Author Topic: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...  (Read 20105 times)

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Offline Janos

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
Quote from: Rictor
"The best solution, of course, is not now available to us.  That would be a Supreme Court that recognizes that for all criminal laws, the several states retain jurisdiction. "
Which would remove protection of rights as now recognized in Constitution. Of course, if you want states to become completely autonomous - in fact, independent states - and able to pass laws that directly hamper basic rights - by removing USSC the ability to rule on these things - then I have nothing to say.

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But let's give you the benefit of the doubt on this one. Let's say that, if elected, he would use the power of the federal government to completely ban all abortion. That's one issue he's wrong on, compared to other Republicans who are wrong on all issues, including that one. 95% of his policies are still awesome.

I don't need benefit of doubt - I can point to legislation he sponsors and votes for.

He's also wrong on gold standard - it would cause an economic disaster, and after that tie US economy to mining activities of, for example, Australia and South Africa.

And state-certified basic education is a good thing, because it makes grades comparable between different states and, for example, gives a student in state A a good idea whether or not he can try to get into a college in state B. Ron Paul, however, does not agree.

Subjectively stuff like government subsidizing companies that profit from Darfur crisis is also quite bad, and I don't know about legislation which would remove certain inbuilt protections against segregation (see: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d096:HR03863:@@@D&summ2=m&.
Again, I disagree with Ron Paul.

And, of course, I can always point to the fact that Ron Paul has written this gem:
Quote from: Doctor Ron
Indeed, it is shocking to consider the uniformity of opinion among blacks in this country. Opinion polls consistently show that only about 5% of blacks have sensible political opinions, i.e. support the free market, individual liberty, and the end of welfare and affirmative action.

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Voted against http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:h.j.res.00004:
He SPONSORED that very same legislation in 1997. Of course, he might have had a change of heart.

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I think this is a tiny part of the much bigger "against student loans from the federal gov't" deal. He's prohibited his own kids from getting federal student loans. So...he wants to treat those hated Iranians as badly as his own children. Terrible, I know.

The damn bill says: "A bill to make all Iranian Students in the United States ineligible for any form of federal aid."
It says nothing about other students. It says that about Iranian students. Point me to legislation where Ron Paul has proposed all students to become ineligible for ANY FORM federal aid. You are assuming he wanted something completely different. Prove this. I can only point to him saying "no let's cut all funding from Iranian students".

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Not granting Rosa Parks a medal using government money. He suggested that if Congress wanted to give her a medal, which he believes she deserves, they would each put up $100 of their own money for it, just as he was prepared to do.
Strangely, Ron Paul has actually requested federal money for all kinds of stuff. http://www.brokenlibrarian.org/ronpaul/misc.html
However, a mere 30 000 dollars for an important civil rights figure - need I to remind people that Ron Paul is big on liberty, except when he wants to remove safeguards for them - is a huge deal.

edit: it was 30 000, not 300 000.

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At what point will you realize that the main thing on this man's agenda, above any individual policy, is extreme, fundamental, far-reaching decentralization of power. Full stop. Anything that filters power downward is good, anything that does the opposite is bad. In a modern, civilized, peaceful country such as the US, this is a hell of a lot better than the opposite.
Fundamental, far-reaching decentralization of power is not an end in itself. It is a means to get something better. Arguably, Ron Paul's politics do not lead into better outcome - they lead into 50 separate states, each able to pass legislation as they see fit - shortly put, dividing the entirety people know as the United States of America. It would devastate the economy, both USA's and world's. It would require long and tedious process to reinstate the same basic rights as now recognized in the constitution in these states, unless you don't give a flying **** about them. It would remove all federal capability to protect enviroment, civil rights, equality and freedom of choice and religion. Ron Paul does not like FDA and would dissolve it.
I fully realize what Ron Paul's goals are. I do not agree with them at all.

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Also, if you fault RP for not sticking to the Constitution (seperation of Church and State, individual rights) throughly enough, who, may I ask, is better? Not which candidate, but which US politician in general? It's equivalent to saying that Bush isn't Christian enough or that Al Sharpton isn't Black enough.
I have not endorsed anyone. Why should I? I can just tell people who'd vote for Ron Paul that "if you look at this, this, this, hell, this, then Ron Paul is not a good candidate." I am not arguing for someone's superiority, I am arguing against Ron Paul. I don't need bad equivalence arguments or ad hominen tu quoques.

Seriously, if Ron Paul tries to remove constitutional safeguards for liberty and minority rights, which are pretty clear in constitution and supreme court rulings, then how is he upkeeping constitution? "Ron Paul will end birthright citizenship", for example. What about that?

Honest question: Does Bill of Rights apply to states or just the federation?


edit:
Mother of God, I just found this and I don't know whether to laugh or cry:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d096:HR07955:@@@L&summ2=m&

Included gems:



Abolishes the Department of Education and nullifies all regulations, contracts, licenses, or privileges issued by such Department prior to the effective date of this Act. Directs the Director of the Office of Management and Budget to provide for the orderly termination of the affairs of such Department.

Forbids any court of the United States from requiring the attendance at a particular school of any student because of race, color, creed, or sex.

Prohibits the Secretary of the Treasury from issuing in final form the "Proposed Revenue Procedure on Private Tax-Exempt Schools", which sets forth guidelines for determining whether a private school has forfeited its tax-exempt status by the adoption of racially discriminatory policies.

Prohibits the Federal Government from imposing any obligation or conditions upon any child care center, orphanage, foster home, emergency shelter for abused children or spouses, school, juvenile delinquency or drug abuse treatment center or home, or similar program which is operated by a church or religious institution.

Defines "child abuse" as physical maltreatment, and psychological or emotional neglect. Excludes from such definition discipline or corporal punishment applied by a responsible parent or an individual authorized to act in the place of such parent.

Prohibits the expenditure of Federal funds to any organization which presents male or female homosexuality as an acceptable alternative life style or which suggest that it can be an acceptable life style.



It's like a celebration of insanity. If these are Ron Paul's methods of reducing the scale of government and bringing authority closer to citizens, then jesus should I laugh or cry. Ok, it's old, but...



edit 2: Oh god, the pile keeps growing - http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll931.xml
"LET'S NOT DEMAND BURMA TO RELEASE AUNG SAN SUU KYI"
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 09:10:17 am by Janos »
lol wtf

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
Quote from: Kosh
"The best solution, of course, is not now available to us.  That would be a Supreme Court that recognizes that for all criminal laws, the several states retain jurisdiction. "


:wtf: When did I say that?


Besides, 10 years ago anyone saying that there would eventually be an American Union was laughed at for being a conspiracy theorist, but now here we are. Our dear leaders haven't kept this a secret and have had at least one conference about it. Now there's even a website. www.spp.gov

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edit 2: Oh god, the pile keeps growing - http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll931.xml
"LET'S NOT DEMAND BURMA TO RELEASE AUNG SAN SUU KYI"

Haven't we been demanding that for years? Yes. Has it worked? No.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Janos

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
:wtf: When did I say that?
Whops. Wrong quote v:]v

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Besides, 10 years ago anyone saying that there would eventually be an American Union was laughed at for being a conspiracy theorist, but now here we are. Our dear leaders haven't kept this a secret and have had at least one conference about it. Now there's even a website. www.spp.gov
What is this NAO you are talking about? Is it simpler mobility of goods and people and common regulation on some areas, or full union?


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Haven't we been demanding that for years? Yes. Has it worked? No.
...and?
lol wtf

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
:wtf: When did I say that?
Whops. Wrong quote v:]v

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Besides, 10 years ago anyone saying that there would eventually be an American Union was laughed at for being a conspiracy theorist, but now here we are. Our dear leaders haven't kept this a secret and have had at least one conference about it. Now there's even a website. www.spp.gov
What is this NAO you are talking about? Is it simpler mobility of goods and people and common regulation on some areas, or full union?


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Haven't we been demanding that for years? Yes. Has it worked? No.
...and?


At this point how far the NAU goes remains to be seen. It could be just what it says it is, or it could be much more.


......and if one method doesn't work, how about trying another?
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Janos

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
At this point how far the NAU goes remains to be seen. It could be just what it says it is, or it could be much more.
Yup.

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......and if one method doesn't work, how about trying another?
Strangely enough, Dr. Paul did not propose any other legislation to replace that.

You see, diplomatic disapproval is a very common tool in international diplomacy. Seriously:
"We do not approve that you Myanmar junta guys hold opposition leader in custody. Naughty you." and then Ronppa votes "NO this shall not pass!"
lol wtf

 
Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
Besides, 10 years ago anyone saying that there would eventually be an American Union was laughed at for being a conspiracy theorist, but now here we are. Our dear leaders haven't kept this a secret and have had at least one conference about it. Now there's even a website. www.spp.gov
What is this NAO you are talking about? Is it simpler mobility of goods and people and common regulation on some areas, or full union

I dont get it, you just said its conspiracy theory and now you ask if the NAO even exists?

NORTH AMERICAN UNION
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T74VA3xU0EA&feature=related

NAFTA Super Highway
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsvZys5hF4Y&feature=related

And that website is funny. It says it isnt planning to get a common currency, but they are already planning the Amero! It also says they arent planing the superhighway either. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hiPrsc9g98

Ed
« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 06:04:58 am by Edward Bradshaw »

 

Offline achtung

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
A centralized currency sounds like a good idea in my opinion.  The NAFTA superhighway sounds good too.
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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
A centralized currency sounds like a good idea in my opinion.  The NAFTA superhighway sounds good too.

How about ID chip implants?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-PIyL3ke24
(Im using this video because of all the news clips)

Yours will be the kind of attitude the welcomes all these things because of the claimed positive effects and maybe not even notice what society turns into and its too late.  When they make it so you have to have an implanted chip in order to function in society you will be able to be tracked at all times no matter where you go. And you will welcome it because you think it is protecting you somehow. If you think this is far fetched just look at ID cards being ushered in, that RFID chips are already in many passports and in order to do many things in todays society you NEED a credit card. The US already has the Patriot Act where they can do whatever they like to you without any reason or evidence at all, if this isnt stopped it can get even worse.

If we dont resist this we will all be controlled like the plot in some SCI-FI distopian vision of the future, and its really not looking so unrealistic anymore.A plot to create a world government may be just a conspiracy theory, but I get the feeling that if that also turned out to be true you would also welcome it just like you did here. 
« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 05:43:36 pm by Edward Bradshaw »

 

Offline Rictor

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
You see, diplomatic disapproval is a very common tool in international diplomacy. Seriously:
"We do not approve that you Myanmar junta guys hold opposition leader in custody. Naughty you." and then Ronppa votes "NO this shall not pass!"

Have other countries taken it upon themselves to condemn secret prisons, extraordinary rendition of the use of torture? Have national parliaments issued stern declarations that those responsible for the destruction of Iraq will be heldaccountable? Have the infinitely wise and just governments of Europe wagged their finger disapprovingly at the monumental erosion of privacy in the UK?

No. Because it's none of their business.

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
A centralized currency sounds like a good idea in my opinion.  The NAFTA superhighway sounds good too.


Here's the issue with the NAFTA superhighway. There would be no customs checks until they get to the middle of Kansas City which will be a MEXICAN customs port, staffed with mexican customs officials, and it would be mexican soil.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Janos

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
Have other countries taken it upon themselves to condemn secret prisons, extraordinary rendition of the use of torture? Have national parliaments issued stern declarations that those responsible for the destruction of Iraq will be heldaccountable? Have the infinitely wise and just governments of Europe wagged their finger disapprovingly at the monumental erosion of privacy in the UK?

No. Because it's none of their business.

Apples and oranges.
lol wtf

 

Offline achtung

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
How about ID chip implants?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-PIyL3ke24
(Im using this video because of all the news clips)

Yours will be the kind of attitude the welcomes all these things because of the claimed positive effects and maybe not even notice what society turns into and its too late.  When they make it so you have to have an implanted chip in order to function in society you will be able to be tracked at all times no matter where you go. And you will welcome it because you think it is protecting you somehow. If you think this is far fetched just look at ID cards being ushered in, that RFID chips are already in many passports and in order to do many things in todays society you NEED a credit card. The US already has the Patriot Act where they can do whatever they like to you without any reason or evidence at all, if this isnt stopped it can get even worse.

If we dont resist this we will all be controlled like the plot in some SCI-FI distopian vision of the future, and its really not looking so unrealistic anymore.A plot to create a world government may be just a conspiracy theory, but I get the feeling that if that also turned out to be true you would also welcome it just like you did here. 

I never said I supported stuff like RealID, Verichip and RFID chips.  Quite the contrary, I'm very against them.

I do support a stronger North American trade union though.


Here's the issue with the NAFTA superhighway. There would be no customs checks until they get to the middle of Kansas City which will be a MEXICAN customs port, staffed with mexican customs officials, and it would be mexican soil.

Give me some sources.
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Offline Kosh

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
How about a resolution by the city of kansas city.......

Quote
Section 1. That the inland Mexican customs facility to be constructed on the Liberty Site is hereby named the Kansas City Customs Port.



http://cityclerk.kcmo.org/LiveWeb/Documents/Document.aspx?q=%2BSOiLiH6CV0JIMnyTK6Jav6tMSRgrBqP1uJ3dfIFWX3kFlAN%2Bx9mJ7AQvJb3w%2BBs


'nuff said.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2007, 04:02:59 am by Kosh »
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
Have other countries taken it upon themselves to condemn secret prisons, extraordinary rendition of the use of torture? Have national parliaments issued stern declarations that those responsible for the destruction of Iraq will be heldaccountable? Have the infinitely wise and just governments of Europe wagged their finger disapprovingly at the monumental erosion of privacy in the UK?

No. Because it's none of their business.

Apples and oranges.
No it's not.
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Offline achtung

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
How about a resolution by the city of kansas city.......

Quote
Section 1. That the inland Mexican customs facility to be constructed on the Liberty Site is hereby named the Kansas City Customs Port.



http://cityclerk.kcmo.org/LiveWeb/Documents/Document.aspx?q=%2BSOiLiH6CV0JIMnyTK6Jav6tMSRgrBqP1uJ3dfIFWX3kFlAN%2Bx9mJ7AQvJb3w%2BBs


'nuff said.

That doesn't say the port will be Mexican soil, nor that it will be staffed by Mexican customs officials.  It doesn't say there won't be customs checks until it reaches that point either.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
Here's the issue with the NAFTA superhighway. There would be no customs checks until they get to the middle of Kansas City which will be a MEXICAN customs port, staffed with mexican customs officials, and it would be mexican soil.

That's called preclearance, and it already happens all the time.  It's also quite successful.

There are Canadian Customs and Immigration officers based in offices in the US which are considered canadian soil, and vice versa.  This is nothing new or ominous.
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Offline Kosh

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
So why call it a "Mexican customs facility" if it isn't involved with Mexico? I have yet to see an American customs facility not staffed by americans and not considered to be american soil.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline achtung

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
So why call it a "Mexican customs facility" if it isn't involved with Mexico? I have yet to see an American customs facility not staffed by americans and not considered to be american soil.
Ok, what's so bad about that?  Wouldn't a Mexican Embassy be considered Mexican soil?  Are those so bad?
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Offline Kosh

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
Last time I checked embassy's didn't control what can and cannot come in.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Janos

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Re: Remember, remember, the 5th of November...
Have other countries taken it upon themselves to condemn secret prisons, extraordinary rendition of the use of torture? Have national parliaments issued stern declarations that those responsible for the destruction of Iraq will be heldaccountable? Have the infinitely wise and just governments of Europe wagged their finger disapprovingly at the monumental erosion of privacy in the UK?

No. Because it's none of their business.

Apples and oranges.
No it's not.

Yes it is, because those are not developing countries which arrest opposition leaders and violently crack down on peaceful protests, and of course that's also "THOSE GUYS DO IT TOO" -argument which does not in any way invalidate the original argument, even if the two were directly comparable.

lol wtf