Author Topic: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...  (Read 20358 times)

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Offline Rictor

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
Sure thing:

Quote
Wikipedia sez:
Paul has consistently advocated that the federal government not be involved in citizens' everyday lives. For instance, he believes that prayer in public schools should neither be prohibited nor mandated at the federal or state level.

As far as I know, on this issue (as in all others) he's for local legislation to suit local needs. And also for giving individuals the ultimate freedom to decide for themselves. To make an analogy, he would allow states to repeal Roe vs Wade if their citizens wanted it, which does not mean that he opposes abortion in principal (which he does). His view is that the federal government should have no position on most issues, including the seperation of Church and State. If one state wants to allow prayer in school and another does not, so be it. I think this is a much more sensible (not to mention moral and effective) view to take than to trying to impose either his own views of that of his party through the power of the federal government or indeed any government. Think of it as political neutrality.

Now as for his personal views, let's first of all acknowledge that they are almost completely irrelevant. Being a libertarian means not imposing your view on others, and I have no reason to believe that he would stray for a long history of libertarianism on this particular issue. Secondly, I don't think it's incorrect to claim that the Founding Fathers were generally pretty religious folks, as was almost everyone else at the time, and that the Church has played a significant part in America's history. Given that the US, despite it's many, many flaws, has been one of the most religiously tolerant countries in the world for many years, I don't see this changing under a man who is far less authoritarian than any other current candidate.

 

Offline achtung

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
I'm pretty sure the founding fathers were Deists.  How devoted they were is up to interpretation.  They really try to stay as neutral as they could in The Declaration of Independence and Constitution without angering the very religious people of the day.  Using words like "Creator" instead of "God" in many cases.  They actually pushed for a separation of Church and State themselves.

No government, at any level, should be allowed to mandate or prohibit prayer in public schools.  Setting aside time for "self reflection" is acceptable, but saying "YOU (DON'T) PRAY NOW" is not.  This should be up to the individual, not the school, the Community, the State, or the Federal Government.
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Offline Rictor

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
No government, at any level, should be allowed to mandate or prohibit prayer in public schools.  Setting aside time for "self reflection" is acceptable, but saying "YOU (DON'T) PRAY NOW" is not.  This should be up to the individual, not the school, the Community, the State, or the Federal Government.
...so you agree almost completely with RP's views? Because AFAIK, that's what he's saying. I think if he's in favour of eliminating the Dept of Education altogether, not forcing people to (not)pray in school (surely that's never done, right?) ought to be assumed.

 

Offline achtung

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
Well you said it was down to local governments.  I don't think they should be allowed to mandate anything regarding prayer in schools either.
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Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
Quote
    * Adoption of laissez-faire principles which would reduce the state's role in the economy. This would include, among other things, markedly reduced taxation, privatization of Social Security and welfare (for individuals, as well as elimination of "corporate welfare"), markedly reduced regulation of business, rollbacks of labor regulations, and reduction of government interference in foreign trade.
    * Protection of property rights.
    * Minimal government bureaucracy. The Libertarian Party states that the government's responsibilities should be limited to the protection of individual rights from the initiation of force and fraud.
    * Strong civil liberties positions, including privacy protections, freedom of speech, freedom of association, and sexual freedom.
    * No government interference in reproductive rights, including access to abortion. (Right-libertarians and Libertarians for Life usually do not support abortion, but they believe that the federal government has no say in regulating the procedure).
    * Support for the unrestricted right to the means of self-defense (such as gun rights, the right to carry mace or pepper spray, etc).
    * Abolition of laws against what are called victimless crimes: (prostitution, driving without a seatbelt, use of controlled substances, fraternization, etc.).
    * Opposition to regulations on how businesses should run themselves (i.e., smoking bans).
    * Opposition to military conscription ("the draft").
    * A foreign policy of free trade and non-interventionism.
    * Support for a fiscally responsible government including a hard currency (commodity-based money supply as opposed to fiat currency).
    * Abolition of all forms of public assistance (welfare, food stamps, and public housing).

If Ron Paul can stick to even 75% of those positions, I'll vote for him.
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
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Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
Those positions don't mean squat.

Any man who's elected president, right after being inaugurated, goes into this smoke-filled room with the twelve industrialist capitalist scum-****s who got him in there. And when he's in there, this little film screen comes down, and a big guy with a cigar goes; "Roll the film." It's a shot of the Kennedy assassination from an angle he's never seen before, that looks suspiciously like it's from the grassy knoll. Then the screen goes up and the lights come up, and big guy goes to the new president; "Any questions?" "Er, just what my agenda is."
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 07:07:25 am by Mefustae »

 

Offline Janos

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
hahahah you would vote for Ron Paul

seriously

do you hate sudanese or what's this HR180
Quote
The bill authorized state and local governments to divest from contracts and investments that would send money to the Janjaweed militia in Darfur which is currently conducting ethnic cleansing, and would prohibit Congress from awarding contracts to businesses which are funding the genocide in Darfur, which would result in US tax dollars going to fund genocide.
This passed through the house with only one "nay" vote, which was Ron Paul.
that's some good old school liberalism right there, see, right there, no more to the right, oh you cannot see it. or then it's something completely else, something i dare not to name

or do you think gold standard could be a good idea in any way, I mean tying the dollar to a METAL which's value fluctuates wildyl (30% in the last 8 months iirc) is a good idea because of WHAT

 or do you think there is a war on religion going on in america?
Quote from: RONPAUL
As we celebrate another Yuletide season, it’s hard not to notice that Christmas in America simply doesn’t feel the same anymore. Although an overwhelming majority of Americans celebrate Christmas, and those who don’t celebrate it overwhelmingly accept and respect our nation’s Christmas traditions, a certain shared public sentiment slowly has disappeared. The Christmas spirit, marked by a wonderful feeling of goodwill among men, is in danger of being lost in the ongoing war against religion.

or maybe you think Ron Paul Survival Report was stellar and definitely not racist literature OH YEAH CERTAINLY GHOSTWRITTEN weird that the ghostwritten thing only came up like 12 years after the man had marketed the thing

or maybe a presidential candidate who attends scientology meetings is ok i mean sure thing

stem cells? NO
Quote from: Ron Paul
While I sympathize with those who see embryonic stem cell research as a path to cures for dreadful diseases that have stricken so many Americans, I strongly object to forcing those Americans who believe embryonic stem cell research is immoral to subsidize such research with their tax dollars. (5/24/05)

separation of church and state NO
Quote from: Ron Paul
The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers. On the contrary, our Founders' political views were strongly informed by their religious beliefs. Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God, would be aghast at the federal government's hostility to religion. The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life.

if ron paul loves free trade why does he opposed free trade treaties and wto?
oh i remember
any laws regulating international free trade must be wrong because of [reason]

yeah but ron paul would keep his personal morals outside politics, as evidenced by We the People -Bill which has things like
Quote from: Ron Paul in We the People
The Supreme Court of the United States and each Federal court--
(1) shall not adjudicate--
   (A) any claim involving the laws, regulations, or policies of any State or unit of local government relating to the free exercise or establishment of religion;
   (B) any claim based upon the right of privacy, including any such claim related to any issue of sexual practices, orientation, or reproduction; or
  (C) any claim based upon equal protection of the laws to the extent such claim is based upon the right to marry without regard to sex or sexual orientation; and

 (2) shall not rely on any judicial decision involving any issue referred to in paragraph (1).
allright

ron paul also hates illegal immigrants and would have them deported
this is, of course, liberal if not even libertarian and morally just
and wouldn't have any sort of ramification, i mean deporting about 10 million people is easy and peaceful



Essentially, if you don't like people calling Ron Paul a bat**** insane racist conservative who tries to masquerade as something completely different it would help if he weren't one. I don't see how anyone, except other bat**** insane racist conservatives, could vote for him, unless you think PRAYER KILL EVERYONE NO TO EVERYTHING YOU WILL KNOW USA BY THE TRAIL OF DEAD

And people who say his, or any other candidate's, personal views are completely irrelevant, how's that entire Bush presidency been going? I mean, his policies should be rather irrelevant, right?

And now I will end this with a story which is not mine
Quote
The young couple nervously followed in the wake of the confident Dr Ron Paul. To the untrained eye, they were walking in an ordinary preschool, with colorful animals adorning the walls, little tables with lumps of play-doh, and - of course - the sounds and smells of playful little children. But this place was special, and the Conan-Doyles wanted to make a good impression. Not everyone could get into the Ron Paul Preschool.

Hoping to make conversation, Mr Conan-Doyle cleared his throat and brought up a subject that had been in the news the past few weeks. He prayed it wouldn't bore the indomitable Dr Paul.

"So, I hear that child molester confessed to raping over fifty children?"
"Yes, sir," confirmed Dr Paul, 'Fortunately none of those children went to our school."
"I suppose you must be outraged. I mean, he was snatching children just across the street..."
"No, no sir, I am not. As long as the sovereignty of this school is untouched, we take no interest in what other people do. For far too long community leaders have meddled in matters beyond their own affairs, and I can tell you it's done more harm than good." Dr Paul's countenance seemed to darken. Mr Conan-Doyle decided to let it go.



lol wtf

 

Offline Rictor

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
do you hate sudanese or what's this HR180
My belief is that  "live and let live", aside from being morally consistent, is the most practical solution. Long term, letting inevitable conflicts (Darfur, Palestinian conflict, Kosovo, Iraq, FARC...just about anything) sort themselves out has a much better chance of success than by sticking your nose in. Besides, sanctions against Sudan would mean ****, since China is playing sugar daddy and Khartoum is perfectly happy to let its citizens face the brunt of sanctions, which, by the way, is exactly who would be hardest hit.

or do you think gold standard could be a good idea in any way, I mean tying the dollar to a METAL which's value fluctuates wildyl (30% in the last 8 months iirc) is a good idea because of WHAT
I admit I'm not an economist and that this is a wee bit out of my depth. But limiting the amount of dollars which can be in circulation at any one time, and therefore their safeguarding their value, doesn't seem that unreasonable. And yes, I realize that all other currencies in the world are fiat currencies, just like the dollar, and that the $s ****ty performance isn't due to this fact.

or do you think there is a war on religion going on in america?
Nah. But I do think that if a country is majority Christian/Muslim/Zoroastrian/ the culture can by all means reflect that. As long as it's not the government pushing it, the US can be Christianistan for all I care.


or maybe a presidential candidate who attends scientology meetings is ok i mean sure thing
Source? I also find it hard to believe that a old man from Texas who looks like he ****s apple pie and American flags is a Scientologist.

stem cells? NO
Yeah, but this guy is against using taxpayer money for just about everything, including giving a medal to Rosa Parks. It has nothing to do with stem cells specifically and is an overall position.


separation of church and state NO
See my previous post above. In what way does he oppose the seperation of Church and State?


if ron paul loves free trade why does he opposed free trade treaties and wto?
oh i remember
any laws regulating international free trade must be wrong because of [reason]
Should I mention the fact that free trade treaties quite often tend to be exactly the opposite, and serve to legitimize the economic rape of Country X, X being some small nation which the US has strong-armed into accepting a treaty written up in Washington? Care to explain why "free trade" is now a dirty word in most of Latin America, after more than a decade of "free trade" with the US? The operative word in this equation is "free", as in "free" from regulations.

yeah but ron paul would keep his personal morals outside politics, as evidenced by We the People -Bill which has things like
Which part of this doesn't sit well with you? As far as I can see, it's an effort to keep politics at the local and state level. Something wrong with that?

ron paul also hates illegal immigrants and would have them deported
this is, of course, liberal if not even libertarian and morally just
and wouldn't have any sort of ramification, i mean deporting about 10 million people is easy and peaceful
Do you deny that an immigration problem exists? Not because they're scary terrorists like FOX says or something like that, but because its a demographic issue. Having tens of millions of unassimilated immigrants pouring freely in a country can not possibly be a good thing. Before it can even begin to formulate a policy, the US must actually exercise control of its border, which at present it doesn't. Are nations not entitled to decide who comes in to their country? I also really doubt his plan is "deport 'em all". Source?

And people who say his, or any other candidate's, personal views are completely irrelevant, how's that entire Bush presidency been going? I mean, his policies should be rather irrelevant, right?
Except Bush (or anyone else) deosn't have 20-year record of voting based strictly on Constitutional principles, being utterly
incorruptible and opposing nearly all laws that restrict people's freedom. That about as opposite from Bush as it's possible to be.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
Those positions don't mean squat.

Any man who's elected president, right after being inaugurated, goes into this smoke-filled room with the twelve industrialist capitalist scum-****s who got him in there. And when he's in there, this little film screen comes down, and a big guy with a cigar goes; "Roll the film." It's a shot of the Kennedy assassination from an angle he's never seen before, that looks suspiciously like it's from the grassy knoll. Then the screen goes up and the lights come up, and big guy goes to the new president; "Any questions?" "Er, just what my agenda is."

Seriously wish Bill was around today. I'd have loved to have heard his point of view on the current state of the world.
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
Seriously wish Bill was around today. I'd have loved to have heard his point of view on the current state of the world.
Amen to that, mate. :(

 

Offline Janos

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
My belief is that  "live and let live", aside from being morally consistent, is the most practical solution. Long term, letting inevitable conflicts (Darfur, Palestinian conflict, Kosovo, Iraq, FARC...just about anything) sort themselves out has a much better chance of success than by sticking your nose in. Besides, sanctions against Sudan would mean ****, since China is playing sugar daddy and Khartoum is perfectly happy to let its citizens face the brunt of sanctions, which, by the way, is exactly who would be hardest hit.
So basically you don't care, ok.

Quote
I admit I'm not an economist and that this is a wee bit out of my depth. But limiting the amount of dollars which can be in circulation at any one time, and therefore their safeguarding their value, doesn't seem that unreasonable. And yes, I realize that all other currencies in the world are fiat currencies, just like the dollar, and that the $s ****ty performance isn't due to this fact.
That's what central banks do. It's what everyone does. It's nothing new. No one raises an issue, because no one raises an issue about central banks fighting inflation and deflation either.

The gold standard is a very bad way in this, since gold's value fluctuations are huge, you can always dig more gold, you can buy and sell gold, and gold is also nowadays used as an electronics component. It made some weird sense in 1800s, though only because GOLD ==== PRECIOUS

Quote
Nah. But I do think that if a country is majority Christian/Muslim/Zoroastrian/ the culture can by all means reflect that. As long as it's not the government pushing it, the US can be Christianistan for all I care.
That's what the part dealing with separation of church deals with. Government does not ban the use of religion, but it cannot endorse it either. If following US constitution means War on Christianity to some, then wherein lies the problem, wherein...
You are also perfectly aware of the fact that the entire War on Religion is a huge strawman and only used to fuse religion more prominently into public life? Right to live without religional harassment is actually guarded by US constitution, so "what the people want" should not infringe upon the rights of those who actually do not want "what the people want".


Quote
Source? I also find it hard to believe that a old man from Texas who looks like he ****s apple pie and American flags is a Scientologist.
He's not a scientologist, he just attended one of their meets
(i have no source)

Quote
Yeah, but this guy is against using taxpayer money for just about everything, including giving a medal to Rosa Parks. It has nothing to do with stem cells specifically and is an overall position.
He certainly phrased it weirdly then, huh? Well, if he's such a huge libertarian then why do some of his position look so goddamn weird. But since he wants no gubmint then I guess it makes sense.


Quote
See my previous post above. In what way does he oppose the seperation of Church and State?

The entire We the People pretty much tries to remove the USSC the authority to deal with these kinds of things. If that's not opposition (I mean, USSC is only the highest actor in these questions), then I don't see what is, except flatly stating
"I OPPOSE THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE"

Quote
Should I mention the fact that free trade treaties quite often tend to be exactly the opposite, and serve to legitimize the economic rape of Country X, X being some small nation which the US has strong-armed into accepting a treaty written up in Washington? Care to explain why "free trade" is now a dirty word in most of Latin America, after more than a decade of "free trade" with the US? The operative word in this equation is "free", as in "free" from regulations.
So to hell with them? That's a bad apples statement as well, vast majority of international trade treaties actually deal with important things such as transporter containers or countries being forbidden to put random tariffs in place. You really believe things would become better if US just relaxed all of those? Do things get better when lawbooks are thrown in the garbage because there are bad laws?

Quote
Which part of this doesn't sit well with you? As far as I can see, it's an effort to keep politics at the local and state level. Something wrong with that?
Reproductional rights? Gay marriage? Separation of church and state? This would leave all those things to states to decide, if I understand my US law correctly. For a citizen it's completely and totally the same whether it's the Evil Federal Government or Lovely State Government which forbids abortion or gay marriage, only that if Fed is removed from the equation, there is jack **** said citizen can do, except to ***** and moan.

Oh yeah, and also, I found a new one! What does Ron Paul - or you - say about 14th amendment, since they're so keen on upkeeping the constitution :usa: :usa:

Quote
Do you deny that an immigration problem exists? Not because they're scary terrorists like FOX says or something like that, but because its a demographic issue. Having tens of millions of unassimilated immigrants pouring freely in a country can not possibly be a good thing. Before it can even begin to formulate a policy, the US must actually exercise control of its border, which at present it doesn't. Are nations not entitled to decide who comes in to their country? I also really doubt his plan is "deport 'em all". Source?
USA is a result of vast, uncontrolled immigration. Those illegal immigrants of yours play a very key part in the economy. Those issues aside, certainly violently deporting them - and I mean deporting people who work here and who have lived here for who knows how long - is a morally just decision?

Quote
Except Bush (or anyone else) deosn't have 20-year record of voting based strictly on Constitutional principles, being utterly
incorruptible and opposing nearly all laws that restrict people's freedom. That about as opposite from Bush as it's possible to be.

Quote from: Rictor
Now as for his personal views, let's first of all acknowledge that they are almost completely irrelevant.

But if candidate's personal opinions play no role, then those things are completely invalid in determining his value as a candidate, because his voting record is based on his (and his party's) choices, and by saying what you just said you contradicted yourself

Are candidate's personal opinions important Y/N?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 09:42:28 am by Janos »
lol wtf

 

Offline Rictor

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
Quote
So basically you don't care, ok.
Au contraire. For every intervention that has actually benefited the poor benighted people of Wherever, I can name five that did exactly the opposite. More often than not, "humanitarian intervention" is a cheap excuse for other, far less altruistic, ends. In the long run, letting people sort out their own affairs saves lives and lessen hardship.

Quote
That's what central banks do. It's what everyone does. It's nothing new. No one raises an issue, because no one raises an issue about central banks fighting inflation and deflation either.
Like I said, this is not my strong point. But I would like to hear other suggestions for fighting rampant overspending and a balooning public debt, taking into account that politicians will virtually never choose to lessen spending of their own volition.

Quote
That's what the part dealing with separation of church deals with. Government does not ban the use of religion, but it cannot endorse it either. If following US constitution means War on Christianity to some, then wherein lies the problem, wherein...
You are also perfectly aware of the fact that the entire War on Religion is a huge strawman and only used to fuse religion more prominently into public life? Right to live without religional harassment is actually guarded by US constitution, so "what the people want" should not infringe upon the rights of those who actually do not want "what the people want".
Am I missing something? At what point has he even remotely hinted at eroding this separation?

Quote
He's not a scientologist, he just attended one of their meets
(i have no source)
And I visited both the Stormfront and FARC websites. Does that make me a racist Marxist? The whole point is moot.

Quote
He certainly phrased it weirdly then, huh? Well, if he's such a huge libertarian then why do some of his position look so goddamn weird. But since he wants no gubmint then I guess it makes sense.
Not at all. Did you read the part where he said "I strongly object to forcing those Americans who believe embryonic stem cell research is immoral to subsidize such research with their tax dollars". That's individual rights right there. If you like something, pay for it. If not, don't. At what point did government money become the only option for advancing medical science?

Quote
The entire We the People pretty much tries to remove the USSC the authority to deal with these kinds of things. If that's not opposition (I mean, USSC is only the highest actor in these questions), then I don't see what is, except flatly stating
"I OPPOSE THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE"
Nope. For example, I support legalizing marijuana, but I don't think that the federal government should be the one that does. If individual states (or provinces here in Canada) want to do it or not do it, that's the proper channel. Again, it's a stand against federal power in areas where it should have no authority, not against this specific thing.

Quote
So to hell with them? That's a bad apples statement as well, vast majority of international trade treaties actually deal with important things such as transporter containers or countries being forbidden to put random tariffs in place. You really believe things would become better if US just relaxed all of those? Do things get better when lawbooks are thrown in the garbage because there are bad laws?
Except that he has time and again stated that the position of the government should be "trade with all, entangling alliances with none". He's probably the biggest proponent of free and universal trade out there. How do you manage to interpret that as being anti-free trade? The only exception being when trade agreements infringe on the sovereignty of a country, which they have no business doing in the first place.

Quote
Reproductional rights? Gay marriage? Separation of church and state? This would leave all those things to states to decide, if I understand my US law correctly. For a citizen it's completely and totally the same whether it's the Evil Federal Government or Lovely State Government which forbids abortion or gay marriage, only that if Fed is removed from the equation, there is jack **** said citizen can do, except to ***** and moan.
Which is easier: move to a different that has laws more to your liking or move to a different country? Ideally, it would be even more local than he state level, but that's not presently feasible. If conservative Austin wants to ban abortion and liberal San Francisco wants to allow it, why do you consider the right to do this a bad thing?

Quote
Oh yeah, and also, I found a new one! What does Ron Paul - or you - say about 14th amendment, since they're so keen on upkeeping the constitution :usa: :usa:
I have no idea. As far I know nothing. But come up with something to argue and I'll gladly indulge.


Quote
USA is a result of vast, uncontrolled immigration. Those illegal immigrants of yours play a very key part in the economy. Those issues aside, certainly violently deporting them - and I mean deporting people who work here and who have lived here for who knows how long - is a morally just decision?
Using strawmans again? Who ever mentioned anything about violently deporting them? Find me an actual quote or something and then we'll talk. While every country has an immigration policy, most have the capacity to enforce it. The US does not. We can argue for more immigration or less immigration but not over the fact that the government has a legitimate right to control its borders.

Quote
But if candidate's personal opinions play no role, then those things are completely invalid in determining his value as a candidate, because his voting record is based on his (and his party's) choices, and by saying what you just said you contradicted yourself
Not a candidates. This candidates. And believe me, I know how strange that sounds coming out of my e-mouth. I am just as jaded as the next guy, probably much more so, but this specific person in this specific situation has convinced me of his integrity because he has managed to maintain it despite being in politics for several decades.

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
USA is a result of vast, uncontrolled immigration.
Eh, no.  Immigration into the USA was pretty strongly controlled even up until the 1960s.


While every country has an immigration policy, most have the capacity to enforce it. The US does not.
Not sure what you meant here, but I bet the US could enforce its immigration policies if it tried.  It certainly did a decent job evacuating everyone from the California wildfires recently.

Also, it's not necessary to deport every single illegal immigrant.  That would, of course, be ideal, but we could put a good dent in the problem by just searching for people who look Mexican, don't speak English, and don't have documentation.  And, once the government actually starts doing something substantial, the threat of deportation would be enough incentive to get many to voluntarily self-deport themselves.  That would put another good dent in it.

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
Quote
Eh, no.  Immigration into the USA was pretty strongly controlled even up until the 1960s.


:wtf: So Ellis Island was tight control? You know, the place where immigrants would just line up, someone would write down their names (no documentation required) and then they could go wherever the hell they wanted?
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

Brain I/O error
Replace and press any key

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
Strongly controlled as in they only let a certain number of immigrants enter the country, and only from a certain set of countries (mostly the UK and western Europe).  You're confusing freedom of movement with freedom of entry -- they're not the same thing.

 

Offline Rictor

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
Not sure what you meant here, but I bet the US could enforce its immigration policies if it tried.  It certainly did a decent job evacuating everyone from the California wildfires recently.
Certainly it could. But then it would be called fascist and racist. Let it be known that the number of cases in which I think the US behaves like a militarist bully could fill an encyclopedia, but controlling its borders is not one of them. It is the sovereign right of every nation to do so. And for the record, deporting illegal immigrants already within the country is neither moral nor feasible. Preventing new ones from coming in, or slowing the rate at which they do, is.

Mexico is hardly that bad off. Its per-capita GDP is listed as 55th, between Russia and Chile. Developing the economy, improving social services and steadily improving quality of life seems like a much better solution than trying to get several million people across the border to the non-existant land of wine and roses.

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
Strongly controlled as in they only let a certain number of immigrants enter the country, and only from a certain set of countries (mostly the UK and western Europe).  You're confusing freedom of movement with freedom of entry -- they're not the same thing.


Um, last I recall the only ones that were limited were the asian immigrants........
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Janos

  • A *really* weird sheep
  • 28
Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
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Au contraire. For every intervention that has actually benefited the poor benighted people of Wherever, I can name five that did exactly the opposite. More often than not, "humanitarian intervention" is a cheap excuse for other, far less altruistic, ends. In the long run, letting people sort out their own affairs saves lives and lessen hardship.
So when the government decides to stop bussiness with another state that is - arguably - commiting atrocities, even war crimes, against its own citizens, it is not the right thing to do? What do you propose people do - no humanistic intervention, no governmental intervention in bussines - just what?
I know where you are coming - sanctions hurt ordinary people way more than they hurt the ruling class. But these weren't economic sanctions. These didn't even bind independent organizations who can, right now, make bussines with Sudan if they see it fit - although at the risk of losing often quite... lucrative contracts with the US central government. It's arguably the most libertarian way a government can deal with such a thing.

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Like I said, this is not my strong point. But I would like to hear other suggestions for fighting rampant overspending and a balooning public debt, taking into account that politicians will virtually never choose to lessen spending of their own volition.
That's a spending issue. In US terms, what you are looking at is fiscal conservatism, not weird gold-standard currencies. It wouldn't impact spending at all, except when fluctuations in dollar value would cause widespread economic repercussions.

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Nope. For example, I support legalizing marijuana, but I don't think that the federal government should be the one that does. If individual states (or provinces here in Canada) want to do it or not do it, that's the proper channel. Again, it's a stand against federal power in areas where it should have no authority, not against this specific thing.
But that's not what the big thing about We the People is. It's against reproductive rights as protected by state, as well as the separation of church and state.

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Am I missing something? At what point has he even remotely hinted at eroding this separation?
We the People -proposal! It's almost adamant of "USSC should not deal with religious questions", even though USSC is the highest institution that guards the separation of church and state!

Come on:
Quote from: Wiki
If made law, the Act would forbid federal courts (including the Supreme Court) from hearing cases on subjects such as the display of religious text and imagery on government property, abortion, sexual practices, and same-sex marriage, and would forbid federal courts from spending any money to enforce their judgments. It would also make federal court decisions on those subjects non-binding as precedent in state courts. The legislation would be immune to any constitutional challenge other than to the Act itself.

This. This right here. It's not about marijuana. If you think that USSC should not deal with those religious issues that are stated in the US constitution, then whatever. It would give states all rights to decide about sexual rights and religious issues, effectively ending any constitutional protection of citizens over those things. It's not about individual right, because if a state decides then to ban for example a religious way, abortion or any kind of same-sex relations, then what about individual rights - practicing them would throw you in the jail, and Fed couldn't do anything about it.

Yeah, and also this:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul148.html


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And I visited both the Stormfront and FARC websites. Does that make me a racist Marxist? The whole point is moot.
Yeah, it was just another dig at Ron Paul's personal values.


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Not at all. Did you read the part where he said "I strongly object to forcing those Americans who believe embryonic stem cell research is immoral to subsidize such research with their tax dollars". That's individual rights right there. If you like something, pay for it. If not, don't. At what point did government money become the only option for advancing medical science?
Then what does the "immoral" part do there? Is it political speak, or is it there just because? If you believe tax is theft, then go ahead and say it. Otherwise government has any right to use its money - not citizens' money, it government's money once it taxed to the government - just as it sees fit. Neutral way to say this would be "I strongle object to forcing Americans to subsidize government with tax dollars", especially when Ron Paul's hard-to-defend immigration policies would just result in higher taxes and are in strict contradiction with libertarian ideals, some of which are free flow of workforce and currencies and banishing unnecessary nation-states where they hamper the progress of libertarian economic system.


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Except that he has time and again stated that the position of the government should be "trade with all, entangling alliances with none". He's probably the biggest proponent of free and universal trade out there. How do you manage to interpret that as being anti-free trade? The only exception being when trade agreements infringe on the sovereignty of a country, which they have no business doing in the first place.
Does free trade mean that government MUST deal with everyone they want to? See Sudan for example. Shouldn't government have every right to say no to contracts?

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Which is easier: move to a different that has laws more to your liking or move to a different country? Ideally, it would be even more local than he state level, but that's not presently feasible. If conservative Austin wants to ban abortion and liberal San Francisco wants to allow it, why do you consider the right to do this a bad thing?
That's idiotic. People can not move freely as they wish and you know it - economic reasons are first, but there are other, more subtle reasons for people rather wanting to keep the government as good as they can instead of just moving around.

People are bound to where they live by countless factors, and you grossly underestimate how much it takes to move a new state - which could just put up new regulations against uncontrolled immigration, so this would leave pretty much everyone who is not middle-class or above and/or wanted workforce ****ed. It's easy to say just to "move to another country", but I seriously suggest you start to consider moving right now because the government decided to piss you in the eye. It's not good. It's not possible for everyone. "LOVE IT OR MOVE ALONG" is a stupid sentiment, and very unfair.

Also, do you believe in democracy or mob rule? A or B.

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I have no idea. As far I know nothing. But come up with something to argue and I'll gladly indulge.
14th amendment has a lot of stuff which is pretty damn relevant to this discussion, such as
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Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
and
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Prior to the adoption of this Amendment, the Bill of Rights was generally, though not universally, thought to act only as a restraint on federal governments, not those of the state, and a state's relations with its citizens and those of other states was legally restrained only by that state's constitution and laws and those provisions of the Constitution that limited the powers of the states.
and
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After the Fourteenth Amendment was enacted, the Constitution also protected rights from abridgement by state governments, even including some rights that arguably were not protected from abridgement by the federal government. In the wake of the Fourteenth Amendment, the states could not, among other things, deprive people of the equal protection of the laws. What exactly such a requirement means, of course, has been the subject of great debate; and the story of the Equal Protection Clause is the gradual explication of its meaning.
which are pretty damn relevant to the entire "states rights" discussion!


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Using strawmans again? Who ever mentioned anything about violently deporting them? Find me an actual quote or something and then we'll talk. While every country has an immigration policy, most have the capacity to enforce it. The US does not. We can argue for more immigration or less immigration but not over the fact that the government has a legitimate right to control its borders.
Ron Paul:
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Congressman Ron Paul: While I realize that mass deportation is unrealistic, I’m opposed to amnesty, because I believe strongly in the rule of law.  I see this matter chiefly as a problem of the welfare state.  The majority of illegal immigrants in this country are exceptionally hard workers, but there is a small minority receiving housing subsidies, food stamps, free medical care, and other kinds of welfare from the federal government.  This alienates taxpayers and breeds suspicion of illegal immigrants, which in turn causes citizens to form vigilante groups to deal with the issue while Congress does nothing.  Without a welfare state, we would know that everyone coming to America wanted to work hard; with one, however, you can’t avoid a small element of criminals and freeloaders being attracted into the country.  This is why I’m in favor of securing the borders immediately.  Federal entitlement programs such as Social Security are also threatened by the influx of illegal immigrants into the country.  Successive administrations have supported the so-called “totalization” agreements, by which illegal immigrants would be allowed to qualify for programs like Social Security, programs that are already in dire shape and threatening financial ruin for the United States.  Sending benefits abroad to immigrants who once worked here will cost the United States millions, perhaps even billions, of dollars.  Anyone who hopes to receive Social Security someday should oppose amnesty and totalization proposals.  The problems associated with illegal immigration cannot be solved overnight, but we cannot begin to address the issue until we take the difficult steps of securing the borders, rejecting amnesty, and reaffirming our right as a sovereign nation to control immigration without apology. 
[/i]
There's his stance on the illegal immigration. There's a line about mass deportation right at the beginning (which is basically "it's practically impossible BUT blaa blaa blaa") and then there's the entire "reject amnesty" thing.

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Not a candidates. This candidates. And believe me, I know how strange that sounds coming out of my e-mouth. I am just as jaded as the next guy, probably much more so, but this specific person in this specific situation has convinced me of his integrity because he has managed to maintain it despite being in politics for several decades.

Such as
Quote from: Ron Paul Survival Report in 1992
They wanted the cops jailed and the murderers, arsonists, and thieves
set free. This came not from the underclass, but from middle-class
blacks and black political activists, who hold opinions not markedly
different from the Crips and the Bloods.

[...]

Given the inefficiencies of what D.C. laughingly calls the "criminal
justice system," I think we can safely assume that 95% of the black males
in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal.
?

Oh yeah, and your integrate candidate also said that
- Kyoto sucks
- opposes abortion but would leave it to the states to decide

edit: Let's be fair here. It wasn't, perhaps, Ron Paul in 1992, it might have been someone else in his report which is obviously OK.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2007, 12:00:16 pm by Janos »
lol wtf

 

Offline Rictor

  • Murdered by Brazilian Psychopath
  • 29
Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
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So when the government decides to stop bussiness with another state that is - arguably - commiting atrocities, even war crimes, against its own citizens, it is not the right thing to do? What do you propose people do - no humanistic intervention, no governmental intervention in bussines - just what?
I know where you are coming - sanctions hurt ordinary people way more than they hurt the ruling class. But these weren't economic sanctions. These didn't even bind independent organizations who can, right now, make bussines with Sudan if they see it fit - although at the risk of losing often quite... lucrative contracts with the US central government. It's arguably the most libertarian way a government can deal with such a thing.

The government is entitled to deal/not deal with anyone it wants. It's when they start restricting the actions of private businesses, as with Iran, Cuba etc, that I get annoyed. Aside from what they're entitled to do, there's also the question of what they should do, which in my opinion that is: trade with everyone, interfere politically with no one.

I would also argue that if your aim is to end tyranny, the best solution is trade and development. The most repressive countries are also the poorest and vice versa. The quickest root to democracy, civil society and all that good stuff is simply wealth. It is very hard for any sort of freedom or peace to blossom from poverty and the close-mindedness than comes with it. That's the best way to change the behaviour of governments who you may consider to be bad.

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That's a spending issue. In US terms, what you are looking at is fiscal conservatism, not weird gold-standard currencies. It wouldn't impact spending at all, except when fluctuations in dollar value would cause widespread economic repercussions.

So why focus on the gold standard? He's also the only fiscal conservative in either party, because no one opposes the $500b/year military spending and other programs. The GOP has long since abandonded even the pretence of fiscal conservativism, which is exactly what the US needs if it hopes to buy itself out from the pocket of China, the UAE, Japan and others.

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This. This right here. It's not about marijuana. If you think that USSC should not deal with those religious issues that are stated in the US constitution, then whatever. It would give states all rights to decide about sexual rights and religious issues, effectively ending any constitutional protection of citizens over those things. It's not about individual right, because if a state decides then to ban for example a religious way, abortion or any kind of same-sex relations, then what about individual rights - practicing them would throw you in the jail, and Fed couldn't do anything about it.
The Constitution doesn't magically stop applying at the state level. And since the Constitution doesn't mention modern specificities such as abortion, gay marriage and a million other things, those fall to individual states. But basic rights can not be infringed. Since people take a divergent view of whether, say, gay marriage constitutes a basic right, is it not better to decide locally (like I said, the county/city level would be even more preferable) than to guarantee pissing off 50% of the population?

You can't claim that he's forcing his beliefs on anyone, because moving authority downward is an ideologically neutral move. For all he knows, all 50 states could choose the exact opposite of what he believes, or they could not. It favours no one side.

Yeah, and also this:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul148.html

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Then what does the "immoral" part do there? Is it political speak, or is it there just because? If you believe tax is theft, then go ahead and say it. Otherwise government has any right to use its money - not citizens' money, it government's money once it taxed to the government - just as it sees fit. Neutral way to say this would be "I strongle object to forcing Americans to subsidize government with tax dollars", especially when Ron Paul's hard-to-defend immigration policies would just result in higher taxes and are in strict contradiction with libertarian ideals, some of which are free flow of workforce and currencies and banishing unnecessary nation-states where they hamper the progress of libertarian economic system.

Sure, I believe that tax is theft and so does Paul. But a certain amount of theft is needed to keep the government, a necessary evil but necessary nevertheless, functioning, so some degree of taxes are necessary. I still don't understand the argument for involving the government in medical research, and area where its presence is simply not needed. If a government derives its legitimacy from the people, I don't see how it could spend everyone's money on a program only some people endorse.


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Also, do you believe in democracy or mob rule? A or B.
I may be being anal here, but I consider them to be the same thing. Democracy is defined as the implementation of the will of the majority. The US is not, and in my opinion should not be, a democracy. It is a Republic, which means that the majority can not infringe on the rights of the minority, including the smallest minority unit which is the individual, as it sees fit.

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There's his stance on the illegal immigration. There's a line about mass deportation right at the beginning (which is basically "it's practically impossible BUT blaa blaa blaa") and then there's the entire "reject amnesty" thing.
So he says that he's against deportation. What more do you want. You can morally justify not kicking out the existing illegal immigrants, but not allowing more to come in. A law has been broken, so now the question is whether to allow it to keep being broken. Those who originally broke it are already not going to get punished, since no person in their right mind would even think about deporting 10 million men, women and children. Nothing is going to happen to them. The real question is whether one's policies are going to encourage more illegal immigrants or less.

And don't get me wrong, I have nothing against immigration. I'm an immigrant myself and am friends with tons of other immigrants. But breaking into a country illegally is not OK, no matter how much of a right you believe you have to be there.


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edit: Let's be fair here. It wasn't, perhaps, Ron Paul in 1992, it might have been someone else in his report which is obviously OK.
I don't know whether he said it or someone else. But from what I know of the man, I personally find it extremely unlikely. Also, he's mentioned this guy as a possible running mate, and if you would notice the colour of the gentleman's skin you may deduce that RP is no racist.

 

Offline Kosh

  • A year behind what's funny
  • 210
Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
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So why focus on the gold standard? He's also the only fiscal conservative in either party, because no one opposes the $500b/year military spending and other programs. The GOP has long since abandonded even the pretence of fiscal conservativism, which is exactly what the US needs if it hopes to buy itself out from the pocket of China, the UAE, Japan and others.


Getting rid of the federal reserve (so the government doesn't have to borrow its own money) would do a lot more to alleviate the debt than anything else.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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