[Mefustae]

Here's my opinion... take it or leave it; Bush worked miracles with the economy post 9/11. That goes entirely unsung.

You seem to like bringing 1936-onwards Germany into this discussion, so perhaps we could get you to point out the other famous leader who's efforts in greatly improving his nation's economic and military might often go unsung?

[NGTM-1R]

The German army's problem was that after the defeat of France Hitler assumed total and absolute control over absolutly everything they did. Why? He didn't trust his generals. The Germans were quite resourceful, when they were allowed to be.

This doesn't tally with the defeat in France itself, or for that matter experience in Russia. Hitler became de facto Army Supreme Commander after Stalingrad. There is no denying the Germans were smart, but their command structure was crippled at levels far lower than der Fuhrer. Corps and division command, with a few noteable exceptions, were weak, and junior officers/NCOs were in some senses very good, in other senses very poor.

And in a lot of ways the US Army was simply better-designed. Organizationally it was extremely well thought-out (irony: the US organizational setup for armored divisions, often considered the best in the world, was developed at a time when they had no tanks). It has been said that had it been a US Army force that conducted Operation Barbrossa, Moscow would have been taken. This is probably true, since much better attention was payed to logistical and maintainance work, but on the other hand it also probably would never have been launched, since the US Army also was much better at use of intelligence. As Chief of the Army Staff Franz Halder lamented on the 100th day of the Russian campaign: "When we began this campaign we counted on a force of 160 large enemy formations. We have already encountered 220."

[TrashMan]

The Shah of Iran situation was extremely stable and was the best it had ever been until Carter came into presidency, and cut all support from the Shah, effectively turning it into a terrorist state.

Congratualations, you have jsut been brainwashed.
Whenever I hear something like that it makes me wanna puke.

Who the hell gives out those brands?
When's hte last time the US administration actually had some PROOF against a country it's accusing of something?

[Mars]

When was the last time the word "terrorist" actually meant something?

Considering the Armenian genocide a genocide is close to the best thing the US Congress has done in years, although they should also have added the ousting of Native Americans to that category as well. Turkey, the second largest military in NATO has a huge military, it would be idiotic for the both US and Turkey to have any kind of conflict, because the result could be the WWIII that people are trying to prevent.

War between two huge military forces, both with nukes = bad thing.

[Koth]

War between two huge military forces, both with nukes = bad thing.

Since when does Turkey have Nuclear Weapons?

[Mars]

They don't

They do have >1,000,000 troops

[Koth]

Yes but you wrote

both with nukes

Turkey does not have nukes.

[Hazaanko]

The Shah of Iran situation was extremely stable and was the best it had ever been until Carter came into presidency, and cut all support from the Shah, effectively turning it into a terrorist state.

Congratualations, you have jsut been brainwashed.
Whenever I hear something like that it makes me wanna puke.

Who the hell gives out those brands?
When's hte last time the US administration actually had some PROOF against a country it's accusing of something?

I think you misunderstand me.  The point I was trying to make with that statement was tied into the original topic, and the rest of my post.  President Lyndon B. Johnson in 1964: "What is going on in Iran is about the best thing going on anywhere in the world."  President Carter with the Shah of Iran, New Year's Eve 1977 toasted Iran as "an island of stability in one of the more troubled areas of the world."  Want more reading? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1886755/posts  (bias there is a bit heavy, but most of the facts are straight.  Gimme a break, I didn't take a lot of time to find it. )

I never said that the Shah of Iran was perfect.  I said that the "situation was extremely stable and was the best it had ever been until Carter came into presidency, and cut all support from the Shah, effectively turning it into a terrorist state."

Were there human rights violations under his rule?  Absolutely.  But it is absolutely nothing compared to what it was before and what it is now.
I'm not focusing on the situation itself - I'm focusing on how Carter handled it.  And he handled it badly.  VERY BADLY.  There are times and ways to chastise an ally, and there are sure as hell times and ways not to.

It is pretty much what is being done with Turkey right now.  Only the basis for the whole Turkey thing is much much much more ridiculous.  But hopefully, the repercussions won't be as extreme as they were with Iran 30 years ago.

[Mars]

Yes but you wrote

both with nukes

Turkey does not have nukes.

Whoops... my bad

Still I think we can all agree that neither Turkey nor the US can afford open warfare, and that things could easily spiral out of control from there.

[Kosh]

Were there human rights violations under his rule?  Absolutely.  But it is absolutely nothing compared to what it was before and what it is now.

I doubt there was much of a difference.

I'm not focusing on the situation itself - I'm focusing on how Carter handled it.  And he handled it badly.  VERY BADLY.  There are times and ways to chastise an ally, and there are sure as hell times and ways not to.

In what ways? Again, the message I'm getting is that Carter is somehow responsible for the Shah's overthrow........

[Hazaanko]

Were there human rights violations under his rule?  Absolutely.  But it is absolutely nothing compared to what it was before and what it is now.

I doubt there was much of a difference.

I'm not focusing on the situation itself - I'm focusing on how Carter handled it.  And he handled it badly.  VERY BADLY.  There are times and ways to chastise an ally, and there are sure as hell times and ways not to.

In what ways? Again, the message I'm getting is that Carter is somehow responsible for the Shah's overthrow........

Then your doubt would be misplaced.

And yes, Carter was largely responsible for the Shah's overthrow.

[TrashMan]

Hazaanko, I was reffering to you calling Iran a terrorist state.

Such labels are really not called for.

[BengalTiger]

Again, the message I'm getting is that Carter is somehow responsible for the Shah's overthrow........

And again, you're right.
Without support the Mulla's made a revolution and now the president of Iran openly declares that Iran must destroy Israel, with all means available (so guess why they're researching atomic energy?  -  Right, you can't make a nuke having huge oil supplies, because oil gives only energy for less destructive things, like running cars or powerplants)

Hazaanko, I was reffering to you calling Iran a terrorist state.

Such labels are really not called for.

I have to disagree here, for the reason I've wrote above.

[TrashMan]

He said the Isreal should be destroyed, not that they will do it, now and with any means.

Their president may be driven, but that doesn't make a whole country a nest for terrorists.

[jr2]

Half the crap they are dealing with in Iraq (well, more than half) comes from Iran.  Go figure.

[Hazaanko]

Hazaanko, I was reffering to you calling Iran a terrorist state.

Such labels are really not called for.

I'll concede this - "Terrorist state" is over the top and not really accurate.  But then again, the term "terrorist state" isn't really clearly defined anywhere...  I'm just referencing the numerous allegations and incidents surrounding their supplying of weapons to terrorists in Iraq and being a major source of terrorist propaganda.

[karajorma]

Considering the Armenian genocide a genocide is close to the best thing the US Congress has done in years, although they should also have added the ousting of Native Americans to that category as well.

I've always thought the fairest solution to the entire debacle is for the USA to censure Turkey for the Armenian thing followed by Turkey turning right around and censuring the USA for their treatment of the Native Americans.

[Hazaanko]

Considering the Armenian genocide a genocide is close to the best thing the US Congress has done in years, although they should also have added the ousting of Native Americans to that category as well.

I've always thought the fairest solution to the entire debacle is for the USA to censure Turkey for the Armenian thing followed by Turkey turning right around and censuring the USA for their treatment of the Native Americans.

Hahahaha thats awesome 

[TrashMan]

Half the crap they are dealing with in Iraq (well, more than half) comes from Iran.  Go figure.

Proof please.... ...What? nothing? I'm shocked!

[BengalTiger]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCIRI#Iranian_support
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Dawa_Party#2003_American_Invasion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quds_Force

Since it's 12:30 AM here, I don't feel like searching for anything better.