Author Topic: Save the planet: have an abortion  (Read 30859 times)

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Offline Flipside

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Re: Save the planet: have an abortion
That's a good analogy if there is actually some definite answer to the question 'where does life begin', is it at the first signs of brain activity, after all if there's no brain activity then is the child human? What about when it reacts to external stimuli? A Human who can't react to external stimuli isn't much use to humanity, after all. So, once again, it's pick and choose time depending on where you want life to begin, and the chances are that the moment of 'life' will be as early as possible for those who would oppose abortion. That doesn't mean they are wrong, but it doesn't mean they are irrefutably right either, it will always boil down to choice.

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Save the planet: have an abortion
It doesn't matter. Even if an embryo is a potential human being, it cannot be killed. You're trying to make this discussion a matter of opinions...

Look at an embryo. Wait a few months and look at the baby.

Look at an embryo. Kill it. Wait a few months and think about the human being you killed. You're an assassin.

Preventing a human being from living is pretty much like killing him/her. No, wait...it's worse!
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Offline achtung

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Re: Save the planet: have an abortion
By that logic, every time a woman goes through a menstrual cycle, she is murdering thousands of children.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Save the planet: have an abortion
Look at an embryo. Wait a few months and look at the baby.

That happens for less than 1 in every 100 embryos.  Approximately 98 in every 100 embryos are naturally aborted by the mother's body before the second trimester.  An additional 1 in 100 die between the beginning of the second trimester and full term.  Embryo's do not have destinies, they have probabilities of survival.

I don't see anti-abortion groups out there trying to improve the health of pregnant women (in fact, I frequently see otherwise) nor do I see them heavily involved in correcting the social ills such as malnutrition that are frequently a cause of natural emrbyonic death (not that addressing those ills would reduce that statistic much, mostly it's a product of the inefficiencies of sexual reproduction on the whole).  But damn, they're good a telling a woman what she's allowed to do with a pregnancy she doesn't want for whatever reason!

The absolute irony is that its frequently people with strong religious convictions that are anti-abortion; and I do not use the term pro-life for a very specific reason which I am about to elaborate upon.

Oddly enough, religious institutions are possibly the most selectively pro-life groups on the planet.  In many cases they're almost pro-death.  I'm going to skip over the obvious history of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam (to pick on three good examples) throughout the past two millenia and their various holy wars, persecutions, oppressions, and state-sanctioned mass slayings and move straight to present day.

-Mid-1990s:  A series of Catholic Cardinals issue a statement opposing the distribution and use of condoms in a series of addresses across the African continent, notably in Christian-populated areas.  Africa contains the vast majority of the world's active HIV cases which are passed between heterosexual couples.  Death toll to date due to HIV/AIDS and its social consequences through war, famine, and secondary illness:  some 30 million people.
-Catholicism, strict Judaism, and strict Islam still condemn equal treatment of women and access to health care for women in certain circumstances.  Theoretical maximum fertility rate of an average woman: 13.0 children.  Actual maximum average number of children to average women in particular nations in Africa and in social groups denying women health care access and birth control:  ~9.0 children per woman.  Reason for discrepancy:  persistence of sexually transmitted disease and inadequate pre-, peri-, and post-natal care during pregnancies lead to high rates of sponatenous (natural) misscarriage.
-High rates of HIV/AIDS infection in third world nations are directly linked to the state of women's health care.  In regions where access to health care for women is prohibited on religious groups, infection rates more than quadruple.  HIV transmission is largely eliminated when women are at reduced risk of infection (that is, men get HIV more frequently from women than do women from men).
-Islam prohibits abortion due to the "killing" of an unborn fetus, yet many of the same Islamic sects openly support or quietly condone suicide bombings, martyrdom, murder, and open warfare on religious and political groups.
-Strict Judaism prohibits abortion, yet Israel as a nation has directly contributed to thousands/millions of Palestinian, Jordanian, Lebanese, Syrian, and Egyptian deaths over the past 50 years; those nations have killed innocent Jews by the thousands in turn, all the while extremists in both prohibit the abortion of early embryos.

So, the next sanctinmonious ******d belonging to a religious institution who wants to tell me that a woman should not have the right to intervene in the probability of embryonic development because you're killing a person should have a good long reflection on their belief set.

A basic understanding of biology will tell you rather simply that an early embryo is not yet a person, it merely has some unknown probability of becoming one.

Even if it were a person and you want to engage in a moral argument, we kill people on a daily basis for all kinds of beliefs, so I would quite willingly sacrifice a few undeveloped totipotent cells bundles if it lowers the crime rate, reduces social chaos associated with the problems of unwanted pregnancies, and simultaneously improves the overall health of women and the general population.  We do it with fully grown adults (in which probability is not a factor; they ARE human beings) on a daily basis.  Call me immoral/amoral or a monster all you like; deluding yourself into thinking that humans as a society share life and protect it, especially among children, unborn children, and those embryos with the potential to become children will not make it so.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Save the planet: have an abortion
Perfect application of Pascal's principle :yes:

And like all applications of Pascal's wager so ridiculously simple as to miss the point.

1. A collection of 8 cells being any more a human life than a sperm and egg that haven't yet contacted each other is a religious point of view. Don't ****ing kid yourself that it comes down to anything other than whether or not we get souls at conception or not. There are animals with much more capacity to feel pain or emotions that humans will quite happily snuff out without a care in the world because they are tasty, annoying or simply were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

2. Whether or not you can abort a collection of 16 cells has absolutely nothing to do with it's potential to become a human either. Pro-life believe it already is, Pro-choice believe it isn't yet and won't be until it has a central nervous system.So lets stop arguing about whether it will become a human or not. That's a complete non-issue.

3. Since it is a religious point why can't those of you who are religious leave those of us who aren't the **** alone. So we go to hell. We don't care. We don't believe in it anyway. And we don't appreciate you attempting to force us to act the way you think we should act to protect us from going to an eternal torment we don't ****ing believe in anyway.
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Save the planet: have an abortion
By that logic, every time a woman goes through a menstrual cycle, she is murdering thousands of children.

No, those are only the bricks of life. They're not a human being...not alone. :P
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Re: Save the planet: have an abortion
^^ what he said.  Eggs and sperm alone are not meant to nor designed to grow into a human.

Also, don't even try to make this a religion vs science thing.  Because at its root - its not.  Naming a few examples of bad decisions from one side isn't going to get you anywhere, because people on both sides of the argument have been stupid.

 

Offline Mefustae

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Re: Save the planet: have an abortion
Because at its root - its not.  aming a few examples of bad decisions from one side isn't going to get you anywhere, because people on both sides of the argument have been stupid.
Therefore, the only logical course of action is to leave the ultimate choice to the person with the most invested in the decision; the mother.

I'm not going to play the sexism card because I actually don't believe that's what it is, but i'd really like to know why some people believe that a woman can't make a responsible choice for her child. Because, in the end, who's ****ing business is it of anyone but the mother what she chooses to do with her body. Remember, the foetus is attached to her, it needs her to survive, and thus it can quite literally be considered a part of her.

  

Offline Flipside

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Re: Save the planet: have an abortion
It should also be mentioned that part of the reason that couples used to 'time' their sexual activity was because it could work as a form of contraception. Any eggs that were fertilised were flushed out with the infertile ones during menstruation if fertilisation took place at a particular point in the cycle. It still happens accidentally all the time.

Edit: Basically, timing intercourse is often considered a means of getting pregnant, and it can be, but it can also be used as a means of avoiding it, though by no means a reliable one.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Save the planet: have an abortion
Quote
Catholicism, strict Judaism, and strict Islam still condemn equal treatment of women and access to health care for women in certain circumstances.

Eh? Since when do catholics condem equal treatment of women? :wtf:



As for the "it's just a bunch of cells" argument - so are you when you think about it. Why do I think human life begins at conception?
Simply - growth begins at that point. The plains are laid, the development started.
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Offline Kosh

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Re: Save the planet: have an abortion
Quote
-High rates of HIV/AIDS infection in third world nations are directly linked to the state of women's health care.  In regions where access to health care for women is prohibited on religious groups, infection rates more than quadruple.  HIV transmission is largely eliminated when women are at reduced risk of infection (that is, men get HIV more frequently from women than do women from men).


Let's not forget that the HIV infection percentages in many African states are about 1/3 of the population and rising.
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Offline achtung

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Re: Save the planet: have an abortion
By that logic, every time a woman goes through a menstrual cycle, she is murdering thousands of children.

No, those are only the bricks of life. They're not a human being...not alone. :P

But it's lost potential.

I thought that's what mattered.  Those stem cells are essentially just potential as well, and are still just bricks.  There's no guarantee they will develop to form a child.

As Flipside said, fertilized eggs can even be flushed out.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 10:34:06 pm by Swantz »
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Re: Save the planet: have an abortion
Because at its root - its not.  aming a few examples of bad decisions from one side isn't going to get you anywhere, because people on both sides of the argument have been stupid.
Therefore, the only logical course of action is to leave the ultimate choice to the person with the most invested in the decision; the mother.

I'm not going to play the sexism card because I actually don't believe that's what it is, but i'd really like to know why some people believe that a woman can't make a responsible choice for her child. Because, in the end, who's ****ing business is it of anyone but the mother what she chooses to do with her body. Remember, the foetus is attached to her, it needs her to survive, and thus it can quite literally be considered a part of her.

If thats what you think logic is.... then by that same logic, a mother would have the right to kill the child at any time before it reaches adolescence.  Because a child for many years after it is born needs its mother in order to survive.  When a woman gets pregnant, it is not just her body anymore (so the argument goes).

Like mothers decisions are always infallible?  I'm not sure what planet you're from, but I personally know so-called 'mothers' that have made bad bad BAD decisions for their children.  And beyond that, of course, are stories like mothers killing or leaving their children in dumpsters etc.

So if you're saying that I believe a woman can't make a responsible choice for her child... I'd say you're completely correct.  Because women and mothers are people.  They can be stupid.  They can be selfish.  They can be evil.  Just like everybody else.

 

Offline Mefustae

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Re: Save the planet: have an abortion
Just like everybody else.
Exactly! So why should the choice be up to an arbitrary body of people that are similarly stupid, selfish and evil? If we're all stupid, selfish and evil - and we are - then I must pose the question yet again: Why is it so obscene to leave the ultimate choice in this matter to the person with the most invested in the decision; namely, the mother?

 
Re: Save the planet: have an abortion
Just like everybody else.
Exactly! So why should the choice be up to an arbitrary body of people that are similarly stupid, selfish and evil? If we're all stupid, selfish and evil - and we are - then I must pose the question yet again: Why is it so obscene to leave the ultimate choice in this matter to the person with the most invested in the decision; namely, the mother?

You and I are thinking alike, my friend.  Lets just abolish government and laws completely because the person who knows best is always the person present.  ANARCHY ANARCHY ANARCHY

(on a slightly less sarcastic note... wouldn't the person with the most invested in the decision be.... the child?  I'm just asking)

 

Offline Mefustae

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Re: Save the planet: have an abortion
:wtf:

 
Re: Save the planet: have an abortion
 :wtf: :wtf:

 

Offline Mefustae

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Re: Save the planet: have an abortion
(on a slightly less sarcastic note... wouldn't the person with the most invested in the decision be.... the child?  I'm just asking)
Oh, right, how could I have forgotten. The "child", which may or may not be considered an actual human being, and regardless has no voice of opinion of its own! You're right, that little foetus does have more invested in the decision, but unfortunately it hasn't got a mouth, vocal cords, or even a brain with which for formulate an opinion, let alone express it. Therefore, as in the modern legal world, when a child is incapable of making a decision, the matter defaults to the parent.

And yet, you would have that decision default to an arbitrary group of strangers completely ignorant of the individual situation the woman and the foetus are in. Where exactly is the logic in that?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 11:42:31 pm by Mefustae »

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Save the planet: have an abortion
It should also be mentioned that part of the reason that couples used to 'time' their sexual activity was because it could work as a form of contraception. Any eggs that were fertilised were flushed out with the infertile ones during menstruation if fertilisation took place at a particular point in the cycle. It still happens accidentally all the time.

That's actually a very good point Flipside. Because the Roman Catholic church doesn't agree with other forms of contraception it supports the use of the Rhythm Method and other similar Natural Family Planning methods of contraception. Furthermore the Catholic church doesn't even allow withdrawal methods of contraception. The sperm must end up in the vagina.

So in other words if you believe that the life begins at conception the fact is that the Catholic Church's position on contraception is take no steps to prevent the formation of new lives and just hope the body rejects them in time so they die. If you believe that life begins at conception then this practice has ended more lives than abortion ever will. So before having a go at everyone else Catholics need to take a good long look at their religion and at the very least start allowing withdrawal as a method of contraception.

Hell even the ****ing Iranians allow that one! :rolleyes:
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Re: Save the planet: have an abortion
(on a slightly less sarcastic note... wouldn't the person with the most invested in the decision be.... the child?  I'm just asking)
Oh, right, how could I have forgotten. The "child", which may or may not be considered an actual human being, and regardless has no voice of opinion of its own! You're right, that little foetus does have more invested in the decision, but unfortunately it hasn't got a mouth, vocal cords, or even a brain with which for formulate an opinion, let alone express it. Therefore, as in the modern legal world, when a child is incapable of making a decision, the matter defaults to the parent.

And yet, you would have that decision default to an arbitrary group of strangers completely ignorant of the individual situation the woman and the foetus are in. Where exactly is the logic in that?

You're assuming an awful lot by saying it has no opinion of its own.  And because it can't speak, it doesn't deserve life?  Shall we euthanize the blind and deaf?  And who says it is incapable of making a decision?  I have friends who are mothers who would wholeheartedly disagree.  I've felt the kicks the 'fetus' can make as evidence.  You're just going back to the old conceited argument that you KNOW that an embryo can't be alive.

Look, I'm all against the government sticking their nose into our lives, but on matters of life and death - I think that is one of the few areas where the government -should- have a say.  imo - Time and energy should be spent on adoptions if so needed - not abortion clinics.