[AlphaOne]

well like was posted above why get rid of something that is actualy worth its money and is actualy good at what it claims to be a DESTROYER .

And the Orion is just such a ship it is a destroyer of capships. Hell tha Orion given the right circumstances could take out even a Ravana with ease .

The fact remains that while Orions in theyr current form will not be build anymore i believe that some sort of upgraded Orion will come out of the shypyards perhaps a second generation of Orions incorporating the latest tech from the GTVA R&D departements with emphasis on the anti-cap shi abilaties. Most definetly in the spirit of FS its aaaf defences wond be that great but i bet they will be a hell of a lot more powerfull then what the current Orion has.

Also I believe that a 20 to 25 years time span for rebuilding replacing etc of the GTVA ships is a bit too long since the GTVA doesnt have to do any major reconstructing this time . Also whyle a I do agree that the GTVA did lose a lot of ships to both the NTF and the Shivans the losses are not that critical as to force the GTVA into chaos.

I mean a army can loose up to 60% of its forces and still be efective in what it has to do and that is ..police action for the moment for the GTVA ships.

I believe that the GTVA lost about 35 to 50% of its warships these are indee very serious losses but when considering that the GTVA fleet total fleet i mean was well huge compared to that of the FS1 era the losse arent that catastrophic.

All these ships can be replaced if all shipyards and production facilaties get into full wartime production in under 2 or 3 years time.  Max 5 when considering they have to be crewed and stuff. The academies are still tehre the training schools are still there so at least one batch of fresh officesrs and pilots should be exiting every academay training institution every year.


Even with just 12 academies and training facilaties in place each handeling about 3000 men per year that still puts the GTVA at a new officer/pilots per year of about a total 72.000 men each year. That is asuming they have just 12 of them and asuming they actualy dont have any reserve pilots officers etc. Whcih i find it hard to believe. I believe that the biggest problem facing the GTVA is not the lack of trained officers but the lack of ships to put them on. However after capella the GTVA industry and R&D facilaties will most definetly go into full swing thus making the replacement of actual ships and materials pretty simple. The refugeez from capella can easely be relocated to the newer sistyem where labour is short and are underpopulated.

When you think about it the GTVA got off this time with the equivalent of a slap on the face from the shivans compared to FS1 !

[S-99]

All of the gtva weren't at the capella sealing. Losing 60 to 35% of the gtva forces that were stationed at capella and nearby makes more sense. The gtva is not tiny, it's huge. But, making a second generation re-hash newer version of the orion would be cool and can likely happen. About the only real setback is what will happen to the economy after capella. That'll probably put ship building and other stuff into a temporary slump (i mean temporary as any amount of time).

[AlphaOne]

Actualy to jump start the economy a major rebuilding and refittingreequipping plan would do the trick.

Sure it may not be a good solution in the long run but in the short term it will be the best solution for all of this. While the GTVA is building its ships they can also use the temporary influx in the economy to bring up the economy on the long run! This way by the times the short boom from the ship building is over the economical recession will be not so much a severe one! Sure it may affect some sistems more then other but on the other hand it wont be that bad they should be able to recover from an economical recession of about 2 to 3 years very fast and with no lasting ill efects.

That beeing said I would also like to point out that the loss of one sistem while a major loss indeed is not such a big deal when you think about the NTF controled sistems that were isolated from the GTVA.

I mean that took out a huge portion of the GTVA industry and economy much more then Capella was worth.

And yet the GTVA managed to survive all of that.

So i believe ppl overestimate the importance of cappella both in terms of economy and milatary power.

An important colony ? sure of course .

A major critycal part of the GTVA ? that is a big NO .

[Snail]

A major critycal part of the GTVA ? that is a big NO .

The GTVA did send a lot of its fleet there to stop the Shivans, so it would be a major part of the GTVA, but not a critical component of it.

[ns161]

Here's a question I have, are the Orions we see in FS2, FS1 era ships that have been retrofitted?  Or are they "Orion MK2's" new Orions built since the great war?

[AlphaOne]

Negative the Orions we see in FS2 are retrofitted Orions . At this moment there is no official Orion mk 2 available.

Please get back to us on our next release for further information about your requested items. Oh wait there not a next release so no official Orion MK II will be available . However there is an Orion MK II available via black market retailers aka TMan if im not mistaken . An it has some interesting new features added to it. Dont know exactly where it is so you have to ask TMAN since he is the unoficial pimp my battleship/Orion mk II tarider on the streets.

See TMAN a bit of advertising works wonders for the business.

[Gamma_Draconis]

Given that the Hecate class is superior to the Orion in terms of being a Destroyer (In FS terms), it'll eventually replace every Orion. The reason why the Hecate is armed lightly in anti-capital ship warfare is because bombers are definitely more effective to use against Destroyers. The Hecate is excellent for carrying task forces and can defend itself better than the Orion can against enemy bombers.

[MT]

Remember that the Orion is very modular and can easily be modified. All Orions were easily outfitted with beam weaponry without the reactor failures that the Typhon suffered from.

First of all, let me state this: I am not saying that they should scrap all remaining Orions, but they should be replaced as soon as possible with newer designs, be it a Hecate or otherwise.

We don't know how the upgrading process went and how much it cost, how much engineering effort was needed to prevent those failures. For all we know they use magical duct tape and pixie dust to hold everything together and they are now running short of it. And I don't remember any part of the Tech Room description talking about modularity in the Orion design.

As far as I can tell, beam technology is a different paradigm. With most military (and civilian) technology, such a shift usually require a major shift in design in order to take FULL advantage of it. You don't put a modern jet engine (just take a F100 PW 200) onto a Spitfire previously fitted with a piston engine and expect it to match an F16 fully designed to take advantage of such an engine.

You can replace the entire section of the sub but you still are required to conform to a set of requirements to ensure that new section fits with the existing ones. Wiring needs to be the same. Voltage and current needs to be the same unless you want to change in for the entire submarine. Even power requirements need to adhere to a limit, or else (again) you need to upgrade the powerplant in another section of the submarine that you have no intentions to upgrade currently. The diameter and shape of the hull sections must also match, and this is possibly singularly the most restrictive of all. All these are restrictions on how much upgrades that can be affected on the current system.

Many nations upgraded their A4s and F5s with newer avionics and engines but still they can never match a newer fighter (which is why those upgraded fighters still get phased out).

My personal opinion that the Orion is so powerful in FS2 and that the Hecate suck balls is probably a design decision by , rather than something that makes (realistic) sense.

[Snail]

Put it this way.

Orions > Hecates

Orions > Demons

Orions > Ravanas

Orions > Hatshepsuts

Orions > Typhons

Orions = Retired.

[TrashMan]

For more info on that modular sub, looky here:
http://www.powmadeak47.com/powmia/milsubvirginia.html

I think that's it anyway. Things can be very modular when properly designed.

[BlackDove]

I'm thinking of a fully recovered GTVA that has new ship classes, including a specific "Carrier" class that is also capable of doubling as a heavy destroyer (I guess "Battle Carrier" or "Battle Cruiser" might be a more appropriate name).  Something in the superdestroyer class, better than an orion/hecate but not near the level of a Sath or Colossus

We did that about 8 years ago, still doing it actually.

The Golgotha always was, and always will be the penultimate logical progression (through both process of induction and deduction) of picking up where the flagships and the Colossus left off, if you paid any attention to what was written by the developers, on sites that have long since ceased being hosted.

Not that I'm saying what we're doing with BWO is anywhere near what would have happened in FS3, far from it, but ship wise, it is based on things that are more than just theory and conjecture.

[TrashMan]

LOL...

And I bet everyone who makes a post-capella ship or campaign would say the same.

Heck, I belive my ships are the result of natural progression too

[Koth]

Mmmh the flying Super-Beam-Cannon-of-Death(TM). Oh by the way could you please use [lvlshot]? Your url is messing up the site formating.

[Snail]

Heck, I belive my ships are the result of natural progression too

Yeah, and corvettes with BFGreens are certainly balanced.

Even the Golgotha only has 200,000 HP. I bet your cruisers have twice that.

[BlackDove]

LOL...

And I bet everyone who makes a post-capella ship or campaign would say the same.

Heck, I belive my ships are the result of natural progression too

Yes indeed, and many such claims can be debunked immediatly once the public lays eyes on them.

[AlphaOne]

Given that the Hecate class is superior to the Orion in terms of being a Destroyer (In FS terms), it'll eventually replace every Orion. The reason why the Hecate is armed lightly in anti-capital ship warfare is because bombers are definitely more effective to use against Destroyers. The Hecate is excellent for carrying task forces and can defend itself better than the Orion can against enemy bombers.

The Hecate is what???? You need to have your eyes checked or take a colser look at the Hecate . That thing has superior C&C abilaties and superior fighterbay capacity to the Orion as well as superior aaaf defences when compared to the Orion but that is about it.

Its AAAF Defences are adequate for a ship its size but they are not formidable. You want formidable take a look at the Aeulous or the Deimos. It's heavy beam cannons suck big time so much so that an Aeoulous would be a threat to it. Not to mention a Lilith cruiser or a corvette.

It can defend itself gains bommber much better then the Orion but it can not defend itself all that good it is still underarmed when it comes to itys aaaf defence screen.

What you dont believe me? Fine go check for yourself.

The logic behind retiring of the Orion is just not there.  Since the Hecate as formidable a carrier and C&C ship is its pretty much useless agains anithing else . It can not offer direct support ot the front line units without getting trashed and then spend week in the repair yards. 

It can not attack directly ANYTHING larger then a cruiser and hope of coming out on top with minimal damage.

So my guess is that the GTVA wanted the Hecate to be a jack of all trades with emphasis on carrier and C&C duties but kinda failed at it miserably. It would of been a much better ship had it had 180 or 200 spacecrafts in its fighterbay and had it had 2 fighterbays instead of one.

The Hecate is good but its not that good.

The Hattie is even better but its still not better then the Orion . Unless we hammer the Orion because of its very limited aaaf defences.

But then again thats what you have cruisers and corvettes for no?


Also had the Orion been that much expensive to retrofit with beam cannons and new tech then they would of just scrapped the program from the beginning and remained with just building Hecate's instead. My guess is that someone in the GTVA high Command still has some brains and oposed such a decision which would of been dezastruous for the GTVA.

[Gamma_Draconis]

Well, bombers are way more effective at tackling down capital ships from the Great War and from the more recent Shivan Incursions, I want my destroyers to be C&C ships and to always keep them away from combat. Bombers are much more expendable and if well coordinated, can deal massive amounts of damage while taking minimum losts. The Hecate design is brilliant as long as you can keep bombers away from you and launch fighters/bombers against threats. The only exception to this combat doctrine that is the Sathanas which vaporize destroyers in one or two volleys. I'll take a fleet of Hecates over a fleet of Orions any day. The GTVA are learning from their mistakes of using expensive Destroyers such as the Orion for frontline combat. What's 2 wings of bombers and 4 wings of fighters lost compared to losing a Destroyer with over a hundred fighters/bombers still onboard. Remember, Destroyers carry thousands of trained men and women.

Carrier type based Destroyers are the future of ship design. Direct combat Destroyers such as the Orion are nothing more than sinkholes that were drawn from retirement in order to bolster up the ranks. Retrofitting an Orion is faster and perhaps even cheaper than building a new Hecate. The GTVA desperately needed more destroyers and the shipyards were not capable of pumping out enough Hecates.

[AlphaOne]

Well if anithing the Vasudans learned from the mistakes of the past not the terrans. They emphasized the C&C and carrier abilaties too weak on the Hecate for it to be 100% efective and prove to be a much more worthy replacement for the aging Orion's.

The Hattie for example has more HP more heavy beam cannons then the Hecate or the Orion a good aaaf defence screen and dual fighterbays with at least an equal amount of fighters to the Orion . Its more likely it can carry much more then the Orion equal to that of the Hecate.


That ships can project firepower and deliver firepower onto anything it comes across be it either destroyer or ani other ship aside from the Sathanas.

However since the Hattie is a much more succesfull jack of all trades then the Hecate we also see it  as having a more offensive nature to it meaning it has more firepower concentrated in the forward firing ark then on the sides but it still does a better job the the Hecate at engaging cap ships via side beam cannons.

The Orion is good at what it does and that is to deliver massive amounts of damage onto enemy capships via bommbers or beam cannons.

A natural progression after capella would be somewhat new Orion and Orion MK II with increased aaaf defence capabilaties and 50.000 more HP since it is a vessel by its nature designed to go capshipvs. capship . That would be a natural progression of the Orion and the GTVA would do well to take such a course of action. I mean the Orions aaaf defences dont have to be as good as those of a Deimos they just need to be better then they are now. 2 maybe 3 flacks one or 2 aaf beams one or 2 misslie lauchers or some laser turrets armed with kaysers and the Orion would be very well protected agains bommbers when inclueded its own fighters.

I mean such a ship would be superb for beeing the main battlehorse of the GTVA hard to detroy heavy beam cannons adequate aaaf defences good fighterbay capacity.  Its like  a dream come true.


The Hecate has an asured future but not where you see it. I believe that any future destroyer classes following on the footsteps of the Hecate will wither be bigger and sport dual fighterbays 200 spacecrafts and better aaaf capabilaties but with the same heav beam as the Hecate.


I also believe the Vasudans will use the Hattie design to work of with since it is a very good design . Perhaps make it an even more offensive capable ship by mounting even heavier beam cannons . It will loose its all round beam cannons emplacements but at the same time it will gain in the ofensive role and perhaps enlarge its fighter bay capacity who knows perhaps one more figherbay to lauch fighters fast in order to swarm the enemy before he gets a chance to do the same to you.

[Gamma_Draconis]

The Hades sports very high end technology, like those of the Lucifer's, and most research that the GTI had done were lost in the rebellion. The Hecate and the Orion are excellent destroyers, but the Hecate, IMO, is more useful as a destroyer. I don't need a capital ship to take out another capital ship; I just need a carrier ship that can carry a large strike force and can defend itself fairly well against a counter attack of bombers.

I dunno about you, but I felt the Hecate was an excellent destroyer. It serves a critical function in the GTVA fleets and I could see it lasting for at least two more decades. I doubt the GTVA would design anymore new destroyers. I could see new version of the Hecate being developed, perhaps with an onboard AWAC system. (The Orion probably went through several upgrades during the T-V War as well.)

As time goes by, the mighty old Orions will be replaced by the newer Hecates that would continue the proud line of Terran destroyers. The GTVA would no doubt design a new class of cruisers to replace the decades old Leviathans. I envision that the GTVA would reopen their production for the Diamos class corvettes and replenish their fleet with more Hecates along with new cruisers.

[AlphaOne]

Well that work very well against well if your enemy was the GTVA then by all means that would be a very sound strategy . But then agin the enmy is the shivans . And they have a nasty habbit of pin pointing you location sortie out a cruiser or corvette or destroyer or evena Sath blow you up and then leave.

I agree that the Hecate is a very usefull ship to the GTVA i believe the GTVA would be idiots not to have such a ship. However putting the Orion to past and having nothing to fill its shoes is an ever bigger mistake.

The GTVA can not hope to hold back the swarms of cruiser corvettes and destroyer with just bommbers and fighters. They take too long to kill .

However a destroyer such as the hecate perhaps a bit more powerfull who knows might be the solution they are looking for.

Somtheing that has more HP then the Hattie yet has a decent enough AAAF defence screen so as to survive moderate bommber counter-attacks and wield very powerfull beam cannons so as to rip any shivan destroyer to pieces in 3 salvos or less.

The Orion pretty much fill in all there requirements with one diffrence it can not defend itself even gainst a light bommber attack!

However the Orion will also have a very tough time securing a sistem and getting complete overall controll of the istem with just its 90-100 spacecrafts . For that it needs the support of a C&C Destroyer aka the Hecate.

also the Orion was not designed to be a strike destroyer with the emphasis on offensive capabilaties. It was designed to be able to engage on the battlefield enemy cap ships and win.

For the role of stryking back at the enemy counter attacking or storming an enemy strong point we have the Hattie.

Basicly all of these designs complement eachother so weoderfull it would be really stupid to say one of them need retirement or replacement with something totlay different.

Sure replacement maybe but with sometging of equal value and suited and tailored for the same task.