though.
Swantz:
Is life's sole purpose life itself, then, according to you? What, then, is your motivation in life? What cause are you willing to die for? What makes being alive worth it?
Living, reproducing, and furthering who we see as our own. Just like every other animal on the planet.
So according to you, nothing sets man apart from any other animal on the planet, aside from opposable thumbs? Why don't the Great Apes have a thriving, advanced civilization like we do? Why do we come up with spiritual ideas if there is no human spirit, no soul?
If right and wrong are truly subjective, we might as well simply throw out the concept entirely. How do you draw a line to determine when murder is acceptable, or thievery, or rape?
We have instincts to protect and treat our fellow man fairly. This is the only way we could have survived as a species. When we were thrown out into the planes of Africa, we had no physical superiority beyond our thumbs. We had to work together as a social group to achieve any degree of survivability, and to work together, we had to be able to treat each other with some degree of respect. So the "me and only me" trait didn't work out to well, and was shaved off. We then formed feelings for revenge. This was essentially an early form of what we call justice. Triggering a revenge mechanism is seen as wrong, while not doing so, isn't.
So you speculate. What evidence do we have that primitive man did any of this?
Anyway, what it seems to me that you are saying then, is that no criminal on Earth should be prosecuted, because from their perspective, they had a darn good reason for what they did. It's OK the insane, psychopathic, environmentalist cult leader blew up the city of LA. He was only trying to save the planet from all the cars there! Is that correct?
In his eyes, he was getting revenge, saving himself and everyone he cared for. On the other hand, he triggered feelings for revenge in many more people than him and his group. He is wrong by majority vote. I'm guessing that after that, the majority would eliminate the minority, serving "justice".
The majority always rules.
So majority determines what is just? That doesn't seem very subjective to me. Not only that, but it goes to show that all of mankind has it hard-coded in them a baseline idea of right and wrong. An objective morality. A conscience. One can ignore it, one can
say they don't have one, but in one moment, they'll be stealing from someone, claiming that they live by a different moral code than their victim, thus their victim's complaints are irrelevant, and in the next moment they'll be telling someone who steals from them that stealing is wrong. CS Lewis has some very good things to say on this subject.
And what of Christ? What do you make of His existence, and the prophecies, and the miracles he preformed, and the resurrection?
There is no definitive proof Christ existed other than the Bible you know.
As TrashMan said, there are other records. Besides that, the Bible is truth enough. Do you have any idea how many testimonies from individuals backed it up? FAR more than enough to convict a man of murder in federal court. "Proof beyond reasonable doubt," I believe the phrase is?
Ghostavo: Except for miracles, God doesn't circumvent ANY rules. He wrote them. He doesn't even circumvent the relationship between Sin and Death.
TrashMan, saying "God did it" is not a simple solution no matter how elegant you try to say it is.
It's like people asking how life began and someone saying "It came from another planet!".
Does it answer the problem? No, it just adds further questions to the problem. Not only does that someone have to explain how life was carried but the first question wasn't answered at all.
By saying "God did it" you not only have to explain how god did it, but still have to explain what he did, further adding questions into a problem that still wasn't solved by saying "God did it".
If you have a problem with Occam's razor, that's fine (sort of...), but looking at where it got us so far I don't see much of a problem with it...
But you see, the Bible has an answer for both. God scooped up dust (the Hebrew word for which is "Adamah," which sounds remarkably like the Hebrew word for Man, "Adam." FYI, it could be seen to mean atoms, molecules, etc.) formed Man from it, and "breathed" life into Man. (notice here also, the Hebrew word for "Breath" is strikingly similar to the words for "soul" and "wind" and "air." Thus one could infer that God gave Man a piece of His own soul, which allows for sentience, intelligence, morality, and a great many other things Humans have that are exhibited by no other species on this big blue marble.) So there you go! That's how life came to be. Again, it matters not in the big scheme of things.
