[Mobius]

In my (very non-canon) theory, the Scorpion isn't in the FS2's Shivan fleet because the second Shivan fleet was separated from the FS1 fleet for a long time. The FS1 fleet developed the Scorpion, but the FS2 Shivan fleet developed the Astaroth instead.

A strange theory. Are you able to find at least one Aeolus class cruiser in remote GTVA systems, at least shortly after the construction of the first sets of Aeoli? No. Standard Shivan designs are common and fleets coming from different parts of the galaxy have different fleets. Also, don't forget that probably wanted new and better designs like the Rakshasa, the Ravana or the Mara.

I suppose if a pilot knew how to use it's high speed to dodge stuff, it would be a bit more effective, but it's AI-controlled, so...

That is the point. They are awful just because the AI controls them. In FS1 the Astaroth would have been a fearsome opponent(no uber-secondaries or primaries to engage enemies at long range).

But try to use Joshua's tables, dogfighting Astaroth fighters becomes exciting with it

Post Scriptum
I wonder why FreeSpace's Astaroth is slim and weak while Soul Calibur's Astaroth is big and strong...

[Snail]

I don't think you understand me, Mobius, I'm saying that the FS1 Shivans are a different fleet completely to the FS2 Shivans. They are different fleets with different ships. The FS1 have the Scorpion, and the FS2 Shivans have the Astaroth.

http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Snail%27s_Theory

[lenard27]

I don't think you understand me, Mobius, I'm saying that the FS1 Shivans are a different fleet completely to the FS2 Shivans. They are different fleets with different ships. The FS1 have the Scorpion, and the FS2 Shivans have the Astaroth.

http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Snail%27s_Theory

Ya know, Snail, I actually read your theory about 3 days ago, and it made of sense to me. 
And it amazes me how easy the Astaroth was to kill in FS2

[Mobius]

FreeSpace is a game. In the new chapter of a series like it, new ships are to appear. And with them, many new features.

You waste time with things like:

"Why do FS2 Shivan ships have beams?"

"Why does the Shivan fleet of FS2 have designs like the Rakshasa?"

Without considering all inconsistencies. You want to find and answer, and you're wasting your time.

wanted new stuff and new features. Thanks to all these things, FS2 became the best sci-fi game. Has the presence of completely new stuff to be explained with theories? No!

[lenard27]

FreeSpace is a game. In the new chapter of a series like it, new ships are to appear. And with them, many new features.

You waste time with things like:

"Why do FS2 Shivan ships have beams?"

"Why does the Shivan fleet of FS2 have designs like the Rakshasa?"

Without considering all inconsistencies. You want to find and answer, and you're wasting your time.

wanted new stuff and new features. Thanks to all these things, FS2 became the best sci-fi game. Has the presence of completely new stuff to be explained with theories? No!

No, it doesn't have to be explained with theories and stuff, but its more fun that way

[Snail]

wanted new stuff and new features. Thanks to all these things, FS2 became the best sci-fi game. Has the presence of completely new stuff to be explained with theories? No!

Yes and no. From an in-universe point of view, they are of large importance, and you cannot simply ignore things like that. Though may never have decided to explain them, they are inconsistencies. Inconsistencies which can be explained. If we're talking of things in-universe, then they must be explained, but from a point of view that portrays FreeSpace as a mindless form of entertainment (which it is), then I agree with you.

[Mobius]

It's not fun when your own theories aren't accepted by the most.

FreeSpace 2 > FreeSpace 1.

In case of inconsistencies, whatever FS2 says becomes canon.

How would you explain the presence of several jump nodes in Sol, for example?

Yes and no. From an in-universe point of view, they are of large importance, and you cannot simply ignore things like that. Though may never have decided to explain them, they are inconsistencies. Inconsistencies which can be explained. If we're talking of things in-universe, then they must be explained, but from a point of view that portrays FreeSpace as a mindless form of entertainment (which it is), then I agree with you.

Read above.

You don't even have to explain all those things. They don't even have an explanation! I have seen nothing from about inconsistencies.

"Should we 'trust' FS2 or FS1?"

The answer is so obvious for me. You risk closing your mind, as demonstrated in that thread about the Ancients. Taking only FS1 as font of informations, the Ancients can be considered as a "not so powerful" civilization. If you take in consideration FS2, things like the Colossus invite you to think about the true extent of the Ancient fleet.

[Snail]

The answer is so obvious for me. You risk closing your mind, as demonstrated in that thread about the Ancients. Taking only FS1 as font of informations, the Ancients can be considered as a "not so powerful" civilization. If you take in consideration FS2, things like the Colossus invite you to think about the true extent of the Ancient fleet.

Okay. I am going to say this once more.

YOUR THEORIES ARE NOTHING IF THEY ARE DIRECTLY CONTRADICTED BY COMPLETELY CANON INFORMATION.

CANON sources (ie. Volition) have already said that the Ancients were only slightly more advanced than the GTA and PVN when they met the Lucifer. This directly contradicts your beliefs that the Ancients are more powerful than the GTVA.

In case of inconsistencies, whatever FS2 says becomes canon.

True. But IMO, only if they are directly contradicted by FS2 canon. Such as the multiple Sol jump nodes. But what I do not agree with you on is stuff that is not directly pointed out by Volition in FS2 or otherwise.

Take the Ancients for example. NOWHERE in FS2 does it say the Ancients had Juggernauts or Superjuggernauts. In fact, in no Volition sources or FreeSpace canon does it say that Ancients had juggernauts. What Volition does say is that the Ancients were only slightly ahead of the GTA and PVN. I have to say that what Volition said may be outdated, but is 'more' canon than the existence of Ancients Jugs and SJ's simply deduced by the existence of the Colossus.

In other words, if, in FS2, it is stated that the Ancients have a Superjuggernaut, then I will agree this overpowers the FS1 statements and that Ancient SJs are canon. However, this is never stated in FS2 and all we have to go on is the existence of the Colossus. Despite the likelihood of the Ancients having a Supperjuggernaut considering the circumstances and the existence of the Colossus, it is directly contradicted by fully canon sources that canonically, the Ancients did not have a Superjuggernaut.

On the other hand, Volition sources directly contradict the existence of the other Sol jump nodes. This I cannot argue with. Although it appears in the Command Briefings that Sol had jump nodes to other systems apart from Delta Serpentis, it is directly said by Volition that Sol, in fact, does not have jump nodes to other systems apart from Delta Serpentis. No argument there since Volition has definitely overruled the existence of additional Sol Jump Nodes.

You don't even have to explain all those things. They don't even have an explanation! I have seen nothing from about inconsistencies.

From an in-universe point of view, these cannot be ignored. Pretend you are in the FreeSpace universe. The Shivans suddenly appear in the year 2367 and have beams, while 32 years ago it is known universally and is acknowledged universally that the Shivans did not have access to this technology. Do you simply ignore this fact and regard it as an anomaly in the laws of the known universe. NO! There has to be an explanation for this.

Hail Caesar!

[Mobius]

The thread will be split/closed

1) I really want to know if guys from said that shortly after the release of FS1 or FS2. In the first case, I wouldn't even read them. When did they say that? Just tell me who, when and how!

2) The presence of bigger ships is justified by the behaviour of the Ancients. They were stubborn and aggressive, that is canon. Now tell me why they shouldn't have filled themselves with pride. Big ships are symbols of pride!

3) What about "Without considering the Knossos, in FS2 no concrete info regarding the Ancients are given?"

4) I have a point with the Sol jump nodes thing.

5) Your distinction between in-universe and the other doesn't make sense. It is probable that, in a "FS2 point of view", Shivan ships had beams during the Great War, that was their true advantage. ignored it, they weren't stupid. They prefered to replace a "meh..." universe with a "wow!" one, without giving explanations. Try to imagine them writing stuff like "Here follows a list of the stuff we have changed...", come on!

[Snail]

The thread will be split/closed

Note to moderators: Please do not do this. I really want this discussion to continue. I hope it only continues without flaming.

1) I really want to know if guys from said that shortly after the release of FS1 or FS2. In the first case, I wouldn't even read them. When did they say that? Just tell me who, when and how![/color]

Ask IceFire if he turns up. He's usually the one who is contacted by .

2) The presence of bigger ships is justified by the behaviour of the Ancients. They were stubborn and aggressive, that is canon. Now tell me why they shouldn't have filled themselves with pride. Big ships are symbols of pride!

This is where I begin to disagree with you.

It does not matter how likely something is if it is directly contradicted by canon. Your theories are nothing if they are directly contradicted by canon.

3) What about "Without considering the Knossos, in FS2 no concrete info regarding the Ancients are given?"

Yesh. But in Volition sources, it says that Ancients aren't as advanced as you perceive them to be. There is actually negative evidence that the Ancients have Superjugs. It simply cannot happen because it has been contradicted by .

4) I have a point with the Sol jump nodes thing.

Read the post again. I said "No argument there since Volition has definitely overruled the existence of additional Sol Jump Nodes." You have a point, yes. And I even agree with that point. (wow!)

It is probable that, in a "FS2 point of view", Shivan ships had beams during the Great War, that was their true advantage.

Key word in that sentence is "probable". No where in FS2 does it say that Great War era Shivan craft (besides the Lucifer) had access to beam weaponry.

[Mobius]

At least, it is going to be split. We're Off Topic!

1) Ask IceFire. You're the one who needs to prove his theories correct.

2) Again, ask IceFire.

3) Volition sources that preceeded or followed the creation/release of FS2?

4) Take a bow.

5) Meh, you didn't reply to this:

They prefered to replace a "meh..." universe with a "wow!" one, without giving explanations. Try to imagine them writing stuff like "Here follows a list of the stuff we have changed...", come on!

What about it?

[Snail]

3) Volition sources that preceeded or followed the creation/release of FS2?

It doesn't matter. They are canon, and overrule your theories.

They prefered to replace a "meh..." universe with a "wow!" one, without giving explanations. Try to imagine them writing stuff like "Here follows a list of the stuff we have changed...", come on!

What about it?

What about it? It's not canon. FreeSpace 1 definitely has ships without beams, FreeSpace 2 definitely has ships with beams. FreeSpace 2 never says that the Great War involved beam weapons. Therefore, it is not canon.

[Mobius]

1) It doesn't matter? It doesn't matter? That "information" can be even worse than Sol's multiple jump nodes!

2) How can FS2 "says" that there were no beam cannons in FS1? You still don't get my point. You're stuck in your "universe" ideas, you continue to ignore the fact that FreeSpace is a game. And please reply to that sentence...do you think would have created a .txt with all the stuff that changed?

[Goober5000]

Split, but not locked.  Mobius, I don't know if it's an English barrier or what, but you're making yourself look like an idiot again.

[S-99]

This is like a bad star trek convention. I mean like WWWOOOOOAAAAHHH! wtf? I'm surprised trashman didn't hop in here getting all pissed off at the title of the thread.

[jr2]

FS1 does have beam cannons.    Lucifer anyone?  ofc, that's a different ship altogether, but if FS1 Shivans and FS2 Shivans are different fleets, then perhaps the FS1 fleet was on an extended patrol / not upgraded yet or something.  And, Ancients can have Jugs and SuperJugs and not be advanced.. they ruled the entire Galaxy.. if their SuperJugs / Jugs didn't have shields and didn't have beam cannons, they would be primative vape bait.  It would make sense that the Ancients didn't have shields or something similar.  I mean hello they did control the known universe till the Shivans.  So, they most likely just had overwhelming numbers & no one else was as advanced as them besides the Shivans.

Besides FS2 raises more questions than it answers... if you take Bosch's ramblings as a message from , then you have of questions... if they are just Bosch wondering about something, then he might have been mistaken or only partially correct.

[karajorma]

I'm surprised trashman didn't hop in here getting all pissed off at the title of the thread.

I'm waiting for him to say I did it.

[TrashMan]

CANON sources (ie. Volition) have already said that the Ancients were only slightly more advanced than the GTA and PVN when they met the Lucifer. This directly contradicts your beliefs that the Ancients are more powerful than the GTVA.

Just how much is SLIGHTLY when you're talking about a reace that had a empire 10 times bigger than the GTVA?
It would certantly have far larger fleet and the resources for bigger ships. But weaponry? Methinks they were lacking in that department.

Despite the likelihood of the Ancients having a Supperjuggernaut considering the circumstances and the existence of the Colossus, it is directly contradicted by fully canon sources that canonically, the Ancients did not have a Superjuggernaut.

What canon source?




EDIT - what's with the tread title???

[TrashMan]

I'm waiting for him to say I did it.

YOU DID IT!!!!

Happy now?

[Snail]

1) It doesn't matter? It doesn't matter? That "information" can be even worse than Sol's multiple jump nodes!

Actually, you know what? The fact that the Orion is canon isn't canon! Because I don't like it! Guess what? The Orion is now called the PuppyDestroyer because it's more probable the Terrans would name it that!!!

Whatever you think is NOTHING if it is directly contradicted by canon.

Do I have to write it any bigger?

2) How can FS2 "says" that there were no beam cannons in FS1? You still don't get my point. You're stuck in your "universe" ideas, you continue to ignore the fact that FreeSpace is a game. And please reply to that sentence...do you think would have created a .txt with all the stuff that changed?

I'm convinced that you are not reading what I am writing.

I've already said that did not create a .txt with all the stuff changed. Canonically, FreeSpace: The Great War involved Shivan ships without beam weapons. One more time. If you are looking at something from an in-universe point of view these things cannot be changed or ignored. If Volition was going to change everything in the universe to make it a 'wow' universe, as you have said, then they should go around and create a completely different game. They'd be pulling a George Lucas.

I don't know. Maybe in Mobiusland you don't understand. Read my posts twice before replying with the same thing you did in the previous post.

This is like a bad star trek convention. I mean like WWWOOOOOAAAAHHH! wtf? I'm surprised trashman didn't hop in here getting all pissed off at the title of the thread.

That episode was an alternate universe, stoopid!

FS1 does have beam cannons.    Lucifer anyone?  ofc, that's a different ship altogether, but if FS1 Shivans and FS2 Shivans are different fleets, then perhaps the FS1 fleet was on an extended patrol / not upgraded yet or something.

The Lucifer is an exception. In addition, FreeSpace 2 distinctively calls the beam weapons "photon beam cannons," while the Lucifer tech description calls them "Flux Cannons." Once again, small in-universe differences, but they can't be ignored no matter how small they are. And read my theory. There it explains that all the Shivan fleets were separated and developed in different ways.

And, Ancients can have Jugs and SuperJugs and not be advanced.. they ruled the entire Galaxy.. if their SuperJugs / Jugs didn't have shields and didn't have beam cannons, they would be primative vape bait.  It would make sense that the Ancients didn't have shields or something similar.  I mean hello they did control the known universe till the Shivans.  So, they most likely just had overwhelming numbers & no one else was as advanced as them besides the Shivans.

What I think is that the Ancients destroyed races that are similar to modern-day humans (as in 2007). They would conquer races with very little space exploration and only ****ty planet-space defense systems. They didn't need Juggernauts or Superjuggernauts. They were <<insert phrase I've been using in every post in this thread here>>. I suppose they did wage a few larger wars against more technologically advanced species, but I doubt they would really have been challenged too much.

Just how much is SLIGHTLY when you're talking about a reace that had a empire 10 times bigger than the GTVA?
It would certantly have far larger fleet and the resources for bigger ships. But weaponry? Methinks they were lacking in that department.

As I said earlier in this post, they didn't need to be advanced because they didn't fight very advanced races. They probably only fought weak civilizations. Remember, they conquered their enemies in months. Their enemies could not have been as powerful as they were.

What canon source?

A canon source. Some canon source. A very canon source. Something like the FreeSpace Reference Bible or a Volition interview.