Author Topic: The Capella Supernova  (Read 6885 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
Yeah that's not crazy, it's quite plausible.

 

Offline eliex

  • 210

 Just back to the topic, why would the cutscene near the end of Bosch's monologue focus quite heavily on the
trail of yellow from the < unknown > star, if it was of vital importance.
 And then the Capella star blows up.

The cutscene might have been made when the NTF were making their all-out run for the Gamma Draconis Knossos.
Who knows?

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
but nuking your own ships is too redicolous, even for them.

No it's not. They were needed sacrifices.

If they weren't there the GTVA would have had a very easy escape. And if the GTVA wanted to, they could have attacked the Saths with a multitude of bombers from their Hecates. They could take down maybe ten of them that way. Probably more. With the Shivans running around the system the GTVA will have a much harder time doing anything in the system, let alone attacking the Saths. If the support fleet wasn't in position, the Sathanes may have had to engage the GTVA themselves, which would have been a great big bother.

It makes no sense. How is their sacrifice necessary?

The fighter/bomber complement of 80 Saths was more than enough to harras GTVA ships trought the system and protect the saths. The shivans didn't really need any ships other than the saths.
Even if they did need others for diversion, why not pull them back to GD 5 minutes before the big bang? Why lose them when you don't have to? The GTVA can't to nothing in 5 minutes to stop the saths, especially since it has civies to escort.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
We don't actually know what the fighter/bomber compliment of a Sathanas is. It's a reasonable assumption it's large like with the Colossus but AFAIK the most we've ever seen it launch is 2 wings of fighters and one of bombers in A Monster In The Mists and it's never been stated that it has lots of them.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
It certanly has more internal volume that a Collie...

Assuming it has at least as many fighters/bombers as a destroyer, that's still a helluva lot of fighters and bombers available when you count 80 saths :P
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq

 Just back to the topic, why would the cutscene near the end of Bosch's monologue focus quite heavily on the
trail of yellow from the < unknown > star, if it was of vital importance.
 And then the Capella star blows up.

The cutscene might have been made when the NTF were making their all-out run for the Gamma Draconis Knossos.
Who knows?

Even if that star was Capella, which it is not:

The type of supernova which you are proposing is a Type 1a supernova. This is not what occured in the final cutscene of the game. Capella itself clearly undergoes a type 1b/type 2 event. In the final cutscene, there is no evidence of a white dwarf companion, which is requisite for a type 1a.

In fact, a type 1a would probably not be nearly as destructive as a type 1b/type 2. It certainly wouldn't produce the shockwave (emanating from Capella, not some invisible partner) visible in the cutscene.

Command's dialogue suggests that 'Capella has gone supernova' (in chillingly memorable fashion.) It does not suggest that 'Capella's invisible white dwarf companion has achieved fusion!' Obviously this would spoil the drama, because it sounds ridiculous.

This is a type 1b or type 2 supernova:  single-star event.

It has no link to Bosch Monologue 2.

There is no evidence to suggest that Bosch is in Capella during the Bosch Monologue 2 cutscene.  There may be evidence against it, depending on the placement of the Iceni during that part of the campaign.

I understand that the link is tempting, but binary pairs like the one seen in the Bosch Monologue 2 are very common in the universe. Bosch was probably just hanging out at one. There is nothing to suggest that the Freespace Capella system is a binary.

 
Quote from: General Battuta link=topic=51273.msg1037062#msg1037062 date=1199461158
'Capella's invisible white dwarf companion has achieved fusion!'
[/quote


I lolled reaaally hard. :lol: :lol: :lol :lol:
And this ain't no ****. But don't quote me for that one. - Mika

I shall rrreach worrrld domination!

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
I lolled reaaally hard. :lol: :lol: :lol :lol:

On the other hand, maybe the invisible white dwarf was a trap left by the Ancients to destroy the Sathanas fleet when it did whatever it was doing to the Capella primary.

Yes, yes, I'm just being ridiculous.

 
I doubt that the star seen in the Bosch monologue is Capella. Capella is one of the GTVA's largest colonies; Bosch would not risk "hiding" in such a system. Besides, that star has a black hole next to it... Capella doesn't.

Another thing: Capella in FS is a yellow star similar to Sol. Such stars do not, ever, go supernova. They aren't large enough. The Capella Supernova is therefore artifcial in nature, not natural at all.

The real life Capella is actually 2 stars orbiting each other, each on their way toward being red giants. Capella A is a class G8III star, whilst Capella B is a class G0III star. Being class G stars, they are about the same colour as Sol.
Each of the stars is about 2.5 times as massive as, and about 10 times the size of Sol.

That said, both stars are likely too young to create even a nova. Capella A has probably started burning its helium, whilst Capella B is likely about to start burning its helium.  :nervous: About to start?

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
And what have we learned today kids? That's right - RL and Freespace are two very different things.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline Polpolion

  • The sizzle, it thinks!
  • 211
    • Minecraft
Or that FS is 300 years in the future.

Which is still negligible on the stellar sense.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
klightspeed, I'm aware that RL Capella is a binary, but even a cursory glance at Freespace Capella will show that it's a single yellow dwarf. Using data on 'RL' Capella is effectively a dead end.

And while Trashman and I have disagreed on exactly what that means, I think we're both agreed that Freespace Capella and RL Capella are definitely not the same place, in one way or another.

 
The real life Capella is actually 2 stars orbiting each other, each on their way toward being red giants. Capella A is a class G8III star, whilst Capella B is a class G0III star. Being class G stars, they are about the same colour as Sol.
Each of the stars is about 2.5 times as massive as, and about 10 times the size of Sol.

That said, both stars are likely too young to create even a nova. Capella A has probably started burning its helium, whilst Capella B is likely about to start burning its helium.  :nervous: About to start?

Another thing: Capella in FS is a yellow star similar to Sol. Such stars do not, ever, go supernova. They aren't large enough. The Capella Supernova is therefore artifcial in nature, not natural at all.

In FS. IN FS I said! I'm fully aware that Real Life CapellaTM is much different.
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?" -DEATH, Discworld

"You can fight like a krogan, run like a leopard, but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard!"

 
but nuking your own ships is too redicolous, even for them.

No it's not. They were needed sacrifices.

If they weren't there the GTVA would have had a very easy escape. And if the GTVA wanted to, they could have attacked the Saths with a multitude of bombers from their Hecates. They could take down maybe ten of them that way. Probably more. With the Shivans running around the system the GTVA will have a much harder time doing anything in the system, let alone attacking the Saths. If the support fleet wasn't in position, the Sathanes may have had to engage the GTVA themselves, which would have been a great big bother.

It makes no sense. How is their sacrifice necessary?

The fighter/bomber complement of 80 Saths was more than enough to harras GTVA ships trought the system and protect the saths. The shivans didn't really need any ships other than the saths.
Even if they did need others for diversion, why not pull them back to GD 5 minutes before the big bang? Why lose them when you don't have to? The GTVA can't to nothing in 5 minutes to stop the saths, especially since it has civies to escort.
I'll buy your argument when you can tell me what the Shivan's objective was.  What's that?  You can't, because nobody knows and attributing fear to the bloody Shivans is a cop out?  Thought as much.

As Snail said, nothing about the Shivan character that we know of (and we know precious little at that) would preclude them sacrificing juggernauts to achieve whatever it was they were up to.  Why they didn't bother to engage us (in a fight that would pretty much spell out our extinction) in favor of mucking about with the star is the real question, not why they would "throw ships away".

It's also one that I'd prefer never be answered, unless it's [V] doing it.  You can't answer questions like this within the boundaries of canon, and any answer yielded is no better then bloody fan fiction.  But then, the only Shivan theory other then my own I can even stand to read is Snail's, mainly because he doesn't actually try to explain the Shivans, just to examine the timeline and possible chain of events.  Well, not the part about Legos or whatnot.

Demystify the Shivans and you destroy their allure.  If we ever fully understood them we would no longer want to, it's precisely because they're mysterious that we find them so interesting.  Without that, they're just [insert generic space villains here].  Presupposing you know how they think Trashman is a pretty big step onto that path.  I'd advise against it.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2008, 11:13:35 am by Marcus Vesper »
Everything is better with monkeys.  Even pie.

That is the best first post I have ever seen.

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
but nuking your own ships is too redicolous, even for them.

I stand by my opinion that I think the Shivans don't give a mother****ing crap about a few juggernauts lost in the explosion. Doing what they wanted to do with the supernova might have been so important their entire fleet could be sacrificed.

GRAMMAR AND SCIENCE POLICE!!!

Novae are not equal to Supernovae. That being said, I would say that a few Sathanai were left behind because a) They had no energy left or b) They had to maintain the supernova and bring it to the end.

It seems the police have become the very scum they hunt.

 
I doubt that the star seen in the Bosch monologue is Capella. Capella is one of the GTVA's largest colonies; Bosch would not risk "hiding" in such a system. Besides, that star has a black hole next to it... Capella doesn't.

Another thing: Capella in FS is a yellow star similar to Sol. Such stars do not, ever, go supernova. They aren't large enough. The Capella Supernova is therefore artifcial in nature, not natural at all.

The real life Capella is actually 2 stars orbiting each other, each on their way toward being red giants. Capella A is a class G8III star, whilst Capella B is a class G0III star. Being class G stars, they are about the same colour as Sol.
Each of the stars is about 2.5 times as massive as, and about 10 times the size of Sol.

That said, both stars are likely too young to create even a nova. Capella A has probably started burning its helium, whilst Capella B is likely about to start burning its helium.  :nervous: About to start?
GRAMMAR AND SCIENCE POLICE!!!

Novae not equal to Supernovae. That being said, I would say that a few Sathanai were left behind because a) They had no energy left or b) They had to maintain the supernova and bring it to the end.

****! ****! ****! JUst me pressing the wrong button!

****! ****!
And this ain't no ****. But don't quote me for that one. - Mika

I shall rrreach worrrld domination!

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
As Snail said, nothing about the Shivan character that we know of (and we know precious little at that) would preclude them sacrificing juggernauts to achieve whatever it was they were up to.  Why they didn't bother to engage us (in a fight that would pretty much spell out our extinction) in favor of mucking about with the star is the real question, not why they would "throw ships away".

It's also one that I'd prefer never be answered, unless it's [V] doing it.  You can't answer questions like this within the boundaries of canon, and any answer yielded is no better then bloody fan fiction.  But then, the only Shivan theory other then my own I can even stand to read is Snail's, mainly because he doesn't actually try to explain the Shivans, just to examine the timeline and possible chain of events.  Well, not the part about Legos or whatnot.

Demystify the Shivans and you destroy their allure.  If we ever fully understood them we would no longer want to, it's precisely because they're mysterious that we find them so interesting.  Without that, they're just [insert generic space villains here].  Presupposing you know how they think Trashman is a pretty big step onto that path.  I'd advise against it.

Dud, you're on a  false crusade here...Or at least you missed your target. Did I ever say I know what their objective was? Did I ever say shivans wouldn't sacrifice ships? How the hell am I "demystifying" them?

We all assume here they are an inteligent, thinking race. If the objective is that important to them they wouldn't hesitate to sacrifice whatever they think is necessary...or  to be really smart about it - to sacrifice EXACTLY what is needed to fulfill your objective and no more.
If you sacrifice far more ships are resources than needed - we'll thats not a sign of intelligence, but rather stupidity.

The question is - could the shivans have BBQ's the sun with half the number of other warships (not saths) in the system?
The game strongly suggest they could have. If so, why sacrifice more ship then you need...unless you didn't plan on sacrificing them in the first place.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 
I'm warning you about the dangers of assumptions.  Nothing suggests that the subspace anomaly the Sathanas fleet was generating could have been produced with less ships, nowhere is it explained why they were triggering it, and I really fail to understand how you can come away from that cutscene with the impression that the Shivans just made a mistake.

Which is exactly what you're arguing, that it was a colossal screw up.  This is incorrect.  V didn't make that ending so we could watch a terrifying unstoppable force "accidentally" vaporize the system and beat a hasty retreat.  You're supposed to watch them sacrifice multiple Sathanas Juggernauts towards some unknown end, that also involves the complete destruction of the entire system with other Shivan vessels in it, and go "Oh ****, if they're throwing away those, what else do they have?!" and of course "Why did they do that in the first place?!  Why are we even still alive?!"

But you aren't doing that Trashman, so obviously enough to me, you must have watched the cutscene wrong.  Stop trying to explain Shivan tactics with your human brain.
Everything is better with monkeys.  Even pie.

That is the best first post I have ever seen.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
I gotta admit, Vesper's right.

Quote
If you sacrifice far more ships are resources than needed - we'll thats not a sign of intelligence, but rather stupidity.

We don't know that. Even by human standards, maybe they wanted some margin for error to make sure the job got done.

And that's applying human standards -- which is dangerous and fallacious. The Shivans have a totally foreign psychology; they might even be some kind of post-Singularity race with a whole different, and superior, mode of consciousness.

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
Are you blind man?

Who's talking about the Juggs? How many times must I repeat that I'm refering to OTHER shivan ships!!!!

Quote
The question is - could the shivans have BBQ's the sun with half the number of other warships (not saths) in the system?

And just so you know - intelligence is intelligence.
It doesn't change simply becouse one is alien, since efficiency and logic are rather simple and clear terms.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!