Author Topic: The Capella Supernova  (Read 6886 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
No, that's not true -- look deeply enough and you'll find that 'efficiency' and 'logic' are based on uncertain assumptions. For example, 'Expending unnecessary resources is bad.' Well, if you have unlimited resources, why is that so? What if the scale of the resources you're devoting is beneath the trivial threshold -- a human wouldn't be concerned over putting a few extra grains of silicon into a glassblowing project, after all.

Similarly, it's impossible for us to determine what alien 'logic' might be simply because we are blind to those modes of consciousness which we cannot ourself emulate. Humans can only think the way humans think, and if Shivan thought is outside our imaginative capacity, we'll never fathom it.

Those additional vessels still in-system might have been part of a contingency plan if more GTVA warships arrived. They may have been directly under the control of the Sathani (in much the way Shivan vessels in FS1 were somehow tied to the Lucifer) and unable to leave.

They may have been so loyal they refused to desert their posts and abandon the Sathani to die alone.

The point is that there are possibilities.

Also, I admit that I've kind of forgotten the original point we're arguing here.

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
No, that's not true -- look deeply enough and you'll find that 'efficiency' and 'logic' are based on uncertain assumptions. For example, 'Expending unnecessary resources is bad.' Well, if you have unlimited resources, why is that so?

Becoause you don't. Nothing is unlimited. something as "unlimited resouces" doesn't exist except in really, really bad Sci-fi.



Quote
Similarly, it's impossible for us to determine what alien 'logic' might be simply because we are blind to those modes of consciousness which we cannot ourself emulate. Humans can only think the way humans think, and if Shivan thought is outside our imaginative capacity, we'll never fathom it.

Logic is above humanity. It's a concept as universal as mathematics - deriving conclusions from a series of facts.

Quote
Those additional vessels still in-system might have been part of a contingency plan if more GTVA warships arrived.

GTVA couldn't scratch the saths. Its like sending a SWAT team to guard a tank from a bunch of mice.

Quote
They may have been directly under the control of the Sathani (in much the way Shivan vessels in FS1 were somehow tied to the Lucifer) and unable to leave.
They may have been so loyal they refused to desert their posts and abandon the Sathani to die alone.
Much better explanations.
Now we're getting somewhere.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
Put it this way. You have to get somewhere, or the universe will implode. To get there in time, you have to sacrifice a few of your warships and a star. Will you let the universe implode in favor of a few warships, or will you sacrifice those warships to get to stop the universe imploding?

This is an unlikely, but possible, scenario that the Shivans might be doing.

 
Quote from: Trashman
Are you blind man?

Who's talking about the Juggs? How many times must I repeat that I'm refering to OTHER shivan ships!!!!
I mentioned them in my rebuttal, so I hadn't forgotten about them.  The fact that they're still there actually adds to the impact of that cutscene.  Even in the face of an imminent supernova that only they could have predicted, and I would contend they were well aware of it, the Shivans preferred to keep engaging our forces with the other elements of their fleet rather then let our forces retreat unscathed.

Think about it: If there were no Shivans attacking our convoys or the other operations in system at that point, what are the odds that any of the escaping craft would have been caught in the supernova?  Their destruction was hardly inevitable, and retreats tend to go a lot smoother when you're not being shot.  No, the presence of the other Shivan vessels ensured that we didn't get away without a scratch, but took significant losses.  So the destruction of numerous smaller Shivan vessels wasn't entirely pointless, even from a human perspective.

Which I'll remind you is exactly what you're using when you bust out the metrics and tell us what a waste of resources it was.  I already know you don't know how to properly apply Occam's Razor, so please don't delve into arguments about logic.  Really, for your own good (you'll of course ignore this, but at least I can say I typed it).  Here's something to think about: To understand a logical course of action, you must first know the intended result the actions will produce.  Asking "But why would they do that if they could have done [such and such] because they have [so and so]" is automatically faulty, because that's just what YOU would have done, or how you think they should have done something, based on the astounding assumption that you understand what the Shivans meant to do.

Except you don't, because nobody does, so how do you know they didn't achieve it precisely as intended?  How do you know they weren't logic incarnate without knowing what they were aiming for?  And even assuming you were gifted with knowledge from on high about the Shivans plans, you're most emphatically not a Shivan and thus aren't qualified to think like one, and so the way you employ logic is entirely motivated by your human values.

Heck, I'll even use a real life example of the differences mere cultural perspectives can have on the thought process and warfare.  WW2 saw the use of Kamikazes, pilots who would fill their planes with explosives and intentionally crash into aircraft carriers, something we (I'm American) never expected to defend against because that's not a tactic we would have thought of or actually considered implementing.  It's an entirely logical approach to warfare however, you just need to have little to no regard for your own life over that of the empire.

Or take the battle for Iwo Jima and the other small islands where we'd bombard them for weeks and then STILL lose a ton of men because they just kept fighting, down to the last man, to the point where it was obvious that victory wasn't even a remote possibility.  Logic from our perspective would have had them surrendering long before that point.  If the Japanese had acted logically, as we understood it, there wouldn't have been cause to use the A-Bomb.

The problem is of course that in our culture "Death before dishonor!" and the "divinity of the emperor and his will" weren't a factor.  The metrics we used to calculate the value of human life and the metrics they were using were entirely different.  We saw them as fanatical maniacs throwing their lives away for nothing and taking far too many of ours with them.  I'd imagine they saw if differently.

Now consider this: Both our cultures are Human.  If that didn't just make my point, nothing will.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2008, 03:18:34 pm by Marcus Vesper »
Everything is better with monkeys.  Even pie.

That is the best first post I have ever seen.

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
Put it this way. You have to get somewhere, or the universe will implode. To get there in time, you have to sacrifice a few of your warships and a star. Will you let the universe implode in favor of a few warships, or will you sacrifice those warships to get to stop the universe imploding?

This is an unlikely, but possible, scenario that the Shivans might be doing.

For the zillionth time, I'm NOT talking about the Sathanases. Their destruction is clearly either a sacrifice of one of the biggest blooper in history.


Quote
Think about it: If there were no Shivans attacking our convoys or the other operations in system at that point, what are the odds that any of the escaping craft would have been caught in the supernova?  Their destruction was hardly inevitable, and retreats tend to go a lot smoother when you're not being shot.  No, the presence of the other Shivan vessels ensured that we didn't get away without a scratch, but took significant losses.  So the destruction of numerous smaller Shivan vessels wasn't entirely pointless, even from a human perspective.

1. Evacuation takes time, with or without shivan cruisers. Transports won't fly faster with escorts. GTVA would have losses from the nova even if there were no shivans attacking.
2. 80 Sath's worth of fighter complement is more than enough to engage and harras (and therefore tie up) GTVA resources trought the system.
Granted that a few extra ships wouldn't hurt, altough we don't really know the exact number of other shivan warships in Capella. The escort missions might be some indication, as shivans are launching warships on practicly every single convoy you had to defend..so obviously they had more than enough smaller warships.


Quote
Which I'll remind you is exactly what you're using when you bust out the metrics and tell us what a waste of resources it was.  I already know you don't know how to properly apply Occam's Razor, so please don't delve into arguments about logic.  Really, for your own good (you'll of course ignore this, but at least I can say I typed it).  Here's something to think about: To understand a logical course of action, you must first know the intended result the actions will produce.  Asking "But why would they do that if they could have done [such and such] because they have [so and so]" is automatically faulty, because that's just what YOU would have done, or how you think they should have done something, based on the astounding assumption that you understand what the Shivans meant to do.

Except you don't, because nobody does, so how do you know they didn't achieve it precisely as intended?  How do you know they weren't logic incarnate without knowing what they were aiming for?  And even assuming you were gifted with knowledge from on high about the Shivans plans, you're most emphatically not a Shivan and thus aren't qualified to think like one, and so the way you employ logic is entirely motivated by your human values.
YAWN...if this is the best you can do I don't even have to bother :lol:

I don't know the shivan goal.
They might have wanted to cause a nova.. maby not.. maby it backfired. Maby the wanted something else.

I can tell you what they didn't want to do...what no thinking, sentient race would do - blow up their own military forces. You never, ever sacrifice more than you have to. To do that is sheer folly, and no amount of "but it's alien thinking" can allevate that.

The only thing I can conclude is that one of the following is probably true:
- Shivans are rather unlucky (get creamed by us and then a sun blows up in their face)
- Shivans are rather suicidal (let's kill the enemy and ourself)
- Shivans are rather dumb (upss..I killed Carl too..and Greg..and Barry)
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Becoause you don't. Nothing is unlimited. something as "unlimited resouces" doesn't exist except in really, really bad Sci-fi.

True -- but the scale could make it effectively unlimited. Say the Shivans use subspace to ship in matter for ship construction from a high-energy parallel brane. (This is a concept from string theory.)

You could build enough ships to full up our entire galaxy and still have resources to spare.


Quote
Logic is above humanity. It's a concept as universal as mathematics - deriving conclusions from a series of facts.

Perhaps, but the human understanding of logic is limited. A rat cannot use logic as effectively as a human. Similarly, a Shivan may have a much more capable grasp of logic than a human being.

Quote
GTVA couldn't scratch the saths. Its like sending a SWAT team to guard a tank from a bunch of mice.

The Shivans may not have had perfect information on the size or disposition of the GTVA fleet. They may have believed the GTVA had discovered another Ancient weapon or some other destructive technique.

They may just have wanted additional ships in system just because -- rather the way I enjoy employing overwhelming force in RTS games because it's a safer tactic.

Quote
Much better explanations.
Now we're getting somewhere.

Yay!

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
True -- but the scale could make it effectively unlimited. Say the Shivans use subspace to ship in matter for ship construction from a high-energy parallel brane. (This is a concept from string theory.)

You could build enough ships to full up our entire galaxy and still have resources to spare.

That falls in the "really bad Sci-Fi" category.. with uber-impossible tech like that they could have killed the GTVA eons ago.



Quote
Perhaps, but the human understanding of logic is limited. A rat cannot use logic as effectively as a human. Similarly, a Shivan may have a much more capable grasp of logic than a human being.

It's not that our understanding is limited, it's that logic by itself has it's limits as a tool.


Quote
The Shivans may not have had perfect information on the size or disposition of the GTVA fleet. They may have believed the GTVA had discovered another Ancient weapon or some other destructive technique.

They may just have wanted additional ships in system just because -- rather the way I enjoy employing overwhelming force in RTS games because it's a safer tactic.

But you still pull those forces back when you nuke the enemy base, don't you?
It's not the problem of having more ships than needed (extra is good), it's sacrificing them all instead of pulling out the excess.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Quote
That falls in the "really bad Sci-Fi" category.. with uber-impossible tech like that they could have killed the GTVA eons ago.

No offense, man, but that's not any more impossible than subspace travel -- in fact, it's less so, since branes are at least theoretically postulated to exist.

You don't even have to resort to that kind of wild tech. The Shivans might build factories that scoop matter and energy from the accretion disks of black holes.

The fact is that with present tech the Shivans could've killed the GTVA ages ago. The puzzle is why they don't.

Quote
It's not that our understanding is limited, it's that logic by itself has it's limits as a tool.

You're correct there. Are you familiar with the work of Godel, particularly his completeness theorem? One of the points he made was that intuition is necessary to complete a system of logic -- no purely mechanistic logic can describe the universe. The Shivan capacity for that 'intuition' may be far greater than our own, in just a way that ours outstrips that of a rat.

Quote
It's not the problem of having more ships than needed (extra is good), it's sacrificing them all instead of pulling out the excess.

Thank you, you reminded me what the debate is about!

Here's a suggestion: maybe the Shivans were trying to annihilate all witnesses to what they'd done. Maybe, if they were going somewhere, they didn't want to be followed.

Maybe, as I suggested above, the smaller vessels could not disengage because they were tied to the Sathanas fleet.

Maybe the smaller vessels were unwilling to leave the Sathanas fleet vulnerable, even for a small period of time, for fear that the GTVA might deploy a large number of Colossus-class or larger vessels -- or some other weapon.

Maybe the Shivan religion proscribes annihilation in a supernova as a form of salvation, rebirth in the nebular void and reunion with the universe.

Who knows?

Erm. What is your objective in proving that it was stupid for the Shivans to leave all their tiny ships in the path of the supernova? I've forgotten that too.

 
Quote from: Trashman
YAWN...if this is the best you can do I don't even have to bother  :lol:
Maybe I should have mentioned that it's also a bad idea to use halfhearted logical fallacies on me, just like it's a bad idea for you to even attempt to argue over logic.  That's got to be the single laziest ad hominem attack ever though, you just say I'm incapable of making a good point and proceed to ignore the argument itself.  Most illogical debaters at least mention why in their fallacies.

Quote from: Trashman
I can tell you what they didn't want to do...what no thinking, sentient race would do - blow up their own military forces. You never, ever sacrifice more than you have to. To do that is sheer folly, and no amount of "but it's alien thinking" can allevate that.
Poor Trashman, still thinking exactly like a meatbag (Yay HK-47!).  Did you even read the last part of my post where I pointed out ACTUAL examples of military authorities doing EXACTLY that?  I suspect you did, but you're ignoring it and hoping it will go away if you never bother to offer up a counter argument.  It'll be like I never pointed out that your entire premise is faulty using real life historical examples!  What a cunning and dastardly plan!


What Trashman doesn't know is that I'm perfectly content to read meaning into what he so pointedly doesn't say, and then debate that instead!  For example(!): Why do you think every historian, veteran, indeed all sources EVER are lying about the War in the Pacific?  It's obviously what you must think if you don't consider my citing that a crushing blow to your flimsy logic argument about troop losses.  This of course begs the question: What OTHER painfully obvious things don't you believe in?  On a scale of 1 to 10, how hard will they make us laugh?  It's important to know that ahead of time, in case we're drinking carbonated beverages.  It would be a shame to accidentally cause the great nose snortage of '08, now wouldn't it?

Quote from: General Battuta
Erm. What is your objective in proving that it was stupid for the Shivans to leave all their tiny ships in the path of the supernova? I've forgotten that too.
He wants to prove they screwed up doing.....something.  A conclusion I can't comprehend given the decidedly badass final cutscene.  Not humanizing the Shivans should be akin to a cardinal rule, second only to "Don't explain them in a way that makes them LAME."
Everything is better with monkeys.  Even pie.

That is the best first post I have ever seen.

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR

Quote from: Trashman
I can tell you what they didn't want to do...what no thinking, sentient race would do - blow up their own military forces. You never, ever sacrifice more than you have to. To do that is sheer folly, and no amount of "but it's alien thinking" can allevate that.
Poor Trashman, still thinking exactly like a meatbag (Yay HK-47!).  Did you even read the last part of my post where I pointed out ACTUAL examples of military authorities doing EXACTLY that?  I suspect you did, but you're ignoring it and hoping it will go away if you never bother to offer up a counter argument.  It'll be like I never pointed out that your entire premise is faulty using real life historical examples!  What a cunning and dastardly plan!

You're actually comparing kamikazis with ships staying and getting a nice tan?  Apples and oranges my friend.
Maby you're not familiar with the term "have to" or "needed"


Quote
Quote from: General Battuta
Erm. What is your objective in proving that it was stupid for the Shivans to leave all their tiny ships in the path of the supernova? I've forgotten that too.
He wants to prove they screwed up doing.....something.  A conclusion I can't comprehend given the decidedly badass final cutscene.  Not humanizing the Shivans should be akin to a cardinal rule, second only to "Don't explain them in a way that makes them LAME."

And how do you know they are not lame? For all you know [V] might have planed them as a big galactic joke.
Speaking of which, according to you, making mistakes makes you lame? Great, we're all lame according to that. Shivans are perfect apparently. Tehy make no mistakes. Yeah right.

P.S. - I said it's highly possible they made a mistake, not that it absolutely has to be true....

Quote
You're correct there. Are you familiar with the work of Godel, particularly his completeness theorem? One of the points he made was that intuition is necessary to complete a system of logic -- no purely mechanistic logic can describe the universe. The Shivan capacity for that 'intuition' may be far greater than our own, in just a way that ours outstrips that of a rat.

We do have quite a good understanding of both tactics and logic. I many not like humaity, but I must give it some credit..
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline blowfish

  • 211
  • Join the cult of KILL MY ROUTER!!!!!!!!!!1
Oh dear God(s).  This is getting worse than the physics debates at the BtRL forum.

And how do you know they are not lame? For all you know [V] might have planed them as a big galactic joke.

Somehow, I doubt that though.

 

Offline Agent_Koopa

  • 28
  • These words make the page load that much slower.
I summed up my theory in one post, complete with explanation.
Interestingly enough, this signature is none of the following:
A witty remark on whatever sad state of affairs the world may or may not be in
A series of localized forum in-jokes
A clever and self-referential comment on the nature of signatures themselves.

Hobo Queens are Crowned, but Hobo Kings are Found.

 
You're actually comparing kamikazis with ships staying and getting a nice tan?  Apples and oranges my friend.
Maby you're not familiar with the term "have to" or "needed"

Better, but you still ignored the second part, where their troops kept fighting long past the point where the only viable option was immediate surrender.  The idea was to illustrate all the difference a belief structure can make when determining the value of human life, which is a tremendous one.  Repeatedly arguing that "throwing ships away" isn't logical, while pretty much your style*, is still just a conclusion you're making based on personal views on how to wage war.  The Shivans almost certainly don't think like you though.

Anyways, how are planes crashing into aircraft carriers with the intention of sinking them and dying in the process (which they knew before setting out would happen) not like ships staying and fighting to keep enemy vessels occupied so they'll both be destroyed when the supernova triggers?  Both of them are suicidal gestures, and before you go on about inevitable destruction by supernova, keep in mind that Deimos wouldn't have been there had it not been for the Moloch.  It might not have been headed for the node, and it might not have made it in time if it was, but it was only where it was because it was fighting.  There's no guarantee that it would have survived, but the battle with the Moloch made it's demise a certainty.

*Argue the same thing, over and over, until the other guy gets bored and stops arguing back, then claim victory.  Huzzah!
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 11:38:02 am by Marcus Vesper »
Everything is better with monkeys.  Even pie.

That is the best first post I have ever seen.

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
Dude, the japanese were loosing that battle.
The island was holy. It was their land they were protecting and they decided to fight to the last and cause as much losses for the US. To make their victory a bitter one. Nothing unheard of. Happened a lot in history.

Shivans weren't loosing. Quite the opposite. ..Would US have nuked the island with all their troops still on it, only to get rid of the last 10 enemy soldiers hiding?
As far as we know, Capella wasn't holy for the shivans.

As to your remark on "how to wage a war"..let me put it this way: I'd hate to be in any army over which you had command.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 
Dude, the japanese were loosing that battle.
The island was holy. It was their land they were protecting and they decided to fight to the last and cause as much losses for the US. To make their victory a bitter one. Nothing unheard of. Happened a lot in history.

Shivans weren't loosing. Quite the opposite. ..Would US have nuked the island with all their troops still on it, only to get rid of the last 10 enemy soldiers hiding?
As far as we know, Capella wasn't holy for the shivans.

As to your remark on "how to wage a war"..let me put it this way: I'd hate to be in any army over which you had command.
It wasn't just one battle, every single island campaign played out in a similar manner.  Iwo Jima just had a very famous photograph to make it stand out.

What constitutes victory?  Were the Shivans even trying to "win"?  How is Shivan society structured?  What do they care about most?  What is more important to them then any losses they might endure?  Neither of us know, but I'm not the one assigning human characteristics to the raging xenophobes and thus jumping to conclusions.

For all you know they have a caste system, and the Sathanas were a higher cast that considered Shivans in the other vessels expendable, and Shivans as a race place little emphasis on the individual to start with.  Then you could say that the Moloch in that cutscene didn't know it was about to 'splode.  Or perhaps they have multiple directives and the destruction of other spacefaring lifeforms and whatever it is they were doing with the supernova just took precedence over survival.  We don't know if all Shivan vessels are even piloted, if there are different species of Shivans, if they aren't one united race, etc!

Just a reminder: That crack about my command abilities, while slightly relevant this time and thus commendable because it's not as lazy as last time, is still an ad hominem attack, and as such a logical fallacy.  Thanks for playing though!  Seriously, how on earth did you read that as "I think Shivan tactics are the bestest and I'll be using them in every possible situation I can, whoohoo!"?  That's pretty weak, even for someone of your AwesometasticTM debating skills.
Everything is better with monkeys.  Even pie.

That is the best first post I have ever seen.

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
What constitutes victory?  Were the Shivans even trying to "win"?  How is Shivan society structured?  What do they care about most?  What is more important to them then any losses they might endure?  Neither of us know, but I'm not the one assigning human characteristics to the raging xenophobes and thus jumping to conclusions.

For all you know they have a caste system, and the Sathanas were a higher cast that considered Shivans in the other vessels expendable, and Shivans as a race place little emphasis on the individual to start with.  Then you could say that the Moloch in that cutscene didn't know it was about to 'splode.  Or perhaps they have multiple directives and the destruction of other spacefaring lifeforms and whatever it is they were doing with the supernova just took precedence over survival.  We don't know if all Shivan vessels are even piloted, if there are different species of Shivans, if they aren't one united race, etc!

You might try to list what we do know about shivans instead of what we don't know. Then maybe we can get somewhere.

Some of your theories are rather good and do offer explanations, but most of them have enough holes in them to sink Titanic.

Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 
What constitutes victory?  Were the Shivans even trying to "win"?  How is Shivan society structured?  What do they care about most?  What is more important to them then any losses they might endure?  Neither of us know, but I'm not the one assigning human characteristics to the raging xenophobes and thus jumping to conclusions.

For all you know they have a caste system, and the Sathanas were a higher cast that considered Shivans in the other vessels expendable, and Shivans as a race place little emphasis on the individual to start with.  Then you could say that the Moloch in that cutscene didn't know it was about to 'splode.  Or perhaps they have multiple directives and the destruction of other spacefaring lifeforms and whatever it is they were doing with the supernova just took precedence over survival.  We don't know if all Shivan vessels are even piloted, if there are different species of Shivans, if they aren't one united race, etc!
You might try to list what we do know about shivans instead of what we don't know. Then maybe we can get somewhere.

Some of your theories are rather good and do offer explanations, but most of them have enough holes in them to sink Titanic.
Ha ha!  For the record I don't actually believe any of those.  Those are most emphatically not my "theories", they're just the first things that popped into my head while I'm trying to force the notion that conventional human assessment of the Shivans goals and methods isn't a good idea....into yours

As for what we do know about the Shivans, the words "almost nothing" spring to mind, with good reason!  The live Shivan specimens GTI had captured were (correct me if I'm remembering tech room details inaccurately) possibly just constructs and not actual Shivans.  Their appearance could be a sort of robotic suit, and the extent of cybernetic versus organic material is also unknown.  While they exhibit certain traits of a hive mind, our own xenobiologists warn against drawing that conclusion.  We do know they communicate in the EM range, but how Bosch and the original ETAK researchers translated Shivan signals (and whether it was at all accurate) remains unknown.  They appear to have developed in zero gravity, suggesting that their current form is not their original one, or that they were designed by something else to operate in those conditions.  Shivan cultural understanding?  Zip, the only one you could expect to have any semblence if an idea is a little hard to reach these days ever since he scuttled the Iceni.

I do take solace in the knowledge that none of the things we know about the Shivans lends any weight to your arguments though.


« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 03:40:32 pm by Marcus Vesper »
Everything is better with monkeys.  Even pie.

That is the best first post I have ever seen.

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR

As for what we do know about the Shivans, the words "almost nothing" spring to mind, with good reason!  The live Shivan specimens GTI had captured were (correct me if I'm remembering tech room details inaccurately) possibly just constructs and not actual Shivans.  Their appearance could be a sort of robotic suit, and the extent of cybernetic versus organic material is also unknown.  While they exhibit certain traits of a hive mind, our own xenobiologists warn against drawing that conclusion.  We do know they communicate in the EM range, but how Bosch and the original ETAK researchers translated Shivan signals (and whether it was at all accurate) remains unknown.  They appear to have developed in zero gravity, suggesting that their current form is not their original one, or that they were designed by something else to operate in those conditions.  Shivan cultural understanding?  Zip, the only one you could expect to have any semblence if an idea is  little hard to reach these days ever since he scuttled the Iceni.

Nope. [V] said time and time again what we see in hallfight and in the techrom are real shivans.

Quote
I do take solace in the knowledge that none of the things we know about the Shivans lends any weight to your arguments though.
Apparently I know more about the shivies than you do. And honestly, I don't see absolutely anything in canon material that contradicts in any way what I said.
What is there in the techroom to give any weight to your arguments?



[/quote]
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
I have to say, Trashman, Vesper's theories make a lot of sense.

I'm inclined to go with what he's saying.

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
With what? That the shivan mistake is highly unlikely? That they planned on destroying most of their ships?
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!