Author Topic: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)  (Read 25151 times)

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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
  Global warming is being rammed down everybody's throats as a political solution despite the fact that the supposed effects of human activity are either a) impossible to correlate with actual climate change; or b) insignificant when compared to natural events (bovine methane generation, or deforestation from Hurricane Katrina).

I strongly disagree with this.

EDIT - one thing I noticed in this thread is that when talking about science, people allways mention honest, serious scientists. We're talking about science in general and it's effects on people, not just the scientific elite.
Therefore we have to take into consideration the common Joe and  he like who , for the lack of better word do BELIEVE in science since they can't doublecheck the data or don't want to or don't have time to. If I had a dime every time somone quoted some utterly wrong piece of scientific info to me I'd be a rich man. and yet that stuck to that data claming I was ignorant or stupid or whatever. And I bet that happened to pretty much everyone on the net a lot of times.

So if a common Joe takes what scientists say as a unquestionable truth, then it does in many ways constitue as blind belief, as much as religion was.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2007, 07:41:04 am by TrashMan »
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
EDIT - one thing I noticed in this thread is that when talking about science, people allways mention honest, serious scientists. We're talking about science in general and it's effects on people, not just the scientific elite.
Therefore we have to take into consideration the common Joe and  he like who , for the lack of better word do BELIEVE in science since they can't doublecheck the data or don't want to or don't have time to. If I had a dime every time somone quoted some utterly wrong piece of scientific info to me I'd be a rich man. and yet that stuck to that data claming I was ignorant or stupid or whatever. And I bet that happened to pretty much everyone on the net a lot of times.

So if a common Joe takes what scientists say as a unquestionable truth, then it does in many ways constitue as blind belief, as much as religion was.
Whether or not Joe Average wants to formally test the theory of gravity every time he brings it up is not under discussion. The fact of the matter is that Joe Average can formally test the theory of gravity if he so wanted to. He may regurgitate completely incorrect data because he's too ignorant or stupid to understand it, but the fact remains that he can actively reproduce the data if he so desires. Joe Average's belief is not blind, merely obscured. He can still see the data, he can still reproduce it and see tangible evidence. How he chooses to interpret or act on that data is irrelevant.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2007, 08:04:00 am by Mefustae »

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
EDIT - one thing I noticed in this thread is that when talking about science, people allways mention honest, serious scientists. We're talking about science in general and it's effects on people, not just the scientific elite.
Therefore we have to take into consideration the common Joe and  he like who , for the lack of better word do BELIEVE in science since they can't doublecheck the data or don't want to or don't have time to. If I had a dime every time somone quoted some utterly wrong piece of scientific info to me I'd be a rich man. and yet that stuck to that data claming I was ignorant or stupid or whatever. And I bet that happened to pretty much everyone on the net a lot of times.

So if a common Joe takes what scientists say as a unquestionable truth, then it does in many ways constitue as blind belief, as much as religion was.

There is no cause so correct you won't find idiots following it. I won't disagree that there are some people who believe in science without understanding what it is. Just like there are people who claim to be atheists that believe in God. :rolleyes:

There is a huge difference between saying that some people take science on faith and saying that science has to be taken on faith. You've said the latter before and you're still wrong.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
Well, if a "perfect christian/muslim/believer" can't be brought into this discussion, then neither can perfect atheists - ergo there will be a LOT of people who blindly believe in science without understanding or checking what they are talking about.

Quote
Whether or not Joe Average wants to formally test the theory of gravity every time he brings it up is not under discussion. The fact of the matter is that Joe Average can formally test the theory of gravity if he so wanted to

Lacking  expensive equipment he can only test SOME of the theories.

What CAN or SHOULD be doesn't interest me in this matter...only what is.
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Offline Mika

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
Quote

Lacking  expensive equipment he can only test SOME of the theories.

What CAN or SHOULD be doesn't interest me in this matter...only what is.


And this is the heart of the problem. In the end your average Joe is as blind as he was during the Medieval Times. He is simply using the products engineered and researched by the Scientifical Community and is trusting that what people like me write in the publications is true. The only difference is that Latin has been changed to Mathematics and if you don't have necessary background (12 years of Maths and Physics) the theories will remain as mysteries.
In the end, rudimentary Mechanics is still the only thing that most people understand about Physics. And even that I'm not sure about.

Scientist's defence, "Check it yourself" doesn't really help in more complex subjects if the Average Joe doesn't believe it.

Mika
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
Well, if a "perfect christian/muslim/believer" can't be brought into this discussion, then neither can perfect atheists - ergo there will be a LOT of people who blindly believe in science without understanding or checking what they are talking about.


I never said that there wouldn't be.

However I do take exception to you saying that every person takes science on faith because science has to be taken on faith. That is nonsense for the reasons I've posted before.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
Scientist's defence, "Check it yourself" doesn't really help in more complex subjects if the Average Joe doesn't believe it.

Mika

That's a really good point.  In this thread alone we've seen an example of that (Goober and James Watson).  Sure, he could pay to access the journals, but what does that do him if he doesn't have the background to understand the data presented (not saying he doesn't, just illustrating a point).  Ultimately, there's a level of knowledge acquisition there that is a prerequisite yet is not easily attainable through self-teaching.

In theory, all of science is available to anyone who so chooses to investigate it.  In practice, the sciences are a collection of elite disciplines managed by specialists which are difficult to gain a basis in even with access to the education and the equipment.

Of course, that doesn't mean science itself is taken on faith, merely that many of its followers exercise faith in order to be assurred that the conclusions are accurate.  Complete trust and/or faith emerges in the intricate details of the scientific method, as I've already beaten to death arguing with Ed.

While I'm at this:

Quote
Could you expand on that point? I've searched for the origin of philosophy and can't find a thing about religion.

Not really a surprise if you aren't looking in the right places - it's not a fact that science/philosophy tends to advertise.

Philosophy has multiple definitions and none really reaches consensus but it is most usefully described as the intervening form between science and religion.  Philosophy is not evidence-based, or at least it does not follow the scientific method, but relies essentially upon reason to generate logical conclusions about meaning.  If that sounds airy-fairy, you're reading it absolutely correctly... philosophy is not one of my favorite points in the history of science.

Philosophy actually has no singular history, but was derived independently at different points in time both between and within multiple different civilizations.  The reason you rarely find mention of its roots in religion is because its not a linear progression.  Much of early philosophy concerned with meaning and ethics was derived from religion as an attempt to find ways to prove ethics and morality, and reason, without referring back to a deity.  While that may sound anti-religious, some of its key players through history were profoundly religious individuals and moreover advocated complete reform (not abolishment) of religion.  Socrates was one such fellow in the Western tradition.  Eastern religions and philosophy had far blurrier lines, though unfortunately I haven't spent near enough time studying those particular nuances to give an accurate description.

Ultimately, religion gives us supernatural reason for belief.  Philosophy takes that one step further, attempting to find reason for belief in a quest for knowledge.  Early Enlightenment philosophy started towards the scientific method, looking at testable variables that affect known facts to explain beliefs.  Philosophy then diverged into the basics of modern science, relying upon the scientific method to propose and test hypotheses, and modern branches of philosophy which at their highest levels are still concerned with meaning and belief (see existentialism as a general branch or Michel Foucault as an influential individual).  The sciences then diverged again into the so-called hard sciences (mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology, and their derivative specialties) and the "soft" sciences (sociology, psychology, economics, anthropology, ad nauseum).  The hard sciences diverged earlier from enlightenment philosophy and are based on strict empirical criteria, whereas the soft sciences diverged later and maintain more of their roots back into philosophy, which is part of the reason that sociology and psychology tend to produce work that is much harder to nail down into concrete fact - both of those disciplines still aim at meaning as their ultimate objective, where the hard sciences aim for explanation of observable fact.

Philosophy was born out of religion in an attempt to remove supernatural beings (not supernatural variables, those still remained a component for quite some time) from meaning, morality, and ethics.  Some religious figures engaged in philosophical exercises, but for the most part its development resulted from an attempt to distance religion from everyday life.  Hence why we would not have philosophy without religion, and ultimately science without philosophy.

That said, most modern philosophy is a bunch of metaphysical junk that isn't useful until you find yourself in a goofy discussion like this one =)

Quote from: karajorma
However I do take exception to you saying that every person takes science on faith because science has to be taken on faith. That is nonsense for the reasons I've posted before.

Correction:  nonesense in absolutist or simplistic terms, yes.  Nonsense in a much more intricate look at issues confounding science?  Debatable.  IMHO, of course.
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Offline IPAndrews

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7121025.stm

Quote
Thousands of people have marched in the Sudanese capital Khartoum to call for UK teacher Gillian Gibbons to be shot. Mrs Gibbons, 54, from Liverpool, was jailed by a court on Thursday after children in her class named a teddy bear Muhammad.

I rest my case.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
Am I the only one wondering if her own students deliberately torpedoed her?


But yes this is a case of not just stupidity but stupidity on a galactic scale.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
Must admit, I'm all for stopping all trade and aid to the Sudan, and when they scream 'That's not a fair response!', we can simply reply 'O RLY?'.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
Am I the only one wondering if her own students deliberately torpedoed her?

Reading some of the background, it sounds like there's no actual consensus even between Muslims.

My favorite quote from the article:

Quote
According to some agencies, some of the protesters chanted: "Shame, shame on the UK", "No tolerance - execution" and "Kill her, kill her by firing squad".

No tolerance should result in execution?  Damn, there'd be a lot of dead Muslims in the Sudan too from the looks of things :P
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
Must admit, I'm all for stopping all trade and aid to the Sudan, and when they scream 'That's not a fair response!', we can simply reply 'O RLY?'.
Right, because the majority should always have to suffer because of the actions of a minority! :rolleyes:

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
With all that's going on in Sudan you'd think they had better things to do. :rolleyes:
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
f***tards.
 Muhammad is just a name like any others. Heck you could name a teddy bear Jesus and no Christian would flinch. And Jesus for Christians was God, while Muhammad was "just" a high prophet, thus human.

Stupidity on a galactic scale indeed! :ick:
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
Must admit, I'm all for stopping all trade and aid to the Sudan, and when they scream 'That's not a fair response!', we can simply reply 'O RLY?'.
Right, because the majority should always have to suffer because of the actions of a minority! :rolleyes:


Well, to be honest, that wasn't a strictly serious suggestion, but on that note, I do find myself wondering how much of that aid actually gets where it is sent.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
Not much, I'm guessing, much like it didn't in Iraq under Saddam.
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
Not much, I'm guessing, much like it didn't in Iraq under Saddam.
True. But to be fair, most of the those problems were caused by embargoes in the first place.

 

Offline IPAndrews

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
Right, because the majority should always have to suffer because of the actions of a minority! :rolleyes:

Thousands in one city? Sorry but that oh so convenient minority card is off limits.
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
Thousands in one city? Sorry but that oh so convenient minority card is off limits.
Quote from: BBC Article from 10 posts ago
Some news agencies reported thousands of people took part in the protest, but a BBC reporter at the scene said up to a thousand marchers turned out.
Evidence of media exaggeration? Sorry, sweeping generalizations are now off the table.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Would the world be better without religion? (Split from Islamo-fascism)
Assuming THAT report is correct. An that's jsut those who showed up becosue they were near/ it was convenient. How many think the death sentance is justified but havn't joined the protest?
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