[Ryan]

The GTVA cut of all acess to Capella because of the Shivan fleet, right?

They had the Firepower to fight them. We saw what missles could do to there main beam weapons, and they have nothing to defend the back of there ships. They also have those cool beam turrets they used against the Neo-terran front in one of the missions.

The First thing the GTVA should have done when they found the first knossos portal was secure it with those beam cannons and afew corvettes. Not even a mighty Sathanas can last long under that much firepower. They could have crippled the Shivan fleet just by jumping in behind the Juggernaut, not right infront of it's main cannons. Anybody else agree?

[Mobius]

Eh? They didn't have the firepower to fight the Sathanas fleet! And even if they had it, they would have suffered major losses!

[Dark Hunter]

They might fight off a couple Sathanes that way... but 80? Come on! When you are outnumbered that much it is simply an unstoppable force.

You forget that the Saths had attendant fleets "flooding into Gamma Draconis"* behind them. If we figure just 2 destroyers per Sath, that's over 150 destroyers! And you can double that number for corvettes and at least triple it for cruisers. Compare to the GTVA's total combined fleets of about (I'm making an educated guess) no more than 40 destroyers. Do the math. The GTVA would've been annihilated.

And a Sath still stands up pretty well against a combined assault. In Blue Planet a Sath comes under fire from two destroyers, three corvettes, and at least three wings of bombers carrying the most powerful bombs in the arsenal. Still took over five minutes to kill the blasted thing, and it didn't even start at full health!


*As stated by late-game briefing.

[Mobius]

I don't think there were 150 or so destroyers, I think of a massive number of spacecraft. The Colossus can house 60 wings of spacecraft and the Sathanas could have an even bigger fighterbay. 80 Juggernauts should have an incredible attacking power. I don't think the GTVA could fight thousands of bombers. And remember that GTVA pilots aren't all supposed to be Alpha 1, just as sure as Shivan pilots aren't bad in dogfights. Don't confuse the game with the Universe and watch the FS2 intro.

[Hellstryker]

Canonly, i believe that it would have been fraking impossible. HOWEVER.. from our, the players, point of view, it would've been easy. i figure maybe 1 wing of bombers per sath, and keep in mind wings can always reload.

[Dark Hunter]

@Mobius: To be fair, we never see the massive fleets of destroyers I'm talking about, but it makes sense. The briefing references the Shivans pouring into GC... after all the Saths came through. So obviously there were quite a number of ships following them.

Regardless of the actual number, my point is still the same: the GTVA was hopelessly outnumbered and would have been wiped out.

[Mobius]

That's a point of view you should never consider. It's a n00bish point of view far from reality.

No matter of how skilled the pilot is, a bomber can't survive a dogfight with a wing of fighters.

@Mobius: To be fair, we never see the massive fleets of destroyers I'm talking about, but it makes sense. The briefing references the Shivans pouring into GC... after all the Saths came through. So obviously there were quite a number of ships following them.

Regardless of the actual number, my point is still the same: the GTVA was hopelessly outnumbered and would have been wiped out.

No, but we see plenties of Shivan wings. That's why my theory makes more sense. The Shivans use their destroyer like oversized cruisers and deploy them when necessary. In Into the Lion's Den we see a Ravana, the Nebiros. The same destroyer conducts an assault against the Headquarters. Why the Nebiros? Why not one of the dozens of destroyers that, according to you, were fighting the GTVA in Capella? And why don't we see Shivan destroyers in other missions like Clash of the Titans II and Apocalypse?

[Dark Hunter]

I didn't say any of those destroyers had actually entered the conflict yet. I just said they were coming.

[Mobius]

Uh? But the Shivans knew that Capella was about to go supernova. I accept the sacrifice of the forces fighting the GTVA, they were only forcing them to stay in system. This kind of sacrifice is acceptable. Forces entering the system after the explosion would be lost, with no avail.

[TrashMan]

Is there any canoniacal mention of the skill of shivan fighter pilots at all?

[Dark Hunter]

Uh? But the Shivans knew that Capella was about to go supernova. I accept the sacrifice of the forces fighting the GTVA, they were only forcing them to stay in system. This kind of sacrifice is acceptable. Forces entering the system after the explosion would be lost, with no avail.

Did they?

That leads to my theory that Capella was not supposed to go boom. The Shivans made an error.

[Steel Prophet]

And what (accordging to your theory) were they trying to do then?

[General Battuta]

Pretty much any discussion on this topic consists entirely of theory.

The only people who are definitively wrong are the people who claim that they're definitively right.

[Polpolion]

No matter of how skilled the pilot is, a bomber can't survive a dogfight with a wing of fighters.[/i]

I'm not sure what spectrum of skill your playing on, but I've refuted that statement many times.

[Kie99]

The GTVA cut of all acess to Capella because of the Shivan fleet, right?

They had the Firepower to fight them. We saw what missles could do to there main beam weapons, and they have nothing to defend the back of there ships. They also have those cool beam turrets they used against the Neo-terran front in one of the missions.

The First thing the GTVA should have done when they found the first knossos portal was secure it with those beam cannons and afew corvettes. Not even a mighty Sathanas can last long under that much firepower. They could have crippled the Shivan fleet just by jumping in behind the Juggernaut, not right infront of it's main cannons. Anybody else agree?

They didn't have anything like the firepower to defeat them.  If the Sathanes had gone around in groups of two they could watch each other's backs and raze planets simultaneously.  There're also the hundreds of fighters they carry, and the massive escort fleets they would have with them.  If all 80 stuck together the GTVA would be utterly arse-raped.  Your Mjolnirs + Corvettes idea is flawed, the Shivans would just clear the RBCs with fighters and bombers then send Saths through.

Sathanes also have an LRed on their rear, which is a Ravana's main armament.  2 Hecates will be long dead before they can deal enough damage to destroy a Sath.  You're also completely ignoring the Shivans' massive firepower advantage and additional fleet assets to the Sathanes.

[Retsof]

*Coming up with Shivan Error Theory as I write this.*
     The Shivans were bombarding the star with subspace waves, then at the end they make various strange subspace rings or portals or something.  Maybe they were attempting to channel the energy of the star into subspace, the reason for the small pulses was to get the star into a synchronous vibration with subspace, thus making it that much easier to transfer the energy, or perhaps taking the entire star into subspace.  But the Shivans made a miscalculation, and the sathanas portals collapsed, perhaps sending a cataclysmic subspace pressure wave straight to the core of the star.  The balance between gravity and radiation is upset, the star partially collapses on to the core and rebounds in a massive explosion.  Most of the Sathanas fleet was able to escape while a few stayed behind to keep the star in check long enough for the rest to leave.

It may be completely unreasonable, but Dark Hunter's idea intrigued me.

[Agent_Koopa]

The problem is that many of the juggernauts warped out. Where were they going? Unless they made an intergalactic node or something, there's no way to escape the confines of the system, which would have been totally cleansed.

[Dark Hunter]

I think they were doing something similar to that, yes.

My theory isn't new. IIRC, the Shivan Manifesto has a similar idea on what the Shivans were doing to that star, which is where I got the idea.

Now, there are a very great number of things in the Manifesto I don't agree with, but with that particular part of it, I do agree.

[IceFire]

Yeah I think that the GTVA was completely screwed if they were to fight that many ships.  The 80 Sathanas plus supporting ships was a complete and utter end game for the Shivans had they even used them to invade the GTVA systems.  Like I keep saying...if the intention was to destroy the Terrans and Vasudans they would not have bottled themselves up in Capella and they probably could have wiped out Terrans and Vasudans in pretty short order.  I'm sure the number was meant to both be impressive and send the message that the Shivans are essentially undefeatable.

[Mad Bomber]

The problem is that many of the juggernauts warped out. Where were they going? Unless they made an intergalactic node or something, there's no way to escape the confines of the system, which would have been totally cleansed.

Maybe they just waited in subspace for a few minutes, long enough for the shockwave to pass them by. Sathanas hulls are strong enough to absorb high-energy beam cannons, and though they would take damage passing through a highly-ionized radioactive field of several thousand degrees ambient temperature, I think juggernaughts of that size could probably have survived long enough to get back to Gamma Drac.