[AlphaOne]

Oki i was thinking about what would prove to be the most efective way to wage a war agains the shivans .

Now we see the GTVA as having very powerfull warships . Sure they are not as powerfull or as fast as the Shivan ones (i think) but somehow the GTVA managed to deply most of its ships really fast in order to counter the shivan threat. However it is also true that had the GTVA been emphasizing the mobility factor of its ships they could of run circles around the shivans and outmanouver them every time. However lighter faster ships also means a decrease in the overall armour(HP) of the ships not to mention smaller sizezed warshisp and less heavy weaponry on them. One exception in this regard would the Iceni (I love that warship).

On the other hand heavy warships alow you to smash through enemy strongholds faster and can last longer in a prelonged battle. It all depends on how you use each one! However the obvious limitation would be significantly reduced mobilaty and more expenses. Not to mention vulnerabilaty to lighter classes of warhips if they are on a hunter killer mission.

So i want your opinions and sugestions regarding each of these diferent aproces .

Also i would like you to sugest or try and imagine what kind of warship would be ideal for the next 20 to 25 years after Capella for the GTVA the more massive Hecate and Hatshesut class destroyers ore more agile sleeker faster ships such as the corvettes and Iceni . Perhaps a downsize in destroyers specs perhaps a new class altoghether or even upsizinf some of the cruisers creating a newwer larger class of cruiser??

I await your input on this !

[Dark Hunter]

Well, they need some big ships in order to counter such things as Saths, but small, agile ships are also required to go places fast, either to annoy enemy forces or to take a bit of pressure off of bigger ships.

Also: "outmanuever the Shivans every single time"? Have you ever gone up against a Dragon? They outmanuever everything!

So, my thought is: both. Big ships are required to deliver heavy blows to other big ships. Demons, Ravanas, Lucifers, Saths... Shivans have some really powerful ships and the GTVA needs weapons that are able to take them out. That means some pretty powerful ships (more powerful than destroyers, in the case of Saths). And small ships are needed to support the big guys, do reconnaisance, and wage small battles the larger ships shouldn't have to deal with.

[lenard27]

You need both Heavy ships to fight the Shivan heavy ships and smaller, lighter ones to protect the heavies.  If forced to choose between a fleet of smaller, lighter ships or heavier, bigger ships, I'd take the fleet with the lighter ships.  That way I could use guerrilla tactics, whereas a fleet of all heavier ships would be sitting ducks.

Of course, as I said, a mix is really needed for any real hope at victory.

[Dark Hunter]

If forced to choose between a fleet of smaller, lighter ships or heavier, bigger ships, I'd take the fleet with the lighter ships.  That way I could use guerrilla tactics...

Except that even then they be swatted aside by a ship of Superdestroyer or Juggernaut class like so many gnats. Hell, a Sath could probably just run them all over and have done with it. 

Of course, as I said, a mix is really needed for any real hope at victory.

QFT. 

[AlphaOne]

Well a mix would be ideal but then again its already been tried already in FS2 and it didnt do so well now did it?

Also im not talking about fighters/bommbers just capital warships. I was thinking that even a Sath cand be taken out by a couple of Iceni's rather fast without risking major investments ! On the other hand the sam could be achieved by fewer warhisp but a lot more powerfull! This is dilemma for me as the only really capable warhips that are both fast and agile and have loads of firepower is the Iceni and to some respects the Deimos (someone get rid of all those slasher ( ) )oh but keep the aaaf defences they are second to none) !

I was tinkering with the idea of more specialized warships such as battlecruisers (cruiser only larger and more powerfull yet small enough to be more manouverable then a corvette) Iceni class warhisp and poket size destroyers 1.5 km long or so!


But i dont want to go into specifics . However its seems that after Capella the GTVA command is low on both big and small warhips . The question would be what do you do next which do you build more . The more lighter ships you have the more your tactics become more mobile the heavier the ships the more you have to addopt large slower tactics whych require that the objectives be of similar magnitude. You cant just sent a Destroyer to rescue a hand fuill of supply transports but then again you cand send in a cruiser since it would be cut to pieces . So you either send a more powerfull variant meaning a battlecruiser or 2 or a combination of battlcruiser and corvette ?

[Dark Hunter]

I was thinking that even a Sath cand be taken out by a couple of Iceni's rather fast without risking major investments !

Well... technically, it can, but it takes forever and any intelligent Sath commander would jump out after it was clear he was taking more damage than he was dealing.
Want proof? Play Tech Superiority sometime. There's a mission in which a cruiser and another small ship take on a Sath and win... only because:
A)the Sath was disabled
B)they were not in the FOF of its beams
C)it only had about a quarter of the fighters it was supposed to
D)the cruiser (Anya) was ridiculously over-powered.

(No, I am not a fan of Tech Sup.)

It's just implausible to assault really powerful ships with greater numbers of much weaker ships... unless you significantly out number them. Which is also implausible... especially when considering the Shivans, who seemed to outnumber the GTVA nearly a hundred to one at the end of FS2.

[AlphaOne]

So for the sake of arguement you are sayng that perhaps 6 or 7 Iceni's with a total firepower of 18-21 Bgreens would take forever to take out a Sath? I rather think they will do it much faster then even a Collie! However you are correct smaller warships are also more exposed then the more powerfull ones.  However this in itself can be ablessing since any shypa of Iceni's size ould run circles around a Sath. But i wasnt talking about uber ships of doom i was talking about the "normal" FS2 ships. Since it seems that the shivans can outnumber the GTVA when it comes to heavy warships ships whych for the most part are superior in ofensive capabilaties to any GTVA warships theyr smaller warships aside from the Lilith suck big time.


And in such a case a fast mobile fleet would prove to be a winner when confronted with supperior numbers of shivan warships. However it is also true that the GTVA may not always be the ones who are gooing on the defensive since they might even lunch a few counter attacks . In such a situation better armed and armoured ships would be preferable in combination with the fast mobile forces to keep the shivans busy till the big ships can get into position.

[freespacegundam]

To be honest, I would much prefer a larger fleet of smaller ships to a smaller fleet of larger ships.  Something like pocket carriers, corvettes, and cruisers compared to full blown destroyers and frigates.  The reason being is that you have little invested in each ship.  If one is eliminated, its not a significant blow to your operation assuming it wasn't the command vessel.  Smaller ships with quicker recharge jump drives would enable the fleet to use harrassment tactics against a larger force.  Now against the Shivans this sort of strategy might work better than you think.  Shivan ships in general seem to have no concept of strategy whatsover.  As a species they seem to apply one strategy; throw everything you've got at the enemy until he's dust, his planet is dust, and his fleet is a floating debris pile.  Using smaller ships, the GTVA could stay mobile, and thus fight engagements only when the odds are in their favor.  In addition, since the Shivans are relentless, using smaller, faster ships to draw out the Shivan big guns would be an effective way to eliminate chunks of the Shivan fleet.  Shivans have little in the way of anti-fighter defense (The Ravana, Demon, and Sathanas anyway.  Fly in circles around them all day with narry a scratch).  Because of this, luring a destroyer or juggernaught into position, then either launching bomber attacks or deploying a stealthed meson bomb(not really sure if that's possible, but it would make for one hell of a nice surprise) would enable the GTVA to pick off larger targets with little risk to the main fleet. 

Now some might argue that the Sathanas would just unleash all of its fighters to stop the incoming attack and thwart it.  The best way to handle that is to have a small fighter escort guarding one of the smaller ships, causing the Sathanas to hopefully launch its fighters while its still out of beam cannon range.  If it launches even a third of its fighter compliment, that is a significant boost to the strike force.  If said bombers are accompanied by two or three cruisers or corvettes to provide fire support, the Sathans can be ambushed, crippled, and destroyed with probably minimal loss of life on the part of the attackers.

When fighting an enemy who has both superior numbers and firepower, you make him come to your yard.

[ChronoReverse]

What the GTVA could use are deployable RBCs.

Have several "transport corvettes" tug a few RBCs around.  They could jump in, unload them, dash away (now that the weight is reduced) and use them as the Remote Beam Cannons that they are.

Then you could get rid of those crappy slasher beams and have more anti-fighter defenses (perhaps even a small fighter bay could be incorporated into the design).

[Fearless Leader]

If I had to choose only one or the other I would choose the large powerful slow ships. But but for that to work there would need to be a lot of fighter/bomber support.

[ShadowGorrath]

The GTVA can already win against the Shivans . GTVA has fighter superiority over the shivans ( kinda ) . And for the capital ships - simply target the main weapons ( like the sathanas beam cannons ? ) with the GTVA's beam cannons . You don't really need to destroy a shivan ship . Simply make it useless - disable , disarm , destroy subsystems , and sometime later maybe destroy it .

Though I'd choose heavy capital ships .

1. They're awesome .
2. You'd keep loosing lighter ships in every battle . Heavy ships ensure that it'll survive a lot of battles .

However , the GTVA should copy the shivans on capital ship design - front firepower . And they'd need a quickly recharging jump drives . Hit and run tactics would be perfect that way - jump in , fire all your beam cannons from the front , jump out . Jump in from behind , fire again , jump out before the hostile ship turns to you . Etc.

[TrashMan]

But i dont want to go into specifics . However its seems that after Capella the GTVA command is low on both big and small warhips . The question would be what do you do next which do you build more . The more lighter ships you have the more your tactics become more mobile the heavier the ships the more you have to addopt large slower tactics whych require that the objectives be of similar magnitude. You cant just sent a Destroyer to rescue a hand fuill of supply transports but then again you cand send in a cruiser since it would be cut to pieces . So you either send a more powerfull variant meaning a battlecruiser or 2 or a combination of battlcruiser and corvette ?

Methinks its reather obvious. Initially the gTVA will need a lot of ships (since it lost a lot) for system patrol, fighting off pirates, fanatics, etc.. For such domestic purposes, lighter, faster warships are far better suited (whens the last time pirates had any significant firepower?)...and you can produce them faster. Besides, there's no point in making a uber-destroyer now - let the tech division brains work and experiment with smaller ships a bit.

So you basicly build a lot of corvettes, battlescruisers and similar ships to help mantain peace for a few years. during htat time you eperiment and develop technologies for bibber, badder warships - armor plating more resistant to shivan beams, better heat sinks, meson missiles .
THEN you start building frikkin big warships.

So when hte shivans come, the friggin big warships tie their juggs and super-destroyers up, while hte smaller warships move to flank them and shove a few photon beams down their a**.

[lenard27]

What the GTVA could use are deployable RBCs.

Have several "transport corvettes" tug a few RBCs around.  They could jump in, unload them, dash away (now that the weight is reduced) and use them as the Remote Beam Cannons that they are.

Then you could get rid of those crappy slasher beams and have more anti-fighter defenses (perhaps even a small fighter bay could be incorporated into the design).

Except the RBC's would be destroyed faster than you could blink when fighters are deployed.  You'd need a lot of fighters to protect the RBC's, because we all know that turrets suck.

[Dark Hunter]

So they upgrade the RBC's to have heavier armor. Or maybe some AAA beams on 'em for anti-fighter defense.

I like RBC's... they were always so underused in the main campaign.

[lenard27]

I like RBC's too. If they upgraded them with a few AAA beams and a flak turret or two they'd be awesome for holding a line against capital ships.  As it stands in the main FS2 campaign though, they wouldn't last against enemy fighters without fighter support of their own.

[ChronoReverse]

Hence deployable ones off of specialized corvettes which can in turn carry more anti-fighter weaponry and/or fightercraft.  The idea is increasing the number of targets and making things modular so that parts could be replaced more quickly.

Big durable ships are still needed of course, but not too many.  The Colossus sustained only moderate damage against the Sathanas and it took several months to fix it up again.  If you "mass-produced" modular RBC detachments, then it'd be a swap.


I dunno, there's probably some serious holes in this idea, haven't thought it through.  I'd imagine RBCs couple with Morning Star sentries would be a really tough nut to crack.

[Excalibur]

A ship with only "engines and beam cannons" for strike and vanish attacks. They could fly very fast compared to average, and have massive firepower at the front, however, have no other turrets what-so-ever, so they could be good at and only at this purpose. A couple of these should be able to destroy a Sath, definately a destroyer quickly.

[General Battuta]

Here's a somewhat heretical suggestion, one I'll throw out to test the reaction.

Forget ships as we know them.

Build skeletons: a subspace drive, an overpowered main engine, and minimal crew. The ship doesn't need to be maneuverable, it just needs high linear speed.

For in-system combat, slap on seven or eight capacitors for the jump drive so you can make rapid jumps, and lots and lots of the following:

- remote beam cannon platforms.
- antifighter beam platforms
- missile pods - forget the slow Helios weapons, stuff them with Infyrnos and Stilettos.

Jump your skeleton ship in, shed the payload, and jump out. Repeat as necessary. If you need to, you can jump to six separate combat zones throughout the system and supply them with firepower. Think of the tactical possibilities; Alpha 1 sees a Ravana pop in and simply calls for a load of Mjolnirs on-station. Bombers attacking a convoy? Deploy the antifighter pickets.

You can use these ships as carriers, too. Equip hangar pods and keep them constantly on the move.

They can't defend themselves well if they're caught without any payload left, but even if you lose one, it's just the chassis and the drives. Compare that to the loss of a Hecate.

This is the in-system fighting variant. I'd imagine you could come up with a Sathkiller variant and a blockade runner for jumps into hostile territory. Suggestions?

[ZmaN]

personally a bunch of large heavy ships would probably be the best way to take a sath out.  I mean if you did have a bunch of Iceni's and then like even 2 or 3 fighter wings they could do it, but it'd have to be friggen quick cause that sath can leave at any second 9like what was stated before0


a mix would be better though.  you can attract fire with the smaller ships and then ahve something huge jump in behind the sath (this is, of course, assuming that sath's cannot nano jump like in Inferno)

[Fearless Leader]

Why not save the energy and have torpedoes? they wouldnt take as much power as a beam weapon and if you want to you can ram the enemy...

or better yet, build giant missiles, big enough to pack enough bombs to blow a Sath out of space... with enough of them you could even stop an invasion.

Maybe we could put Mason bombs in them.... like 4 or 5 each. Ohhh, that way you could program them to detonate at the same time, or scatter on impact to spread the dmg over a large area, OR they could be used to collapse jump nodes.  usefull some? it could save some older destroyers from that fate

If that dosent make sense I was making it up as I went.