[Hyper Ion]

Okay, let's assume for a moment that the nebula beyond Gamma Draconis was the result of a Shivan-triggered supernova. Let's also take into account Bosch's estimation that the supernova occurred 8,000 years prior to 'current events'. Finally, the last item for the table, the Ancients' destruction, also, 8,000 years prior to 'current events'.

How did the Second Knossos get in the nebula system if a supernova occurred there some time around the Ancients' demise? Give or take a few hundred years in between the events, I'm having trouble figuring out this little paradox and am surprised it hasn't been considered.

Case 1 involves the Knossos network already being established before the Shivan encounter. If this is the case, wouldn't the supernova caused by the Shivans have destroyed the jump gate? I'm certain that if three insignificant meson bombs could destroy the portal, a blast of a supernova would most certainly wipe it out, if it not cripple the device like the initial shockwave did to the Deimos and Moloch. Either way, that Knossos shouldn't work anymore if Case 1 is true.

Case 2 involves the Knossos network being established after the Shivan encounter and after the supernova. Now, if this seems probable to you, bear with me. The Ancients' view of the Shivans was that they were the almighty avenging horror of the cosmos. If they supernova'd the star in that now-dead system, what possible reason would the Ancients have for going back to that place. Even if they did want to make the Knossos network to explore what sort of Shivan activity was going on beyond the abyss, how would the ships survive the super-heated cloud? It takes centuries if not millenia for these nebulae to cool down. By that time, the Shivans have killed off the Ancients.

Case 3 involves the Shivans rebuilding the Knossos network, perhaps bringing in one of the devices from out of system. The problem with this Case is the Shivans themselves. Since when did they, for a xenocidal terror, use other species' technology? Sure, they travel via the Knossos devices, but I feel that's because they see the devices as jump nodes. It just so happens there's an old enemy's artifact making it possible, but the Shivans ignore that fact.

Case 4 proposes a whacky theory in which Bosch helps the Shivans build a Knossos from recovered pieces. This is whacky because it's... whacky. How would Bosch sneak the pieces through a GTVA secured node? How would this newly assembled Knossos stabilize a node that quickly anyways, while allowing enough time to call in the Sathanas Armada? Lastly, there's no evidence that is even remotely related to this theory... which is whacky.

Case 5 involves time loops. I won't explain as this isn't a real proposition for why the Second Knossos exists.

[Sarafan]

Case 0: it's a game.

[Hades]

What if the star was already been in a super nova then the ancients started build the Knossos network.

[darkdaej]

that is the most likely theory.  there is no reason to believe that any nodes the Ancients might have used and that collapsed over time (which would have required the building of a knossos device... i.e: in gamma draconis) wouldnt lead to a system already occupied by nebulae.  Maybe the nebula's system(man it'd be nice to know which nebula it is) also contained an unstable node which required a 2nd device to be built to stabilize it.  The third Knossos in the Twin-Star System you explore for 15 minutes with Lt. Comm Snipes in that lasp loop mission would lead to yet another system.

Another thing that makes it possible:

If the GTVA was forced to collapse both the Epsilon Pegasi and Vega nodes using decommissionned Orions packed with meson bombs, it means the destruction of a star wouldnt automatically cause the destruction of the nodes.  Besides, that wouldn't make any sense.  If anything, I believe the Shivans would NEVER willingly collapse a subspace corridor.

[General Battuta]

Maybe the Knossos self-repair?

No real support for that theory, however.

I don't know. This is an excellent question (and that Case Zero is cheating, and takes the fun out of it!)

[Polpolion]

SIGH...

I hate when you know these things would be explained in a sequel, yet no sequel will ever exist. These things take the fun out of almost every single discussion.

[ssmit132]

Didn't it say in the game somewhere (I remember Petrarch saying it) that the Ancients first encountered the Shivans in the Nebula?

[terran_emperor]

Said that the Gamma Draconis-Nebula node led to the section of the galaxy where the Ancients first en****ered the shivans.

My interpetation of this was:

The nebula was the first stop on the road that led the ancients to the Shivans...

Analogy time: Roads= jump nodes
City=Star system

the ancients army start out on the road from Edinburgh to Canturberry...
The army then stops at the next big city on the route, say Newcastle...Newcastle = Nebula...
They continue south, stoping off at the next city Leeds (Binary system)...
The Shivans are either waiting in Melton Mowbray area or active in the area ie a few patrols....
Cambridge, the next big city is positivly swarming with shivan troops...

Just because the Nebula was the first stop on the route, it doesnt mean that that was where the shivans first encountered by the Ancients

The ancients build the knossos and enter the nebula and start exploring.
They then find an unstable node, set up the 2nd Knossos and travel to the next system (the Binary System).
After they setup Knossos 3 in the Binary system, they either encounter the shivans who were waiting on the other side (Think something like the Aliens from B5: Thirdspace), or shivans started

[General Battuta]

I think the easiest explanation is that the Knossos was actually outside the most destructive blast range of the supernova, and that the nebula has since diffused to the point where it encompasses the Knossos.

Nebulae are big.

[Hellstryker]

I agree with the last statement

[Hades]

Then how come it was in the nebula?
It would not have effected it if it wasn't in the nebula.

[General Battuta]

Because the nebula expanded over time.

[Snail]

I think the easiest explanation is that the Knossos was actually outside the most destructive blast range of the supernova, and that the nebula has since diffused to the point where it encompasses the Knossos.

Nebulae are big.

I think that's the most reasonable theory.

Or, the Knossos was constructed afterwards.

[Goober5000]

I think the easiest explanation is that the Knossos was actually outside the most destructive blast range of the supernova, and that the nebula has since diffused to the point where it encompasses the Knossos.

Nebulae are big.

This makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately, the Knossos has to be relatively close (i.e. within the boundaries of a standard solar system, according to the FS2 tech database) to the parent star to be accessible via an intrasystem subspace jump.  It's not clear whether "relatively close" is far enough away for the shockwave to sufficiently dissipate.

Another possibility is that the Knossos was installed after-the-fact in order to "lock the door" as the Ancients retreated.  This, of course, presupposes the controversial theory that Knossoi can act as node destabilizers.

[Snail]

This makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately, the Knossos has to be relatively close (i.e. within the boundaries of a standard solar system, according to the FS2 tech database) to the parent star to be accessible via an intrasystem subspace jump.  It's not clear whether "relatively close" is far enough away for the shockwave to sufficiently dissipate.

Well it's a nebula so maybe it's slightly different. Nebulae are big, but maybe there's some extra gravitational stuff that allows the GTVA to go to the further reaches of the nebula. Or maybe there are forming suns in the nebula which can be used as the gravitational "center" thing for subspace jumps.

Another possibility is that the Knossos was installed after-the-fact in order to "lock the door" as the Ancients retreated.  This, of course, presupposes the controversial theory that Knossoi can act as node destabilizers.

I kind of hate that theory, myself. The Knossos in Gamma Drax was activated after the Trinity arrived, that's why it wasn't detected by the Erikson. Then the Shivans came. The Knossos is a stabilizer, not a lock.

I was under the impression when I first played the game, that the Shivans blew up the star of the Nebula, the Ancients had a look-see through the portal, went around poking into Gamma Drax, then the Shivans kicked their ass.

The plural of Knossos is Knossoi? Cool. XD

[Goober5000]

Well it's a nebula so maybe it's slightly different. Nebulae are big, but maybe there's some extra gravitational stuff that allows the GTVA to go to the further reaches of the nebula. Or maybe there are forming suns in the nebula which can be used as the gravitational "center" thing for subspace jumps.

You forget that we're assuming they built the Knossos before the star got nebularized.

Of course, if the star was huge, the maximum range for intrasystem subspace jumps is increased.  But the exposive strength is increased at the same time, so it's a question of which factor wins out.

Ultimately, we may not be able to settle on a definite answer.  Unless, of course, we break the 4th wall and call it a plot hole that didn't consider.

I was under the impression when I first played the game, that the Shivans blew up the star of the Nebula, the Ancients had a look-see through the portal, went around poking into Gamma Drax, then the Shivans kicked their ass.

If the Shivans started immediately kicking ass, then why did the Ancients bother constructing Knossoi in the nebula and in the binary system?

The plural of Knossos is Knossoi? Cool. XD

Yup.  Learned that from Ace.  It's Greek, like Sathanas, albeit with a different declension.

[Snail]

You forget that we're assuming they built the Knossos before the star got nebularized.

Of course, if the star was huge, the maximum range for intrasystem subspace jumps is increased.  But the exposive strength is increased at the same time, so it's a question of which factor wins out.

Ultimately, we may not be able to settle on a definite answer.  Unless, of course, we break the 4th wall and call it a plot hole that didn't consider.

I always thought that the Ancients are more advanced than the GTVA in the area of subspace...

If the Shivans started immediately kicking ass, then why did the Ancients bother constructing Knossoi in the nebula and in the binary system?

Maybe the Ancients wanted to do more poking around, but then got their asses kicked.

[TrashMan]

Nebulas are HUGE - they can easily encompass a few star systems...are we even sure the origin of this nebula (the star that went boom) was in the same system as the Konossos? It could the the system next to it went kabloie .

Alternativly, it's ROUGHLY 8000 years, so it's possible that the star went boom, a 100-200 years later the Anicents set up a knososs, only to be chased away by the shivies.

[Snail]

Alternativly, it's ROUGHLY 8000 years, so it's possible that the star went boom, a 100-200 years later the Anicents set up a knososs, only to be chased away by the shivies.

Methinkies this.

[terran_emperor]

Actually the only reason for thinking that the shivans created the nebula is because of bosch's supposition that the Pharohs saw this. :v:Never confirm this.

For all we know, the nebula could be on the other side of the galaxy ~ 100k lightyears or in another galaxy all together