[karajorma]

Bollocks.

[haloboy100]

Knowing the ancients survived for several thousand years, they would know enough about science to distinguish what a galaxy is, as well as know significantly more then humans do about the universe.

[Mobius]

*The Ancient fanboy arrives*

For Heavens sake! They were being poetic. There are millions of star systems in a Galaxy and the Ancient empire, alltough large, was not THAT large.

How do you know that? I don't lie this kind of limits, especially when there are no proofs to support them.

Eh? Excuse me HOW do we know that? I don't recall ANY canon source confirming, or even hinting that.

Secondly, it's unlikely. Given the distance between Galaxies and the fact that nodes form between systems as a result of their gravity....any start in the same galaxy is 1000 times clsoer and will have 1000 times a bigger gravitational effect on a system inside it then another galaxy.

The knowledge on subspace is very, very limited, for Terrans and Vasudans.

I think intergalactic jumps aren't impossible, especially from the centre of a galaxy. There are so many theories in sci-fi games and films about those centres. In a FS environment, they would have something to do with subspace. The most obivious thing is...an intergalactic jump.

Knowing the ancients survived for several thousand years, they would know enough about science to distinguish what a galaxy is, as well as know significantly more then humans do about the universe.

 

[haloboy100]

Knowing the ancients survived for several thousand years, they would know enough about science to distinguish what a galaxy is, as well as know significantly more then humans do about the universe.

 

Yay! i made an intelligent statement!

[Mobius]

No, I have only agreed with you. It doesn't mean it's intelligent

(it's intelligent )

[TrashMan]

*The Ancient fanboy arrives*

For Heavens sake! They were being poetic. There are millions of star systems in a Galaxy and the Ancient empire, alltough large, was not THAT large.

How do you know that?

I can read? Does that what is said in the ancient cutscenes remind you of poetry? It's not said in a normal, informative way.

Oh, and [V] clearly stated the ancients were similar to the GTVA....a bit ahead in tech and a fair bit larger.. but galaxy-spanning empire? I never got that impression.

That said, maby the ancients are overinflated a bit regarding their size and power. Their musings of conquering and their might are fun..but are they correct.
If us humans would travel beyond Sol and found a primitive race (stone-age), we would probably be bashing our chest and stroaking our ego, showing just how much more powerful we are. But in a broader scale, are we? Were the ancients really that powerful, or were the other races they encountered simply incredibly primitive compared to them?

[haloboy100]

*The Ancient fanboy arrives*

For Heavens sake! They were being poetic. There are millions of star systems in a Galaxy and the Ancient empire, alltough large, was not THAT large.

How do you know that?

Oh, and [V] clearly stated the ancients were similar to the GTVA....a bit ahead in tech and a fair bit larger.. but galaxy-spanning empire? I never got that impression.

Well you'd think if they'd been around for thousands of years, like i mentioned, their empire would be big enough to span a considerable amount of systems.

[FUBAR-BDHR]

Especially since it says they explored most of the galaxy before they even discovered subspace.

[haloboy100]

I don't recall that?

But i think that would be pretty much impossible to find other systems outside of your own, unless you had engines with FTL speeds, or a hell of a lot of patience. (the closest star to the earth next to the sun is 4 lightyears away, IIRC, for example. i think it's called Proximina Centauri)

[FUBAR-BDHR]

I guess it doesn't state most of the galaxy but most of the reachable systems.   But within a galaxy what is a reachable system?  If you travel to the closest system then other systems are closer to that on.  Eventually you will be within reach of all the systems in the galaxy from some system you have already reached.

[haloboy100]

I guess it doesn't state most of the galaxy but most of the reachable systems.   But within a galaxy what is a reachable system?  If you travel to the closest system then other systems are closer to that on.  Eventually you will be within reach of all the systems in the galaxy from some system you have already reached.

I suppose so, but that would take possibly decades at light-speed to reach systems.

Not like it mattered, the ancients had a lot of time on their hands before being obliterated

[FUBAR-BDHR]

Well since the Milky Way is about 100,000 light years across that would take quite a long time.  On the other hand the average galaxy is only about 10,000 light years across.  Assuming travel at half the speed of light and a central starting location that could fit into the "thousands of years" time fame.   

[Snail]

Oh, and [V] clearly stated the ancients were similar to the GTVA....a bit ahead in tech and a fair bit larger.. but galaxy-spanning empire? I never got that impression.

Oh, yes, that statement. "The Ancients are similar to the GTVA except in the area of subspace."

Time to dig through the Ancient's stale crap, huh?

Ours was a proud people, and always the strongest. For thousands of years our empire expanded. For so long we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long never did we encounter advanced life. And we travelled faster and further spreading in our galaxy [Fig. 1] and before long we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited [Fig. 2]. And then there would be nowhere else to go.

Figure 1 gives me the impression that the Ancients spread throughout their galaxy. Everywhere. Figure 2 even says that they could see the point when they had reached all the exploitable systems of the galaxy.

And we discovered subspace. It gave us our galaxy [Fig. 3] and it gave us the universe [Fig 4.]. And we saw other advanced life. And we subdued it or we crushed it. In months the extermination of billions of years of evolution on a similar but slower path. With subspace our empire would surely know no boundaries.

Figure 3 says "gave us our galaxy." Their galaxy. Gaaaaaalaxxxeeeeeeee. Is that not clear enough? Gaaaaalaaaaaxeeeeeeeeeeee.

Figure 4 says "the universe." Just before that, they say "galaxy". That just screams at  me, that the "universe" is more than one galaxy. And subspace "gave us the universe." So they have the universe, which is more than one galaxy.


That can't be poetry. Just like "Incoming jump signature! Hostile configuration!" isn't poetry.

[Black Wolf]

For once, I agree with Trashman. I don't think anyone believes that the Ancients conquered the entire universe, and yet the language they use for the galaxy is exactly the same. "Giving" them the galaxy and the universe doesn't neccesarily mean they conquered it - they might have meant giving them access to the galaxy, with the universe part added for emphasis. It's like some politician saying a space program lets us "reach to the stars" even though there's no intention of leaving the solar system. Poetic exaggeration makes sense, more sense that a species that we know weren't that much more advanced than the Terrans and Vasudans conquerting multiple galaxies. As for "Reachable systems" It's quite possible that there were reachable systems - most stars, as I understand it, have neighbours closer than earth does - maybe there were limits on what the ancients could reach and maintain - maybe they couldn;t go beyond, say, 10 light years before the logistics of slower than light travel from the homeworld made it impossible to go any further, and the logistics of making an entire new base on the frontier were just as daunting. Plus, they never say they reached all exploitable systems, just that they could see it coming. Maybe they think long term. There are people on Earth worrying about dwindling supplies of phosphates and overall availability of bio-available phosphorous, even though it's not going to run out for a couple of centuries. We can "see the day" when our agricultural systems will fail, and we can start to make plans for it, even though it's far off in the future. There's nothing stopping the ancients from taking an equally long view, especially when the discovery of subspace eliminated the worry and meant that they could never develop alternate means of getting out to other stars.

[FUBAR-BDHR]

I don't think any of us are saying they conquered the universe.  What we (or at least me) are saying is that they traveled beyond their galaxy. 

Come to think of it how would they know that subspace would have "gave them access to" they universe unless they tried it.  Both the Ancients and the GTVA don't seem to be the type of beings that would open a door and not step through it to see what is on the other side.

[Snail]

I don't think any of us are saying they conquered the universe.  What we (or at least me) are saying is that they traveled beyond their galaxy. 

None of us said that they conquered their entire galaxy. My post was... Rather unclear but I didn't mean that if that's how you interpreted it.

[karajorma]

I think intergalactic jumps aren't impossible, especially from the centre of a galaxy. There are so many theories in sci-fi games and films about those centres. In a FS environment, they would have something to do with subspace. The most obivious thing is...an intergalactic jump.

Given that the centre of the galaxy is likely a supermassive black hole even if you do believe that special conditions must exist for an intergalactic jump they would exist there.


Secondly just because the ancients may have conquered in other galaxies doesn't mean that they had to conquer all of theirs.

Although a lot of local stars are within the GTVA there are also some that are really quite far away. Polaris is quite distant and IIRC the Orion Nebula is the closest one to us and is over 1000LY away. So it might be that although jump nodes allow you to travel far in the galaxy they might not allow you to colonise every system in it (or even the majority of them). It could be that after conquering a thousand stars the Ancients ran out of stars they could reach in their own galaxy and had to go elsewhere. This is even more likely if they weren't from the Milky Way but instead were from the Magellanic Clouds or one of the nearby dwarf galaxies.

Thirdly suppose in their second or third jump from their home planet the Ancients found a node that led to another galaxy. Would they really not jump there just because it was another galaxy. Hell, would they even have known it wasn't a node to another galaxy before they jumped?

So assuming that the Ancients must have been confined to this galaxy just because you think their empire was small is unnecessary. For all we know the Nebula isn't even in our galaxy. For all we know the Knossos portals were built not to stabilise standard nodes but because intergalactic ones are more likely to destabilise and the ancients didn't want to take the risk.   

I don't see any reason that the ancients speeches can't be literally true.

[Jeff Vader]

I too was thinking in the manner, that the Ancients were eventually able to travel to other galaxies. Not that they would have conquered their own galaxy first. They might have just enslaved and destroyed civilizations relatively close to them. And when they started to travel to other galaxies, it might be likely that they could only travel to the galaxies closest to them. Not necessarily to the edge of the universe. And nowhere has there been statements that the Ancients had conquered the universe. There just are implications that they liked to expand their empire and enslave or crush other advanced lifeforms. They wouldn't necessarily have had to dominate the universe. Just some star systems that they seemed worth the effort to claim.

For Heavens sake! They were being poetic. There are millions of star systems in a Galaxy and the Ancient empire, alltough large, was not THAT large

I bet they didn't bother to conquer every goddamn asteroid and moon in the galaxy before proceeding to others. And besides, Bosch also spoke somewhat poetically. Maybe we should assume that he didn't really have those plans and that he believed in the agenda of the NTF.

[Vidmaster]

The Shivans "capellaed" all other galaxies! Problem solved! 

Seriously, does it really matter if the Ancients conquered multiple or just one galaxy? They subjugated most sentient races around at this time and humanity has not come far in the galaxy. Just about 20 or 30 systems, there is plenty of room left.

I think the HOL prophecies are more than enough to prove that the Vasudans had contact (most likely became slaves) with the Ancients. And they also settle down on lots of worlds, becoming the new dominant life form and preventing the evolution of new life. The Shivans, the great destroyers, are the guardians of life (like a cult or something). Whenether a race starts preventing others form becoming sentient, they appear and "clean up" until there is enough empty space again. This is of course linked with subspace knowledge, if a culture cannot use subspace, they cannot meet other races (normally)

The delay of the Shivan arrival can also be explained. They have to watch and entire galaxy, so they only pass by every 10000 years or so. They simply were not there when humanity (or Vasudans) made the first steps into space.

So, that's my theory: Shivans = Religious fanatics intending on "preserving life"
Think of them like a mix of the Ur-Quan in SC2 and the Cylons in the new BSG.

Oh, of course they could also just be the product of a race with these believes and with their masters gone, they still try to fullfill their purpose. Robotic race with dated orders, Perry Rhodan style!

[Jeff Vader]

Shivans = Religious fanatics intending on "preserving life"
Think of them like a mix of the Ur-Quan in SC2 and the Cylons in the new BSG.

Don't forget to add the Inhibitors from Alastair Reynolds' Revelation Space universe.