Author Topic: Mobile fast warfare and ships vs. Heavi ships and slower warfare agains Shivans  (Read 24507 times)

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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Mobile fast warfare and ships vs. Heavi ships and slower warfare agains Shi
I'm going to stop arguing because it's clear you just aren't getting my point, which is details like actual light year-distance are only preserved in a mapping system if it's relevant to the purpose of the map.  Faster then light travel (and this is the key point here) doesn't use real space and travel between the stars requires an existing tunnel.  The only relevant information for a map of the universe intended for navigational purposes then would be systems and node connections, with length possibly indicating longer travel time (perhaps that has something to do with relative stability of the node, it's age, etc).

WRONG!
It's not irrelevant. I for once like to know the exact stellar location of every system, since it's handy to know in what region of space it's located or if shivan space is next door (possible unstable jump nodes).

You assume that's how a map would be made. Why not use a real map and have travel times represented with a number?...That's assuming travel times differ in any significant way. If they don't then there's no point in having lines of different length at all unless it's actual stellar distance.

You have yet to prove that a "real coordinate" nodemap would be any less usefull than the one you propose.


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As for the fictional aspect of the setting, it's far easier to believe that Volition looked up a bunch of cool stars/used familiar stars and didn't bother too much with researching what type they were/how the system should appear.  We're already giving them fictional license to generate planets, moons, etc, so why would we expect them to get the details of each celestial body 100% accurate?  But considering they're using real star names, it's WAY more likely they're intended to represent the real world counterparts, rather then identically named and arbitrarily repositioned dopplegangers. 

Or they just wanted to use cool sounding names.. they only used some star names that exist in RL. And they used a lot that don't. How does that fit into your reality plan?

Even if if they represent real world counterparts, who said they are in the same location? (since a lot of other things aren't accurately represented)
FS universe is not our universe anyway.


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But how many gamers would know offhand whether the star in each system is accurate?
How many would know if the location is accurate? [V] didn't bother with it, they didn't go after accuracy since they were making their OWN universe, so hanging so desperatly to our real universe regarding stellar cartography makes little sense.

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Why hasn't anybody mentioned that it's more plausible to consider the node chart a measure of subspace travel due to the fact that it's absolutely daft to try and plot a set of 3 dimensional coordinates on a 2 dimension map?

The nodemap is 3D....  ;)
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Re: Mobile fast warfare and ships vs. Heavi ships and slower warfare agains Shi
I'm going to stop arguing because it's clear you just aren't getting my point, which is details like actual light year-distance are only preserved in a mapping system if it's relevant to the purpose of the map.  Faster then light travel (and this is the key point here) doesn't use real space and travel between the stars requires an existing tunnel.  The only relevant information for a map of the universe intended for navigational purposes then would be systems and node connections, with length possibly indicating longer travel time (perhaps that has something to do with relative stability of the node, it's age, etc).

WRONG!
It's not irrelevant. I for once like to know the exact stellar location of every system, since it's handy to know in what region of space it's located or if shivan space is next door (possible unstable jump nodes).

You assume that's how a map would be made. Why not use a real map and have travel times represented with a number?...That's assuming travel times differ in any significant way. If they don't then there's no point in having lines of different length at all unless it's actual stellar distance.

You have yet to prove that a "real coordinate" nodemap would be any less usefull than the one you propose.
My point is that I don't have to, and that the burden of simplicity in explanation rests on my side.


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As for the fictional aspect of the setting, it's far easier to believe that Volition looked up a bunch of cool stars/used familiar stars and didn't bother too much with researching what type they were/how the system should appear.  We're already giving them fictional license to generate planets, moons, etc, so why would we expect them to get the details of each celestial body 100% accurate?  But considering they're using real star names, it's WAY more likely they're intended to represent the real world counterparts, rather then identically named and arbitrarily repositioned dopplegangers. 

Or they just wanted to use cool sounding names.. they only used some star names that exist in RL. And they used a lot that don't. How does that fit into your reality plan?

Even if if they represent real world counterparts, who said they are in the same location? (since a lot of other things aren't accurately represented)
FS universe is not our universe anyway.
It says to me that Volition wanted to use familiar systems mixed in with entirely fictional ones, as a basis for universe creation that lets the viewer bring their own knowledge of the stars with them (to a certain extent).  Think of it as background color that helps flesh out a setting, while not requiring any more work then entirely made up names would.  This way we have a sense of familiarity right from the start.

I never once argued that Volition placed or even intended stars to occupy their positions in the real universe: I argued that they didn't intentionally place them in the wrong coordinates to create a mirror universe.  Which seems simpler? 
    1. Volition uses familiar names to create a setting and doesn't bother spacing them accurately because apart from the names 99.99999% of the audience wouldn't know they weren't in the right space.
    2. Volition takes familiar names, but deliberately sets them up in positions that conflict with their real life counterparts, in order to create a subtly altered universe that nobody is going to notice anyways except ultra nerds who spend years poring over the in-game fiction.

Is it really so hard for you to believe Volition just didn't bother getting their positions right, rather then intentionally getting them wrong?


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But how many gamers would know offhand whether the star in each system is accurate?
How many would know if the location is accurate? [V] didn't bother with it, they didn't go after accuracy since they were making their OWN universe, so hanging so desperatly to our real universe regarding stellar cartography makes little sense.

There are no star maps ever presented in any canon Freespace materials, and node maps are maps of nodes, not maps of the universe itself and everything in it.  Saying that Volition didn't bother with accuracy and then assuming that the result was intentionally different from the real universe is far less likely then "Volition didn't bother about accuracy in positioning." 

Once again: Occam's Razor suggests Volition intended systems to correspond with their real life counterparts, but didn't put the effort into recreating them with 100% accuracy.  We know that travel time along a jump node's path isn't instantaneous.  It's not unreasonable to assume that longer lines between systems indicates longer travel time.  Therefore given the distances on the node map don't correspond to distance in real life, two explanations present themselves.  1) The node map is itself inaccurate, or 2) The node map isn't measuring distance.

Pardon me if I prefer an elegant explanation that doesn't involve a deliberate plan to place stars in odd positions and that let's [V] off the hook for not doing extensive research.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Mobile fast warfare and ships vs. Heavi ships and slower warfare agains Shi
Marcus, you (and hopefully I) have made your point clear to everyone except TrashMan. If he doesn't get it, don't worry about it. There's no point in turning this into a potential flamewar in an effort to convert one person.

Let's just agree to disagree.

 

Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Mobile fast warfare and ships vs. Heavi ships and slower warfare agains Shivans
youre joking right??? When did this topic became related to subspace nodemaps?? We are suposed to be talking about milatary tactics and fleets ! Now i have yet to understand how employng carefully planned fire zones to kill off fast and with little to no casualties at all any shivan warship is resembling in any way to a node blocade whre you have all major milatary assests tied down in one place with little to no room for manouvering!

Can anione explain this to me?
Die shivan die!!
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Mobile fast warfare and ships vs. Heavi ships and slower warfare agains Shi
My point is that I don't have to, and that the burden of simplicity in explanation rests on my side.

Nope. It's on mine.





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I never once argued that Volition placed or even intended stars to occupy their positions in the real universe: I argued that they didn't intentionally place them in the wrong coordinates to create a mirror universe.  Which seems simpler? 
    1. Volition uses familiar names to create a setting and doesn't bother spacing them accurately because apart from the names 99.99999% of the audience wouldn't know they weren't in the right space.
    2. Volition takes familiar names, but deliberately sets them up in positions that conflict with their real life counterparts, in order to create a subtly altered universe that nobody is going to notice anyways except ultra nerds who spend years poring over the in-game fiction.

Is it really so hard for you to believe Volition just didn't bother getting their positions right, rather then intentionally getting them wrong?

3. Volition just took a few cool sounding names for star system without worrying if they are real or not. or without worrying about any details. After all, tehy are creating their own universe here.

Is it really so hard for you to believe that what you see and hear in game is what you get and that RL should be kept out of it.




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There are no star maps ever presented in any canon Freespace materials, and node maps are maps of nodes, not maps of the universe itself and everything in it.  Saying that Volition didn't bother with accuracy and then assuming that the result was intentionally different from the real universe is far less likely then "Volition didn't bother about accuracy in positioning."


I don't see only nodes there.. I see system and planets and ALL information on a nodemap. Take a look on many briefings when a nodemap is zoomed on a system you see the number of stars, planets and their orbits. The nodemap is a 3D, computer generated map in a relatively far future. Putting ALL the data into such map is not only highly likely but also very easy and possible, especially with the computer tech in the future. Why have 10 maps when you can have it all in one? But for that you'd need some common point of reference - aka. star systems and their positions.
Nothing is stopping you from adding node data and drawing nodelines on a real starmap, but it' doesn't go that well vice-versa.


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Once again: Occam's Razor suggests Volition intended systems to correspond with their real life counterparts, but didn't put the effort into recreating them with 100% accuracy.  We know that travel time along a jump node's path isn't instantaneous.  It's not unreasonable to assume that longer lines between systems indicates longer travel time.  Therefore given the distances on the node map don't correspond to distance in real life, two explanations present themselves.  1) The node map is itself inaccurate, or 2) The node map isn't measuring distance.

Pardon me if I prefer an elegant explanation that doesn't involve a deliberate plan to place stars in odd positions and that let's [V] off the hook for not doing extensive research.

Pffft. You have no idea what Volition intended. The ONLY thing from real life that corresponds to FS is a FEW star names. and from that you deduce that [V] wanted a correlation with a real universe.
Thats like having a charachter in a game named John Kerry, that doesn't look, talk or act like the politicians namesake and who is janitor in teh game, and than claiming that the game designers wanted to portrait the real life person there., while it's far more likely the designers that had to name 100 charachters simply took a few names that sounded cool, or maby they took it randomly. You don't have a endless pool of names with a meaning in the setting you're trying to create anyway, so there's bound to be some repetition, a name you heard somewhere else. Does that automaticly mean it HAS to correlate to RL?
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Re: Mobile fast warfare and ships vs. Heavi ships and slower warfare agains Shi
[Grabs brain in pain]
no no no, I think what Occam said was  "ahh, so far off subject"


...


:nervous:
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Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Mobile fast warfare and ships vs. Heavi ships and slower warfare agains Shivans
Here is another thing that could be used with fast fleet formations! Well its not in game but i was just wondering could it be posible to plant or deploy ships that act as subspace inhibiters so that when a ship jumps in a designated area it is trapped there for as long as the subspace inhibitors are there?

This would make the shivan subspace tech advange 0 and would allow the GTVA to crush to pieces any and all shivan warships that are trapped in that area. This would also hinder any subspace comunications as well so that the shivans wont be able to call for help or advise anyone of the new threat!

What do you think?
Die shivan die!!
Then jumps into his apple stealth pie and goes of to war.What a brave lad....what a brave lad say the ladies in red.
 

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Re: Mobile fast warfare and ships vs. Heavi ships and slower warfare agains Shivans
Subspace jumps are caused by a ship "vibrating" in multiple dimensions within a specific frequency to match subspace.

I don't see how any kind of tech would be able to remotely stop a ship from vibrating...

Although perhaps it could send out a signal to scramble the sensors on a ship's drive and prevent it from matching subspace...
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Mobile fast warfare and ships vs. Heavi ships and slower warfare agains Shi
I've been doing a little checking on node travel times... after checking the breifings, debriefings and the missions themselves all numbers I got were in the 10-15 minutes range - regardless of the node distances.

Sol-DS takes 10 minutes
The jump from the nebula to the shivan system takes 15 minutes. (the nebula is a huge one and apparently the shivan system is very far away)
All other travel times derived from events in-game also seem to suggest 10-15 minutes.

This leads me to conclude that nodeline lengths on the map don't represent travel time.
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Re: Mobile fast warfare and ships vs. Heavi ships and slower warfare agains Shivans
I agree, although I'll point out that it took the Lucy about 20 minutes to arrive at Sol (10 while the player is catching up in Delta Serpentis, 10 more in the node itself). So, apparently slower ships means longer travel time (I know that sounds like a "DUH!", but this is subspace after all, where not all the normal laws of physics seem to agree).
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Mobile fast warfare and ships vs. Heavi ships and slower warfare agains Shi
It's kinda strange that the Lucy didn't move in subspace, but the fighters did. Most campaigns I've seen that have a subspace missions feature moving capships.

But I agree that all observed node travel times fall between10-20 minutes (I forgot to factor in the Lucy time in subspace)
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Offline BloodEagle

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Re: Mobile fast warfare and ships vs. Heavi ships and slower warfare agains Shivans
Here is another thing that could be used with fast fleet formations! Well its not in game but i was just wondering could it be posible to plant or deploy ships that act as subspace inhibiters so that when a ship jumps in a designated area it is trapped there for as long as the subspace inhibitors are there?

I would imagine that most ships have failsafes that force the ship out of subspace when they get too close to a planet. Therefore, creating a gravity well should not only force ships out of subspace, but should keep ships from entering subspace until they override the system.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Mobile fast warfare and ships vs. Heavi ships and slower warfare agains Shi
Thing is, you'd need a planet-sized gravity well ;7
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Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Mobile fast warfare and ships vs. Heavi ships and slower warfare agains Shivans
well i got the idea of a subspace inhibitor from the way the second knossos interfered with the subspace jump of the Psamtik ! So just imagine a subspace inhibitor coupled with fleets of fast poket size destroyers,corvettes, friggates and battlecruiser ! Man im drooling here! Can anyone say shivans for breakfast lunch and dinner???? :D
Die shivan die!!
Then jumps into his apple stealth pie and goes of to war.What a brave lad....what a brave lad say the ladies in red.
 

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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Mobile fast warfare and ships vs. Heavi ships and slower warfare agains Shi
IIRC, the Knossos didn't stop the Psamtik from jumping, it just made it miss slightly (8000m is VERY little in space terms). The further from the knossos, the more accurate the jump.
Makes sense really, as energy requirements for a subspace jump increase exponentially outside of the gravity well of a solar system. In the same vein any inhibiting effect would fall off at the same rate, since it would require impossible ammounts of power to cover that large a area.

IMHO, I think you'd need redicolusly large amounts of power to actually prevent a subspace jump.
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Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Mobile fast warfare and ships vs. Heavi ships and slower warfare agains Shivans
we dont know that for sure! Also the psamtik was off by 13km if im not mistaken!

Also we dont know exactly how the subspace portal managed to make the psamtik exit subspace so far off target but we know that it did! I was thinking of some sort of adaptation of the said interference to make it so that ships can not jump out/in of a specific area! However that would mean that the GTVA would have to increase its subspace tracking capabilaties at the same time!
Die shivan die!!
Then jumps into his apple stealth pie and goes of to war.What a brave lad....what a brave lad say the ladies in red.
 

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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Mobile fast warfare and ships vs. Heavi ships and slower warfare agains Shi
First and foremost it was 9000 meters.
Secondly, it was in a nebula (which is a bit different enviroment than what the  GTVA ships operate in normally)

Thirdly, just couse it caused a ship to slightly miss it's jump doesn't mean that same effect can be increased.
Insane amounts of power sounds like a logical conclusion, knowing the power levels needed for a subspace jump in the first place. 
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Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Mobile fast warfare and ships vs. Heavi ships and slower warfare agains Shivans
TMan not to be annoing or anithing but we have no idea of the power requirements for a subspace jump! Also I do agree that a nebula was something that GTVA ships are not used to operate in but then again nebula or no nebula it had nothing to do with subspace interference now does it?

The cause of the "small" 9 km off target jump was because of the knossos if im not mistaken even the commander of the Psamtik ssaid so!

You keep givvibng me the problem with power requirement now then i dont believe it can be more then powering up a 6 km long warships sending it through subspace or powering dozens of weapons sistems beam cannons etc. Think dedicated ship!

If the power requirements are that high then just biuld a ships which is basicly one giant powerplant in order to power such a device!

As i said such a feat like the one in the nebukla would be very dificult to replicate let alone make it work under normal circumstances and in a specific area! But since we already saw it happen once then we can safely asume that perhaps it can be done again this time to be somewhat more powerfull and used on command. Like a 20km area whre ships would be alowed to exit but not leave there at least not in one piece!

It doesnt have to be the size of a solar sistem just big enough to be a death trap to enemy warships. :D
Die shivan die!!
Then jumps into his apple stealth pie and goes of to war.What a brave lad....what a brave lad say the ladies in red.
 

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Re: Mobile fast warfare and ships vs. Heavi ships and slower warfare agains Shi
Not as large as a solar system, maybe some sort of construct built around a node?
with power disrupters on it to lock down any enemy ship that exited.

tell me if this is retarded.
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Re: Mobile fast warfare and ships vs. Heavi ships and slower warfare agains Shi
I dont think it is. Laying a ring around a node sounds pretty logical. Imagine a huge grid of Mjolnir Beam Cannons! Toasted Sathanas!  :eek: :eek:
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