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Yet even when proven wrong, you still blindly follow the blind man, who himself follows another blind man.

You fail on so many levels that I'm not even going to bother explaining it.

Funny how you should quote something Christ Himself said.

Besides, you don't know him.  Who knows, he may have been homosexual at one point in his life, and may indeed know a thing or two about it.

YOU have no right to assume he doesn't, just because he's a Christian.  I could point out a great many assumptions I have about you right now, but they're all probably unfounded, so I'll leave them out. 

As far as your "someone or something said so" argument... You believe the world is round.  Why?  Because "Someone or something said so."  Get off your high horse.   You're becoming the thing you likely stereotype us as.

EDIT:  The Word of God is the Bible, words written down that have been inspired by God Himself.  All scripture (the Bible) can be taken as such.
Could we with ink the ocean fill, and were the skies of parchment made
Were every stalk on earth a quill, and every man a scribe by trade
To write the love of God above, would drain the ocean dry
Nor could the scroll contain the whole, though stretched from sky to sky!

 

Offline karajorma

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I think that very much supports my belief that science indeed points straight to God.

Even abiogenesis?

As far as your "someone or something said so" argument... You believe the world is round.  Why?  Because "Someone or something said so."  Get off your high horse.   You're becoming the thing you likely stereotype us as.

EDIT:  The Word of God is the Bible, words written down that have been inspired by God Himself.  All scripture (the Bible) can be taken as such.

Are you kidding me? :lol:

The fact that the world is round can be proved without opening that book of which you speak.

Now prove that the bible is the word of God without quoting the bible and you might have a point.
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let's see, a theory whose own author states that the notion of it is completely absurd, which cannot be observed by any single human being, and has not been observed by us anywhere, so basically an idea with no substantial backing of any kind?  I wouldn't call that science, friend.  There isn't even anything related to the scientific method about that.  THAT'S what I would call blind speculation.

My question was not whether or not it could be proved, but rather, have you proven it to yourself without the testimony of another human being?  If not, then why is it such a stretch for us to believe in the Bible?

To answer your challenge, prove it otherwise.  Show me something that says definitively that the remains of Christ have been found and I'll believe He didn't leave His grave.  What law says the burden of proof must be placed on me?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2007, 04:58:18 pm by G0atmaster »
Could we with ink the ocean fill, and were the skies of parchment made
Were every stalk on earth a quill, and every man a scribe by trade
To write the love of God above, would drain the ocean dry
Nor could the scroll contain the whole, though stretched from sky to sky!

 

Offline Scuddie

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Besides, you don't know him.  Who knows, he may have been homosexual at one point in his life, and may indeed know a thing or two about it.
Whether or not a person knows something doesn't have much to do about whether a person experienced it or not.

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YOU have no right to assume he doesn't, just because he's a Christian.  I could point out a great many assumptions I have about you right now, but they're all probably unfounded, so I'll leave them out.
I didn't say he doesn't have the right to insist because he's a christian, I said he doesn't have the right because he doesn't know.  I also didn't say because he is a christian he doesn't know.

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As far as your "someone or something said so" argument... You believe the world is round.  Why?  Because "Someone or something said so."  Get off your high horse.   You're becoming the thing you likely stereotype us as.
I don't believe the world is round because someone else said so, I believe it is round because the massive amount of data regarding it.  I may disagree that the world is round, but it doesn't give me the right to insist that it is flat.

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The Word of God is the Bible, words written down that have been inspired by God Himself.  All scripture (the Bible) can be taken as such.
OK, I would consider that a valid description of The Bible...  So long as you pay attention to the word 'inspired'.  I've known a lot of people who don't understand that Word of God means Word about God, not God's Word.
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Offline karajorma

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let's see, a theory whose own author states that the notion of it is completely absurd, which cannot be observed by any single human being, and has not been observed by us anywhere, so basically an idea with no substantial backing of any kind?  I wouldn't call that science, friend.  There isn't even anything related to the scientific method about that.  THAT'S what I would call blind speculation.

What the **** are you on about? :wtf:

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My question was not whether or not it could be proved, my question was, have you proven it to yourself without the testimony of another human being?  If not, then why is it such a stretch for us to believe in the Bible?

If you follow that logic there is very little you can prove to be true. But the difference is that there are living people who have seen Earth from space. There are no living people who have talked to Jesus (well at least not any that have heard him physically answer (well none who you'd believe anyway)) so the only evidence is a book.

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To answer your challenge, prove it otherwise.  Show me something that says definitively that the remains of Christ have been found and I'll believe He didn't leave His grave.  What law says the burden of proof must be placed on me?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

If you want to say I have to prove you wrong then what about the Hindu that says "Prove ME wrong." or the Sikh or the Muslim or the Buddhist. I can't prove any of them wrong yet some or all of them must be wrong. The only logical answer is to say you must prove yourself correct or else your claim has no validity.

Otherwise by your own argument the other religions are just as right as you are.
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Besides, you don't know him.  Who knows, he may have been homosexual at one point in his life, and may indeed know a thing or two about it.
Whether or not a person knows something doesn't have much to do about whether a person experienced it or not.

You're right.  I was saying that he may have experienced it, therefore may know a thing or two about it from experience.

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YOU have no right to assume he doesn't, just because he's a Christian.  I could point out a great many assumptions I have about you right now, but they're all probably unfounded, so I'll leave them out.
I didn't say he doesn't have the right to insist because he's a christian, I said he doesn't have the right because he doesn't know.  I also didn't say because he is a christian he doesn't know.
  Oh my bad, you said being a Christian he has even less of a right because he breaks the first commandment.  Let's see, "You shall have no other gods before me."  How does that violate THAT?  My point was:  How do you know he doesn't know?


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As far as your "someone or something said so" argument... You believe the world is round.  Why?  Because "Someone or something said so."  Get off your high horse.   You're becoming the thing you likely stereotype us as.
I don't believe the world is round because someone else said so, I believe it is round because the massive amount of data regarding it.  I may disagree that the world is round, but it doesn't give me the right to insist that it is flat.
OK, so because quite a few somethings or someones said it, you believe the world is round.  Same with the Bible.  The same can be said about Antarctica.  How do you know there is a frozen tundra on the southernmost portion of the planet if you've never been there? 

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The Word of God is the Bible, words written down that have been inspired by God Himself.  All scripture (the Bible) can be taken as such.
OK, I would consider that a valid description of The Bible...  So long as you pay attention to the word 'inspired'.  I've known a lot of people who don't understand that Word of God means Word about God, not God's Word.

Wrong. 
Quote
2 Timothy 3:16-17: All Scripture is God-breathed[/u] and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Could we with ink the ocean fill, and were the skies of parchment made
Were every stalk on earth a quill, and every man a scribe by trade
To write the love of God above, would drain the ocean dry
Nor could the scroll contain the whole, though stretched from sky to sky!

 
let's see, a theory whose own author states that the notion of it is completely absurd, which cannot be observed by any single human being, and has not been observed by us anywhere, so basically an idea with no substantial backing of any kind?  I wouldn't call that science, friend.  There isn't even anything related to the scientific method about that.  THAT'S what I would call blind speculation.

What the **** are you on about? :wtf:

Go google what Charles Darwin had to say about the human eye.  Also, when did you last see a species give birth to a completely different species?  This is the claim that abiogenesis makes, isn't it?  That a couple chemicals combined just right to form the RNA of the first one-celled bacteria, which eventually evolved into all the life we have today?

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My question was not whether or not it could be proved, my question was, have you proven it to yourself without the testimony of another human being?  If not, then why is it such a stretch for us to believe in the Bible?

If you follow that logic there is very little you can prove to be true. But the difference is that there are living people who have seen Earth from space. There are no living people who have talked to Jesus (well at least not any that have heard him physically answer (well none who you'd believe anyway)) so the only evidence is a book.

Your only evidence about a lot of things is simply a book.  Is there anyone alive today who had a conversation with, say, Galileo?  How then, do we know he lived?  Your reasoning is flawed.  My point was that darn near everything in life takes some degree of faith and trust.  Why is it such a stretch to trust what was said about God and Jesus and not Leonardo and Galileo and Copernicus and even Einstein?

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To answer your challenge, prove it otherwise.  Show me something that says definitively that the remains of Christ have been found and I'll believe He didn't leave His grave.  What law says the burden of proof must be placed on me?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

If you want to say I have to prove you wrong then what about the Hindu that says "Prove ME wrong." or the Sikh or the Muslim or the Buddhist. I can't prove any of them wrong yet some or all of them must be wrong. The only logical answer is to say you must prove yourself correct or else your claim has no validity.

Otherwise by your own argument the other religions are just as right as you are.

Proof has been put forth to the same degree to equally extraordinary scientific fact, yet everyone considered "intelligent" takes it as fact.  Why is Jesus so different?

Edit: Sorry for double-posting.
Could we with ink the ocean fill, and were the skies of parchment made
Were every stalk on earth a quill, and every man a scribe by trade
To write the love of God above, would drain the ocean dry
Nor could the scroll contain the whole, though stretched from sky to sky!

 
On Evolution:

Go google what Charles Darwin had to say about the human eye. 

Do you know what he said? Becuase I know the part you're talking about and it has been famously dishonestly quote mined where they omit the relevant proceeding sentences. Are you sure you want to dig that up?
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Also, when did you last see a species give birth to a completely different species? 

1. We have hundreds of examples of speciation in both in the lab and in nature. But we both know you wont accept them, because when you say "species", you really mean "kind". A term that is never ever defined by Creationists. Its just a way they can move the goal posts back whenever they like. Creationists like using scientific terms and changing their definitions to suit them.

2. No one says one species will "give birth to" a "completely" different species. The addition of the words "give birth to" and "completely" reveals you are being disingenuous. Evolution never proposes such a thing happening.

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This is the claim that abiogenesis makes, isn't it?


No. Abiogenesis isnt Evolution. Evolution isnt abiogenesis.

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That a couple chemicals combined just right to form the RNA of the first one-celled bacteria, which eventually evolved into all the life we have today?

First you misrepresent Evolution then you claim its abiogenesis which misrepresents that as well, then you say its all the same. I think you need to be more honest or go and learn something about the subjects.

On Homosexuality:

Edward Bradshaw:  Cmon man, you've honestly never heard of anyone making the "Genetic predisposition to violence" argument to explain why they killed someone?  (sarcasm) Seriously, they shouldn't go to jail!  It's in their genes that they HAVE to kill someone, right?  It's not their fault! (sarcasm off)

I snipped the rest of your post because it was just Bible quotes and we are talking about science. You guys are claiming homosexuality is unnatural. That we are gods special creation and given free-will and because of that free will we can choose  to be homosexual or not in the same way one can "choose" to commit theft, adultery, murder etc.

The facts show homosexuality is natural. I asked, I think it was Jr2, what is wrong with homosexuality other than you think it is icky? How does it hurt anyone? Im not talking about what some homosexuals get up to, not all of them are promiscuous. Specifically, how does homosexuality hurt people? We know why theft is wrong, we know why adultery and cheating on your partner is wrong and its self explanatory as to why murder hurts people. But if you're going to continue to compare it to those immoral acts, you'll need to show how they are comparable. And remember, you cant say its unnatural. All you have is the Bible, thats all you have, where god says homosexuals should be put to death and that you think boys kissing boys is icky.



Ed
« Last Edit: November 14, 2007, 06:02:43 pm by Edward Bradshaw »

 

Offline Scuddie

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Oh my bad, you said being a Christian he has even less of a right because he breaks the first commandment.  Let's see, "You shall have no other gods before me."  How does that violate THAT?  My point was:  How do you know he doesn't know?
I've not studied The Bible the same way you have (which is fairly obvious), but I have attended many sermons.  There were some differences in the way the preachers described the first commandment, but the one major theme that they all shared was along the lines of 'There is only one God, and only he has the right of judgment and absolute truth.'  Insisting something is so without any reasoning behind it is a violation of that idea.  Get it now?

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OK, so because quite a few somethings or someones said it, you believe the world is round.  Same with the Bible.  The same can be said about Antarctica.  How do you know there is a frozen tundra on the southernmost portion of the planet if you've never been there?
That's a valid viewpoint, but there is something missing.  The evidence.  The Bible is a document of Faith, not science.  It is merely testimony from many a man, but there is no evidence to support it.  Now that's not to say that makes The Bible false, it just means it cannot be held absolute.  Most (if not all) discoveries were based on faith.  Just like with Christianity, there are believers and non-believers to every quest for truth.  And unless God come today and bring his children home, we cannot know today of his existence.  As for the antarctic, it follows the rules of logic and existence, so I know it to be so.  However, believing that only the established rules of logic and existence are valid is an act of faith.

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Wrong. 
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2 Timothy 3:16-17: All Scripture is God-breathed[/u] and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Interpret and present it any way you choose, but the fact of the matter is that God did not write the many books of the Bible, man did. 
Bunny stole my signature :(.

Sorry boobies.

 

Offline karajorma

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Go google what Charles Darwin had to say about the human eye.


Who gives a **** what Darwin had to say? Science is not a religion. Darwin's words are not sacrosanct. He was completely wrong about certain things (hereditary for instance - since he hadn't read Mendel's work on peas he had no idea about genetics). You can talk about Darwin and what he said until you're blue in the face and no one will give a damn. If you're not talking about modern evolutionary theory you're simply wasting your breath.

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Also, when did you last see a species give birth to a completely different species?

I can point you at scientific papers in which scientists have seen speciation under laboratory conditions if you want. And I'm not just talking about single celled life either. If you're looking for one species giving birth to a different species in one generation though you have no idea how evolution works.

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This is the claim that abiogenesis makes, isn't it?  That a couple chemicals combined just right to form the RNA of the first one-celled bacteria, which eventually evolved into all the life we have today?

No that's not what abiogenesis claims. In fact that would be absurd.

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Your only evidence about a lot of things is simply a book.  Is there anyone alive today who had a conversation with, say, Galileo?  How then, do we know he lived?

It's not a book. It's lots of books. Some written by people in the catholic church who would have no reason to invent Galileo as he was considered to be a heretic.

Now earlier in this thread I asked for other proof of the existence of Jesus other than the bible and the best you could do was to hem and haw while Trashman mentioned that he'd read something about some Romans saying something in a magazine. I very much doubt even that much is true but to claim that it is even remotely close to the level of proof for the existence of Galileo is ridiculous.

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My point was that darn near everything in life takes some degree of faith and trust.  Why is it such a stretch to trust what was said about God and Jesus and not Leonardo and Galileo and Copernicus and even Einstein?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Why don't you believe what was said about Rama? Amaterasu? Buddha?

I've asked you that sort of thing several times and every time you've ducked the question. Funny how your arguments about shifting the burden of proof suddenly become null and void once we start bringing other religions you don't follow into the mix.

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Proof has been put forth to the same degree to equally extraordinary scientific fact, yet everyone considered "intelligent" takes it as fact.

NOTHING in science is taken as a fact. You're already wrong there. But even without that word you are still wrong. You like to claim equivalence between certain scientific theories and the proof of Christ's existence but that's still incorrect. There is NO proof of Christ's existence other than the bible and the apocrypha and even Christians consider the latter suspect.

All scientific theories are based on observable data. In the case of Jesus there is no observable data.
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On Evolution:

Go google what Charles Darwin had to say about the human eye.

Do you know what he said? Becuase I know the part you're talking about and it has been famously dishonestly quote mined where they omit the relevant proceeding sentences. Are you sure you want to dig that up?
Quote
Also, when did you last see a species give birth to a completely different species? 

1. We have hundreds of examples of speciation in both in the lab and in nature. But we both know you wont accept them, because when you say "species", you really mean "kind". A term that is never ever defined by Creationists. Its just a way they can move the goal posts back whenever they like. Creationists like using scientific terms and changing their definitions to suit them.

2. No one says one species will "give birth to" a "completely" different species. The addition of the words "give birth to" and "completely" reveals you are being disingenuous. Evolution never proposes such a thing happening.

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This is the claim that abiogenesis makes, isn't it?


No. Abiogenesis isnt Evolution. Evolution isnt abiogenesis.

Quote
That a couple chemicals combined just right to form the RNA of the first one-celled bacteria, which eventually evolved into all the life we have today?

First you misrepresent Evolution then you claim its abiogenesis which misrepresents that as well, then you say its all the same. I think you need to be more honest or go and learn something about the subjects.

Interesting you should say that, because you give no discription of what you mean by "abiogenesis," then.  I gather it means life from no life.  The most common theory by which that happened is evolution from single-celled organisms.  You call me dishonest, but I was asking you.  I wasn't making statements as if I knew them.  Abiogenesis is a relatively new term for me.  Until a few days ago it wasn't even a part of my vocabulary except via the Greek roots, so forgive me.

On Homosexuality:

Edward Bradshaw:  Cmon man, you've honestly never heard of anyone making the "Genetic predisposition to violence" argument to explain why they killed someone?  (sarcasm) Seriously, they shouldn't go to jail!  It's in their genes that they HAVE to kill someone, right?  It's not their fault! (sarcasm off)

I snipped the rest of your post because it was just Bible quotes and we are talking about science. You guys are claiming homosexuality is unnatural. That we are gods special creation and given free-will and because of that free will we can choose  to be homosexual or not in the same way one can "choose" to commit theft, adultery, murder etc.

The facts show homosexuality is natural. I asked, I think it was Jr2, what is wrong with homosexuality other than you think it is icky? How does it hurt anyone? Im not talking about what some homosexuals get up to, not all of them are promiscuous. Specifically, how does homosexuality hurt people? We know why theft is wrong, we know why adultery and cheating on your partner is wrong and its self explanatory as to why murder hurts people. But if you're going to continue to compare it to those immoral acts, you'll need to show how they are comparable. And remember, you cant say its unnatural. All you have is the Bible, thats all you have, where god says homosexuals should be put to death and that you think boys kissing boys is icky.



Ed

Ed, did you even read the rest of my post?  It's quite relevant to the topic.  Basically it says that people were insistent to go against God's will, so, being the free-will-loving God He is, He let them dive headfirst into their perversions and depravity as part of His wrath.  When someone accepts the gift of Christ, God's wrath is no longer on them, thus they are no longer victims of depraved minds.

In a sense, I guess that means my beliefs on homosexuality are more of, rather than a genetic thing (which has not been proven, btw), it's a spiritual sickness of sorts, only cured by the grace of God.  Just because it's exhibited by many people doesn't make it right.  Just because it's done by animals, doesn't make it right.  Are we to be like animals, then?  No!


You want more than the Bible to say "boys kissing boys is icky?"  I can't do that without my post losing all taste by describing human sexual anatomy and how it's supposed to work.  If that's what you want, I'll go there.  But I think you're a little old for a sex talk. 

How is a genetic predisposition to violence any different from a genetic predisposition to homosexual tendencies? 

The person who gets hurt by this sin is the same who is chiefly hurt by all sin: God Himself.  How is God hurt?  God is perfect.  God cannot stand imperfection to be in His presence.  When we sin, no matter what it is, we are no longer able to stand in God's presence and yet draw breath.  It just doesn't work.  Now, when God, being perfect, says that something is imperfect, we can usually take His word as right, because arguing with Him is like cutting off the tree limb on which you sit.  You think this is absurd?  How then could Christ claim to forgive sins if He were not the chiefly injured party?  That'd be like Joe Schmoe coming up and forgiving me for stealing YOUR car.  It'd be asinine if not true!



Oh my bad, you said being a Christian he has even less of a right because he breaks the first commandment.  Let's see, "You shall have no other gods before me."  How does that violate THAT?  My point was:  How do you know he doesn't know?
I've not studied The Bible the same way you have (which is fairly obvious), but I have attended many sermons.  There were some differences in the way the preachers described the first commandment, but the one major theme that they all shared was along the lines of 'There is only one God, and only he has the right of judgment and absolute truth.'  Insisting something is so without any reasoning behind it is a violation of that idea.  Get it now?

As I said, he may have some reasoning behind it after all.  For all you know, I may have some experience on the subject matter.  The point is, you can't assume we don't.

Oh, and I'd be careful in taking somebody's word over the Bible.  That's how fanaticism and wars and the like happen.

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OK, so because quite a few somethings or someones said it, you believe the world is round.  Same with the Bible.  The same can be said about Antarctica.  How do you know there is a frozen tundra on the southernmost portion of the planet if you've never been there?
That's a valid viewpoint, but there is something missing.  The evidence.  The Bible is a document of Faith, not science.  It is merely testimony from many a man, but there is no evidence to support it.  Now that's not to say that makes The Bible false, it just means it cannot be held absolute.  Most (if not all) discoveries were based on faith.  Just like with Christianity, there are believers and non-believers to every quest for truth.  And unless God come today and bring his children home, we cannot know today of his existence.  As for the antarctic, it follows the rules of logic and existence, so I know it to be so.  However, believing that only the established rules of logic and existence are valid is an act of faith.

CS Lewis responds to this better than I ever could:
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Another possible objection is this.  Why is God landing in this enemy-occupied world in disguise and starting a sort of secret society to undermine the devil? Why is He not landing in force, invading it? Is it that He is not strong enough? Well, Christians think He is going to land in force; we do not know when.  But we can guess why He is delaying.  He wants to give us the chance of joining His side freely.  I do not suppose you and I would have thought much of a Frenchman who waited till the Allies were marching into Germany and then announced he was on our side.  God will invade.  But I wonder whether people who ask God to interfere openly and directly in our world quite realise what it will be like when He does.  When that happens, it is the end of the world.  When the author walks on to the stage the play is over.  God is going to invade, all right: but what is the good of saying you are on His side then, when you see the whole natural universe melting away like a dream and something else-something it never entered your head to conceive-comes crashing in; something so beautiful to some of us and so terrible to others that none of us will have any choice left? For this time it will be God without disguise; something so overwhelming that it will strike either irresistible love or irresistible horror into every creature.  It will be too late then to choose your side. There is no use saying you choose to lie down when it has become impossible to stand up.  That will not be the time for choosing: it will be the time when we discover which side we really have chosen, whether we realised it before or not.  Now, today, this moment, is our chance to choose the right side.  God is holding back to give us that chance.  It will not last for ever. We must take it or leave it.

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Wrong. 
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2 Timothy 3:16-17: All Scripture is God-breathed[/u] and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Interpret and present it any way you choose, but the fact of the matter is that God did not write the many books of the Bible, man did. 

Actually, any way I can possibly interpret or present it, it still says the same thing:  The author of the so-called "Holy Books" is the Spirit of God Himself.  The word for "Air" "Breath" and "Soul" are very similar in Hebrew.  Therefore, any way you look at it, either God spoke the words, or God's Spirit wrote the words.  That is the truth.

Go google what Charles Darwin had to say about the human eye.


Who gives a **** what Darwin had to say? Science is not a religion. Darwin's words are not sacrosanct. He was completely wrong about certain things (hereditary for instance - since he hadn't read Mendel's work on peas he had no idea about genetics). You can talk about Darwin and what he said until you're blue in the face and no one will give a damn. If you're not talking about modern evolutionary theory you're simply wasting your breath.

Why don't you detail modern evolutionary theory for me, so I have a better understanding of what you think it is?  I simply was under the impression that it was heavily based on Darwin's works, particularly "The Origin of Species," and wished to point out that the writer of this theory which modern theory is more or less based on had some things to say about his own ideas.

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Also, when did you last see a species give birth to a completely different species?

I can point you at scientific papers in which scientists have seen speciation under laboratory conditions if you want. And I'm not just talking about single celled life either. If you're looking for one species giving birth to a different species in one generation though you have no idea how evolution works.
I never said in one generation.  I do believe in microevolution, that is, adaptation.  I do not believe, regardless of time, that one species could ultimately change enough to become classified as a completely different species, ESPECIALLY beginning from single-celled organisms, double-especially since such organisms exist today, mainly because change happens due to need, and if the changes NEEDED to happen, the old versions would have died out.

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This is the claim that abiogenesis makes, isn't it?  That a couple chemicals combined just right to form the RNA of the first one-celled bacteria, which eventually evolved into all the life we have today?

No that's not what abiogenesis claims. In fact that would be absurd.

Tell me what it is, then.  Obviously I'm way off-base, and would like to fix that.


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Your only evidence about a lot of things is simply a book.  Is there anyone alive today who had a conversation with, say, Galileo?  How then, do we know he lived?

It's not a book. It's lots of books. Some written by people in the catholic church who would have no reason to invent Galileo as he was considered to be a heretic. 
  Not a book, but lots of books?  That's your argument?  There are four (that's 4, not 1) books in the Bible that are first-hand (or would it be second-hand?  Which is more correct in this context?) accounts of the life of Christ.  That's multiple books.  Beyond that, there are numerous (that's many many) prophecies detailing His life hundreds of years before He was born.  After His life, there were many books written about Him by those that followed Him (the remainder of the New Testament).  If you believe in Galileo Galilee because there were many books written about him, surely this is enough to convince you of the existence of Christ?



Now earlier in this thread I asked for other proof of the existence of Jesus other than the bible and the best you could do was to hem and haw while Trashman mentioned that he'd read something about some Romans saying something in a magazine. I very much doubt even that much is true but to claim that it is even remotely close to the level of proof for the existence of Galileo is ridiculous.

So now you're saying it's indeed based on the amount of proof and not the kind of proof?  Because there's a ton of people in Africa who say AIDS can be cured by raping babies.  I know, my argument here is bordering on absurd.  I'm merely trying to draw a comparison with a very clear-cut example.


Quote
My point was that darn near everything in life takes some degree of faith and trust.  Why is it such a stretch to trust what was said about God and Jesus and not Leonardo and Galileo and Copernicus and even Einstein?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Why don't you believe what was said about Rama? Amaterasu? Buddha?

I've asked you that sort of thing several times and every time you've ducked the question. Funny how your arguments about shifting the burden of proof suddenly become null and void once we start bringing other religions you don't follow into the mix.
  What do you believe now?  What extraordinary proof have you been given that leads you to believe that is true?  Because I tell you, God's given me quite a bit of extraordinary proof, except it only applies to my own life, really.  I've already given you a piece of my life story, though, and you didn't like it very much.


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Proof has been put forth to the same degree to equally extraordinary scientific fact, yet everyone considered "intelligent" takes it as fact.

NOTHING in science is taken as a fact. You're already wrong there. But even without that word you are still wrong. You like to claim equivalence between certain scientific theories and the proof of Christ's existence but that's still incorrect. There is NO proof of Christ's existence other than the bible and the apocrypha and even Christians consider the latter suspect.

All scientific theories are based on observable data. In the case of Jesus there is no observable data.

So basically you're saying there are absolutely no laws of the Universe which science has proven and are taken as fact?  The law of gravity?  The law of conservation of momentum?  The laws of aerodynamics?  None of this is taken as fact?  Many theories, even, are taught as fact today.

To answer your question about other religions:  A god too proud, too high and mighty, too unloving to take me in is hardly worth my time.  Yet that's what my God did.  He made me, I screwed up, and he reached down to lift me up to Him.  My God is mighty, yet humble.  My God graceful and loving.  My God is perfect.  Instead of me trying to climb some ladder of good works to get to God (as in other religions), God comes down and lifts me up.  I don't believe that God will love me because I'm a good boy.  I believe God has and will continue to make me good because He loves me.  To use Lewis's metaphor, the greenhouse does not attract sunlight because it is bright, but is bright because the sun shines on it. 
Could we with ink the ocean fill, and were the skies of parchment made
Were every stalk on earth a quill, and every man a scribe by trade
To write the love of God above, would drain the ocean dry
Nor could the scroll contain the whole, though stretched from sky to sky!

 

Offline Mefustae

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Interesting you should say that, because you give no discription of what you mean by "abiogenesis," then.  I gather it means life from no life.  The most common theory by which that happened is evolution from single-celled organisms.  You call me dishonest, but I was asking you.  I wasn't making statements as if I knew them.  Abiogenesis is a relatively new term for me.  Until a few days ago it wasn't even a part of my vocabulary except via the Greek roots, so forgive me.
He didn't give a description because it's irrelevant to the topic at hand. You brought it up out of nowhere and, while it would be interesting to continue along that thread, it would be best for the current discussion that we talk about abiogenesis at a later date. Several people have made it clear that it is unrelated to the topic at hand, let's leave it at that.

In a sense, I guess that means my beliefs on homosexuality are more of, rather than a genetic thing (which has not been proven, btw), it's a spiritual sickness of sorts, only cured by the grace of God.  Just because it's exhibited by many people doesn't make it right.  Just because it's done by animals, doesn't make it right.  Are we to be like animals, then?  No!
Aside from the fact that we are members of the animal kingdom, the whole "spiritual sickness" thing is kind of unsettling. I don't know, it's just really creepy to have someone put it that way. :wtf:

You want more than the Bible to say "boys kissing boys is icky?"  I can't do that without my post losing all taste by describing human sexual anatomy and how it's supposed to work.  If that's what you want, I'll go there.  But I think you're a little old for a sex talk.

How is a genetic predisposition to violence any different from a genetic predisposition to homosexual tendencies?
Thanks for pointing that out, Captain Obvious. The parts don't fit together in that way. Like trying to put two Legos together using only the knobbly bits on top, it just won't fit. Although I don't really see how that makes it "immoral", whatever that means.

You might say the two genetic predispositions are different because one hurts people, the other doesn't. Let's reiterate; Violence hurts people. It hurts people, people get hurt. Homosexuality... doesn't? Hmm, let's think about this, how does homosexuality hurt people? Quite the conundrum, we've got here.

The person who gets hurt by this sin is the same who is chiefly hurt by all sin: God Himself.  How is God hurt?  God is perfect.  God cannot stand imperfection to be in His presence.  When we sin, no matter what it is, we are no longer able to stand in God's presence and yet draw breath.  It just doesn't work.  Now, when God, being perfect, says that something is imperfect, we can usually take His word as right, because arguing with Him is like cutting off the tree limb on which you sit.  You think this is absurd?  How then could Christ claim to forgive sins if He were not the chiefly injured party?  That'd be like Joe Schmoe coming up and forgiving me for stealing YOUR car.  It'd be asinine if not true!
Ah, we finally have it: Christians aren't homophobes, God is a homophobe. Good to know. :)

Why don't you detail modern evolutionary theory for me, so I have a better understanding of what you think it is?  I simply was under the impression that it was heavily based on Darwin's works, particularly "The Origin of Species," and wished to point out that the writer of this theory which modern theory is more or less based on had some things to say about his own ideas.
Why don't you look it up? Kara doesn't have to explain it.

Tell me what it is, then.  Obviously I'm way off-base, and would like to fix that.
Why don't you just wiki it? Hell, you brought it up as a talking point, so are you trying to tell us you tried to use it in your argument while you didn't actually know very much at all about it? Bad form, mate.

Not a book, but lots of books?  That's your argument?  There are four (that's 4, not 1) books in the Bible that are first-hand (or would it be second-hand?  Which is more correct in this context?) accounts of the life of Christ.  That's multiple books.  Beyond that, there are numerous (that's many many) prophecies detailing His life hundreds of years before He was born.  After His life, there were many books written about Him by those that followed Him (the remainder of the New Testament).  If you believe in Galileo Galilee because there were many books written about him, surely this is enough to convince you of the existence of Christ?
Oh, don't be obtuse. You know exactly what he meant. Let's put it this way: A wide spectrum of eyewitness accounts, published papers, and otherwise accurate sources all point to a man named Galileo actually existing.

On the other hand, all accounts of Jesus' life are far older, have been admittedly tampered with over the hundreds of years since they were written, and are of questionable quality as a purely historical source by any account.

Surely you must see the difference between the two cases as both the quality and amount of sources present, not to mention the accuracy when cross-checked with other source and soforth.

So now you're saying it's indeed based on the amount of proof and not the kind of proof?  Because there's a ton of people in Africa who say AIDS can be cured by raping babies.  I know, my argument here is bordering on absurd.  I'm merely trying to draw a comparison with a very clear-cut example.
...Yeah, i'm not going to touch that with a 10-foot pole. :wtf:

What do you believe now?  What extraordinary proof have you been given that leads you to believe that is true?  Because I tell you, God's given me quite a bit of extraordinary proof, except it only applies to my own life, really.  I've already given you a piece of my life story, though, and you didn't like it very much.
Oh, don't be like that. It was very noble of you to present your life story openly on the forum, and we respect that. However, you seem to have misunderstood the concept of "proof". Now, let's get back to the question at hand:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. The burden of proof lies on you, and for the record; gut feelings don't qualify as proof. Sorry.

So basically you're saying there are absolutely no laws of the Universe which science has proven and are taken as fact?  The law of gravity?  The law of conservation of momentum?  The laws of aerodynamics?  None of this is taken as fact?  Many theories, even, are taught as fact today.
Fun fact (pun intended, :P), there actually exists more recorded evidence for the modern theory of evolution than for Gravity.

You seem to have a deep misunderstanding for how science works. While many of these ideas are taught as fact, at their heart each is only a theory based on the best evidence modern science possesses. Each of those seemingly immutable laws is just the best explanation humanity could come up with given what we've seen. Nothing is taken as fact as there is always the possibility of something in the future coming along and giving us a new idea on how things work. Accepting things as pure fact without question is religious people do. Accepting that we only know as much as we know and that our ideas could be fundamentally changed at any point is what a man of science will do.

Urgh, sorry, that came out sounding really anal. Meh, having a Biology final a few hours ago will do that to you. :p

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Stand back, B.Sc in Genetics/Immunology 'a comin'! =)

I admit, I skimmed, but I want to clear up three things right now.
1.  The nature of scientific "laws."
2.  Abiogenesis.
3.  Evolution.

1.  Scientific Laws.

The scientific method is based upon creating hypotheses, observing or testing data while controlling for as many variables as possible while manipulating a variable of interest, and examining results for significance (usually statistically) to determine if a generalizable explanation of the phenomenon is produced.  Your hypothesis can be false, or it can be supported by the data.  A hypothesis CANNOT be true.  Truth implies it acts that way 100% of the time in every circumstance.

When hypothesis gain greater support through many experiments, they often become theories.  Gravity is still a theory.  The three "laws" of thermodynamics are still theory.  Kinetic molecular theory (the foundation of modern chemistry, physics, and biology) is still theory.  Evolution is still theory.

When a theory gains enough supporting evidence, it is often called a law.  That does not mean it is always true, but it does mean that either the violations of it are extremely specific or unknown altogether.

Now, theory in science does not mean theory in lay-terms.  Scientific theory is a cohesive, sound collective of facts which explain a phenomenon.  It being theory does not mean it isn't relevant or a very important discovery for understanding our world.  That's a criticism levelled at evolution all the time - "it's still a theory!"  So is gravity, yet I don't see people trying to walk on their roofs and walls.

2.  Abiogenesis

Abiogenesis merely states that life came from its chemical components - that simple replicating chemical system were the precursors to the first form of life on Earth.  It does not go beyond that.

It's important to note that many of the proposed reactions necessary to create simple replicating biological systems can at present be done in a lab, and dear old Craig Venter of the Human genome project is hard at work on the rest of them.

The foundation of abiogenesis is this:  all life is characterized by the ability to reproduce itself.  Therefore, the simplest biological system could have easily existed in a primordial soup and merely consisted of self-replicating ribozymes (background:  RNA can act as an enzyme, cutting, splicing, and even replicating itself).  RNA is quite reactive and quite unstable, so mutations or changes to the chemical structure could have other effects.  The characteristic cell membrane and organelles in eukaryote cells would have come much later.  Truthfully, a ribozyme capable of self-replication is probably the beginning of life on Earth.  Different ribozymes mixing in the chemical soup that used to cover the plant could work in conjunction, each beginning to perform specific functions upon which the others depended.  The process simply grew in complexity for there, culminating in cells we know today.  Interestingly, there is evidence that prokaryotes (that is, bacteria) are actually a more recent evolutionary product than eukaryotes, the idea being that both developed from Archaea.

3.  Evolution

Evolution merely states that life forms change over time.  If you deny that, quit reading because you're an idiot.  We can watch how organisms change and diverge into new species over a course of a few years under controlled circumstances.  Evolutionary theory existed well before Charles Darwin - Darwin's contribution was a mechanism.  Previously, people had all kinds of theoris about how life evolved, but Darwin was the one who suggested natural selection.

Natural selection is the process by which some organisms die before reproducing, while others reproduce before dying.  Which of the two options depends on how well that organism is adapted to its environment.  Those that survive and reproduce pass along their genes to the next generation, while those that die do not.  Thus, each successive generation of a species contains genes from only a subset of the possible parentage.  EVOLUTION OCCURS ONLY AT THE SPECIES LEVEL BETWEEN GENERATIONS.  Organisms are adapted, or not, when they are born.  They do not suddenly acquire new characteristics part way through their life span.  Evolution typically takes several generations, but can be observed at the phenotypic level (visible traits) in as little as one.  Genotypic evolution (the evolution of the genes a species carries) occurs every generation, gradually.  The discrepancy between phenotypic and genotypic evolution is why we see punctuated equilibirium in the fossil record - genotypic changes must "add up" before we see a phenotypic change - one gene mutation does not equate to one physical trait most of the time (although for some specific genes it does).  Thus, the "gap in the fossil record" is not really a gap at all, but rather the effect of cumulative changes in genetic sequence required to produce a visible change.  Example:  Physically, we are identical to our ancestors of 100,000 years ago.  Genetically, disease, famine, and interbreeding have produced significant genetic changes in Homo sapiens.

Natural selection is visible in a lab within populations that have swift generational time: bacteria, viruses, flies, eels, and worms are all examples of this.  We can also point to artifical selection as an example of how evolution occurs - isolated populations breed, and specific traits are passed along to the offspirng of each subsequent generation.  Dogs, for example, are a single species which have been selected for when reproducing to produce specific traits, which we call breeds.

The underlying mechanism for natural selection is genetics, which has only been well understood for approximately 50 years (the history of genetics extends only back into the mid 1800s).  Humans, as one examply, have about 110,000 genes, coding for millions if not billions of proteins.  This occur because genes can be "spliced" to produce different RNAs and thus different proteins.  Thus, a single mutation can affect several different proteins, which can in turn affect several different bodily systems.  The result is that a single mutation in combination with other mutations can produce drastic changes in the visible phenotype over a single generation.

One more thing:  When species evolve, they evolve through either cladogenesis or anagenesis:  in cladogenesis, we get two (or more) distinct species emerging from one.  In anagenesis, the single species merely changes such that it can no longer be classified as the same species that it was.  IN ALL FORMS, WHEN A SPECIES EVOLVES THE ORIGINAL ANCESTRAL SPECIES NO LONGER EXISTS.  You seem to think that the ancestor sticks around - it doesn't.

If you still either don't get it, or refuse to believe, I'll grab you a well-executed study where a group of researchers stuck a species of lizard into a new environment and over the course of less than 5 years saw it evolve into two distinct species (part of the definition of species is that they no longer interbreed).

You cannot believe in so-called "microevolution" without accepting "macroevolution."  They are not two distinct concepts, but rather two halves of the same whole.  I hear this argument from the anti-evolution crowd all the time and it simply screams that you don't actually know what you're talking about, but may have read a book or two or listen to a lecture by somebody else on why you shouldn't believe evolution.

People who don't "believe" in evolution don't understand what evolutionary theory actually says, means, or how it works.  A little education would go a long way for those lost souls.  There isn't a debate - there are merely religious people who refuse to accept science, and everyobody else who is tired of arguing with them.  No serious scientist bothers to debate it anymore because it is a truly worthless endeavour.  Thus why I'm not arguing against varied forms of Creationism, but rather explaining evolution.

Oh, I just saw this so I'm adding point 4:

Homosexuality.

All evidence to date points to homosexuality being a product of biology, likely in the nervous system.  It is not heritable, but rather appears to be a condition that results from varied forms of early developmental biology.  Little known fact:  We do not have only two sexes.  Religion and science both coined the idea that two sexes are all that exist, but sexual identification both mentally AND biologically spans a wide variety of forms.  Intersex, a concept which genetics has brought into the limelight, is a condition where some biological sexual characteristics are male and some are female, in varied proportions (this is not hermaphromatism).

The sole factor that determines sex is a single androgen, a hormone called testosterone.  Babies exposed to higher levels of testosterone develop male sexual characteristics; if exposed to lower levels, they develop the default, female characteristics.  Chromosomally XY people can be female.  Chromosomally XX people can be male.  XX/XY is not a law, just the typical default organization scheme nature has produced.  In addition, each part of the body must be exposed to the correct hormonal levels in order to develop according to its "assigned sex."  Intersexed individuals are a product of androgen exposure in some parts of the body during development, but not others.  Conceivably (and this has been hypothesized but not yet tested), homosexuality may result from centers of the brain responsible for sexual attraction being exposed to an amount of androgen different from the rest of the body.  Homosexuality can therefore be lumped as a form of intersex, a biologically normal condition that occurs quite frequently in human populations.  Homosexuality is therefore absolutely normal, and a product of how we develop.

To top it off, homosexuality has only become a "category" of person since approximately the year 1750.  Prior to that, homosexuality was merely a behaviour which various socieites accepted or not depending on their cultural norms.  5th century Athens was a society that accepted limited homosexual practices under certain conditions.  A modern culture, the Sambians, practice same-sex sexual acts as a matter of growing up, but it has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

In short, your nonsense is a political agenda promoted by primarily religious institutions to bar the practice of pleasure as a phenomenon which they controlled (gee, do I sound like Foucault yet? :P) in order to further control the daily lives and practices of the population they included as part of their organization.  In large part, the Catholic Church condemns homosexuality as it does birth control merely because they believe sexual union should produce children, which in turn will grow up to be good little Catholics and donate money to their local church.

The modern conception of homosexuality is a political lie created by both religion and science to further dominate and control vulnerable populations of people.

And that, my friends, is a synthesis of biology, philosophy, and a little bit of sociology thrown in for good measure =)

EDIT:  Holy crap, I just looked back at page 20 and saw some of the BS people are spouting about homosexuality and I am genuinely terrified that you guys are not only quoting it but might be believing it.  But let me put your minds at rest again:
-Homosexuality is probably not genetic, because there is no indication it is heritable.  Breeding has nothing to do with it; conditions can be genetic and not be passed on but still crop up because of little things known to us genetics types as SNPs, or point mutations.  In essence, random changes to DNA which occur throught a cell's lifespan.
-As a developmental condition, homosexuality is a variation on intersex, a natural biological condition which makes the Church and conservative moral types freak right the hell out.  What, sexual characteristics are fluid and on a gradual scale, not absolute?  Madness!  Oh wait, so was a heliocentric model of the solar system.  Oops.
-Cure for homosexuality?  Believe it or not, sexual acts do not exist solely for reproductive reasons my friends.  There's plenty of sex, both human and animal, that occurs for a wide variety of reasons that have nothing to do with procreation.  I hear homosexuality and cure in the same sentence and I have these horrible flashbacks to eugenics.
-Saying hate the sin, not the sinner, is a cop-out, an attempt to disguise intolerance of diversity and difference under a cloak of Faith.  Fact of the matter is that everyone's biology is different in many ways and none is "more right" than any other.
-Because it pissed me off, Captain Jack*ss's analysis of homosexuality as something akin to sickle cell anemia is not only totally wrong, but betrays an underlying ignorance of biology in the first place.

Did I mention I can't WAIT to hear some of the responses to this post?  I'm ready boys... I've got PubMed fired up and I'm ready to go, so take your best shot and just pray you got it right because I swear if someone tries to make a biological argument and muffs it up I will crucify them alive in text, pun intended.  You have been warned :)
« Last Edit: November 15, 2007, 02:11:07 am by MP-Ryan »
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Offline Mefustae

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So is gravity, yet I don't see people trying to walk on their roofs and walls.
You've never been to anyone's 21st? :p

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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So is gravity, yet I don't see people trying to walk on their roofs and walls.
You've never been to anyone's 21st? :p

I'm from Canada, it's 18 or 19 up here =)

And usually that point comes when all rationality has been suspended by alcohol.

Wait...

alcohol = religion?

*runs*
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Offline NGTM-1R

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I dont understand what point you're trying to make here.

No. I don't suppose you would. You managed to miss it or ignore it consistantly.
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Offline karajorma

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Oi! Keep it civil ngtm1r.



When a theory gains enough supporting evidence, it is often called a law.  That does not mean it is always true, but it does mean that either the violations of it are extremely specific or unknown altogether.

While I pretty much agree with everything else I think this bit needs further explaining or it looks like a law is a higher standard that a theory.

A law is basically a part of a scientific theory which can be summed up in a line or two. In general a law makes predictions about what will be observed under the circumstances described. The law states what will happen, but you have to look at the theory to hear why it happens.

For instance Newton's law of universal gravitation states that "Gravitational force between two objects equals the gravitational constant times the product of the masses divided by the distance between them squared." You'd have to look at the theory to see why that is true.

So as you can see a law is not higher standard of proof than a theory. It's simply a good way of predicting what will occur. Theory is as good as it gets when it comes to explanations.

Why don't you just wiki it? Hell, you brought it up as a talking point, so are you trying to tell us you tried to use it in your argument while you didn't actually know very much at all about it?

To be fair actually I brought it up to refute his claim that everything science does points to God's work. Commonly even Christians who believe in evolution will draw the dividing line at abiogenesis and claim that it's not true.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2007, 02:09:11 am by karajorma »
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Offline MP-Ryan

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While I pretty much agree with everything else I think this bit needs further explaining or it looks like a law is a higher standard that a theory.

A law is basically a part of a scientific theory which can be summed up in a line or two. In general a law makes predictions about what will be observed under the circumstances described. The law states what will happen, but you have to look at the theory to hear why it happens.

For instance Newton's law of universal gravitation states that "Gravitational force between two objects equals the gravitational constant times the product of the masses divided by the distance between them squared." You'd have to look at the theory to see why that is true.

So as you can see a law is not higher standard of proof than a theory. It's simply a good way of predicting what will occur. Theory is as good as it gets when it comes to explanations.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at but I see I was somewhat ambiguous in my rush to get to the biology =)
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 
Interesting you should say that, because you give no discription of what you mean by "abiogenesis," then.  I gather it means life from no life.  The most common theory by which that happened is evolution from single-celled organisms.  You call me dishonest, but I was asking you.  I wasn't making statements as if I knew them.  Abiogenesis is a relatively new term for me.  Until a few days ago it wasn't even a part of my vocabulary except via the Greek roots, so forgive me.
He didn't give a description because it's irrelevant to the topic at hand. You brought it up out of nowhere and, while it would be interesting to continue along that thread, it would be best for the current discussion that we talk about abiogenesis at a later date. Several people have made it clear that it is unrelated to the topic at hand, let's leave it at that.

No, actually, Kara brought it up in its current context.  I stated that science backs up God's existence, and he asked, "Even abiogenesis?"  That's how this little tangent started.  But I tend to agree that it should be saved for later, if ever, because it really is a matter of no significance next to a risen Christ.

In a sense, I guess that means my beliefs on homosexuality are more of, rather than a genetic thing (which has not been proven, btw), it's a spiritual sickness of sorts, only cured by the grace of God.  Just because it's exhibited by many people doesn't make it right.  Just because it's done by animals, doesn't make it right.  Are we to be like animals, then?  No!
Aside from the fact that we are members of the animal kingdom, the whole "spiritual sickness" thing is kind of unsettling. I don't know, it's just really creepy to have someone put it that way. :wtf:
Yes, we are classified as animals under current our current taxonomy model, yet I think you'd agree we are quite a bit set apart from the rest of the animal kingdom, even our closest genetic cousins, the great apes.  They've demonstrated a capability to develop and use tools, they have demonstrated a capability to adopt a language, yet they are so incredibly different from us, so... I'd almost use the term unwilling to develop the way we have, into cultures and societies.  I (as would any Christian) would argue that we are indeed very different, as the Bible tells us, we have a piece of God's own soul within us that so defines us.  Our very humanity, if you will, is from God.  Except for pride.  That comes from ourselves at the instigation of Satan (the Serpent).

You want more than the Bible to say "boys kissing boys is icky?"  I can't do that without my post losing all taste by describing human sexual anatomy and how it's supposed to work.  If that's what you want, I'll go there.  But I think you're a little old for a sex talk.

How is a genetic predisposition to violence any different from a genetic predisposition to homosexual tendencies?
Thanks for pointing that out, Captain Obvious. The parts don't fit together in that way. Like trying to put two Legos together using only the knobbly bits on top, it just won't fit. Although I don't really see how that makes it "immoral", whatever that means.

You might say the two genetic predispositions are different because one hurts people, the other doesn't. Let's reiterate; Violence hurts people. It hurts people, people get hurt. Homosexuality... doesn't? Hmm, let's think about this, how does homosexuality hurt people? Quite the conundrum, we've got here.

Well, for one, if every human on Earth were homosexual, humanity would cease to exist within a generation, much the same way it would if everyone were an axe-murderer. 

The person who gets hurt by this sin is the same who is chiefly hurt by all sin: God Himself.  How is God hurt?  God is perfect.  God cannot stand imperfection to be in His presence.  When we sin, no matter what it is, we are no longer able to stand in God's presence and yet draw breath.  It just doesn't work.  Now, when God, being perfect, says that something is imperfect, we can usually take His word as right, because arguing with Him is like cutting off the tree limb on which you sit.  You think this is absurd?  How then could Christ claim to forgive sins if He were not the chiefly injured party?  That'd be like Joe Schmoe coming up and forgiving me for stealing YOUR car.  It'd be asinine if not true!
Ah, we finally have it: Christians aren't homophobes, God is a homophobe. Good to know. :)
  LOL, that's funny.  Not really true, though.  God, like myself, hates homosexuality but not homosexuals.  God doesn't hate gays any more than he hates murderers, rapists, and genocidal maniacs.  God loves them all.  Christ died for them all.  God hates all sin, and loves all people.  However, as Lewis says, "Love may forgive all infirmities and love still in spite of them: but Love cannot cease to will their removal."

Why don't you detail modern evolutionary theory for me, so I have a better understanding of what you think it is?  I simply was under the impression that it was heavily based on Darwin's works, particularly "The Origin of Species," and wished to point out that the writer of this theory which modern theory is more or less based on had some things to say about his own ideas.
Why don't you look it up? Kara doesn't have to explain it.
  Indeed I shall.


Tell me what it is, then.  Obviously I'm way off-base, and would like to fix that.
Why don't you just wiki it? Hell, you brought it up as a talking point, so are you trying to tell us you tried to use it in your argument while you didn't actually know very much at all about it? Bad form, mate.
  Read above.  You are mistaken.  Kara brought it up in the present context.


Not a book, but lots of books?  That's your argument?  There are four (that's 4, not 1) books in the Bible that are first-hand (or would it be second-hand?  Which is more correct in this context?) accounts of the life of Christ.  That's multiple books.  Beyond that, there are numerous (that's many many) prophecies detailing His life hundreds of years before He was born.  After His life, there were many books written about Him by those that followed Him (the remainder of the New Testament).  If you believe in Galileo Galilee because there were many books written about him, surely this is enough to convince you of the existence of Christ?
Oh, don't be obtuse. You know exactly what he meant. Let's put it this way: A wide spectrum of eyewitness accounts, published papers, and otherwise accurate sources all point to a man named Galileo actually existing.

On the other hand, all accounts of Jesus' life are far older, have been admittedly tampered with over the hundreds of years since they were written, and are of questionable quality as a purely historical source by any account.

Surely you must see the difference between the two cases as both the quality and amount of sources present, not to mention the accuracy when cross-checked with other source and soforth.

Indeed I do not see a difference.  Both happened a long time ago, both well before our lifetimes, or that of a number of generations countable on one hand.  Probably even two hands.  So why do you take it for granted that the story of Galileo was tampered with less than the story of Christ?  There are many, many accounts of Christ, with, generally speaking, the same opportunity to tamper with them as the stories about Galileo.

Until the various councils compiled the list of books considered canon, what you had were a set of books.  Each "book" of the Bible was indeed a separate writing.  Thus, in the Bible, you do have many, many sources making claims about Christ, and His life.  The four gospels are the most obvious.  Each of them is a separate account of the life of Christ from separate people.  In this collection of books, we have, in several of the books, prophecies of Christ's coming.  We have several people talk about Christ after His time on Earth.  In the Gospels we have the testimony of all those who saw Him post-execution.  We even have the testimony of one who strongly persecuted members of the early Church, had them dragged from their homes, beaten, and executed in the name of a God he thought he knew, then after an encounter with Christ, turned around and wrote half of the New Testament, and wound up being beheaded because of his belief in Christ.  Wow, that's not very well articulated.  There's something I wanna say with that, but I'm having trouble doing it.  Sorry about that.


What do you believe now?  What extraordinary proof have you been given that leads you to believe that is true?  Because I tell you, God's given me quite a bit of extraordinary proof, except it only applies to my own life, really.  I've already given you a piece of my life story, though, and you didn't like it very much.
Oh, don't be like that. It was very noble of you to present your life story openly on the forum, and we respect that. However, you seem to have misunderstood the concept of "proof". Now, let's get back to the question at hand:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. The burden of proof lies on you, and for the record; gut feelings don't qualify as proof. Sorry.
  Not really gut feelings, more a statistical analysis of the events in my life and how they've led me to who I am today. 

Let me try to tackle this another way.  I tell you God loves you.  You want proof?  Your heart yet beats, despite an evil in your heart I can't even guess about.  You have your problems, I have mine.  These problems are enough for us (you and me) to deserve death.  And that is what we'd get but for the gift of God.  How do I know this?  The Bible.  Why would I believe the Bible over, say, the Qaran?  Because within the Bible is the greatest love story ever told.  The Bible tells of a God who creates a universe and fills it with life.  God wishes for this life to amount to something, and in order to do that, it must have free will.  God gives this life free will, but this life is deceived into thinking it could be as good as God, if not better.  From this error in judgement, we have all of human history.  From this erro in judgement, we have death.  Despite this, God loved us so much, He became one of us and died our death, so we might be freed from it to spend Eternity with Him.  In this, we have God reaching down to pick up the pieces of a vase that knocked itself off the table, putting them back together, and bringing it to life.  No other religion, belief structure, whatever, is there something so beautiful as this love.

And if I'm wrong, if there is no God, no Heaven, well, when I get to the point where I find out, I won't really care, because I won't exist anymore.

And if I'm wrong, I come back reincarnated as a beetle or whatever, I won't care because I'll have another chance.  Or if I find myself confronted by a god who is angry with me because I wasn't perfect here on Earth, well, there's nothing I can do about that now, because I first told a lie to my mommy when I was 4.  And I refuse to start reaching up at something that is unattainable on the off chance that I might make it to some form of paradise.  If that's what a god requires of me, I'll have none of it, because there is no love there.  That's a god who is too proud for his own people.


So basically you're saying there are absolutely no laws of the Universe which science has proven and are taken as fact?  The law of gravity?  The law of conservation of momentum?  The laws of aerodynamics?  None of this is taken as fact?  Many theories, even, are taught as fact today.
Fun fact (pun intended, :P), there actually exists more recorded evidence for the modern theory of evolution than for Gravity.

You seem to have a deep misunderstanding for how science works. While many of these ideas are taught as fact, at their heart each is only a theory based on the best evidence modern science possesses. Each of those seemingly immutable laws is just the best explanation humanity could come up with given what we've seen. Nothing is taken as fact as there is always the possibility of something in the future coming along and giving us a new idea on how things work. Accepting things as pure fact without question is religious people do. Accepting that we only know as much as we know and that our ideas could be fundamentally changed at any point is what a man of science will do.

Urgh, sorry, that came out sounding really anal. Meh, having a Biology final a few hours ago will do that to you. :p

I understand.  I know that all laws are subject to change based on new discoveries.

But at this time, how many people do we have attempting to rewrite and redefine and rediscover Gravity?  Any new evidence to the contrary of the current model will likely happen by accident.  We've accepted Gravity, and have moved on, and will continue to do so until we find reason to redefine it.  Thus, while it is subject to change, we are not constantly trying to establish that it's true.  And rightly so.  To do so would be insane.

woah crap, while I wrote that, there were 6 new replies!  Lemme catch up
Could we with ink the ocean fill, and were the skies of parchment made
Were every stalk on earth a quill, and every man a scribe by trade
To write the love of God above, would drain the ocean dry
Nor could the scroll contain the whole, though stretched from sky to sky!

 
MP-Ryan, you probably won't want to hear a word I want to say, but thanks for the info.

Also, you should know that I am not catholic.


SO Karajorma, to answer your original question about Abiogenesis:  So it creates some of the processes necessary for life.  1. that's still a very long way from life, and 2. There's still the VERY present issue of sentience, consciousness and intelligence.
Could we with ink the ocean fill, and were the skies of parchment made
Were every stalk on earth a quill, and every man a scribe by trade
To write the love of God above, would drain the ocean dry
Nor could the scroll contain the whole, though stretched from sky to sky!