Author Topic: Cruisers  (Read 11939 times)

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Offline Wanderer

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As long as you do not have 'same turret cooldown' flag there the firewait doesnt affect the turrets fire waits too badly.
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Offline Polpolion

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that's overkill, even to me :)

It's more fun to watch, though. :nervous:

 
Quote
at least one of those stats should be reduced by a order of magnitude for any kind of balance.

I suppose he could have reduced the fire-wait another order of magnitude, but when you're pumping out a thousand shots per second, it might just as well be a beam cannon.

*Ducks*

 

Offline AlphaOne

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Yeah, I'm from star wars, having played the games more then freespace by a long shot ....


HERETIC ! Someone bring the tarr and feathers i'l bring the gasoline and the pole to tie him to then we can burn these heretics and have a nice little festival afterwards :D

Or we can just feed him to THE resident shivan here. You KNOW who im talking about.....
Die shivan die!!
Then jumps into his apple stealth pie and goes of to war.What a brave lad....what a brave lad say the ladies in red.
 

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Offline Snail

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That's kind of funny, your misspelling of tar. "Tarr Chronicles" is another heretical space shooter game.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Offline Kosh

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Quote
And compared to other cruisers, which is mainly what they were compared to?


Compared to an SRed and a Green Beam, which IIRC does more damage per shot and at half the refire wait time.

Btw, what do the tables say about SVas?


Quote
The turret coverage in freespace 2, especially on larger ships like destroyers and corvettes, is horrible IMO.

The Deimos actually has very good coverage, but you certainly have a point about some of the others. A lot of GTVA ships like the Orion were relics from the great war and terran-vasudan war, which was 30+ years before FS2 starts, so they are supposed to have weaker coverage.

That said Vasudan ships always have a weak underside, which has almost no protection. Not sure why.

And besides, and Orion could slag an ISD without too much trouble. :P
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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got a point there. In ship-to-ship combat freespace owns pretty much against anything else, but point defense was always weak IMO

Yes. I am a heratic. Live with it. :P
Fun while it lasted.

Then bitter.

 
got a point there. In ship-to-ship combat freespace owns pretty much against anything else, but point defense was always weak IMO

Yes. I am a heratic. Live with it. :P

FS is WW II style combat.
In WW II a bunch of carrier based bombers could sink any ship.

Therefore, in FS a bunch of destroyer based bombers could blow up any other destroyer.
BTW- if capships' anti-fighter weapons are weak, try to kill a Rakshasa with a Herc II on Insane.
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Offline Kosh

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got a point there. In ship-to-ship combat freespace owns pretty much against anything else, but point defense was always weak IMO

Yes. I am a heratic. Live with it. :P


ISD's also have exposed bridges, so any ships armed with beams (even a lowly fenris) is a dire threat to them, just because of that.


The Orion's point defences are weak even by FS1 standards, because it's primary role is anti-cap ship stuff. An Aeolus has quite good up close and personal defences.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline Hades

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got a point there. In ship-to-ship combat freespace owns pretty much against anything else, but point defense was always weak IMO

Yes. I am a heratic. Live with it. :P
Try going against a Orion in insane with an Ursa.
[22:29] <sigtau> Hello, #hard-light?  I'm trying to tell a girl she looks really good for someone who doesn't exercise.  How do I word that non-offensively?
[22:29] <RangerKarl|AtWork> "you look like a big tasty muffin"
----
<batwota> wouldn’t that mean that it’s prepared to kiss your ass if you flank it :p
<batwota> wow
<batwota> KILL

 
Quote from: Prophet
Now now... Let's not forget one major thing here... Most cruisers that were still in use during the 2nd Great War were designed during or predating Terran Vasudan war. Now can any of you children tell me what major difference modern fighters have to those of TVW era fighters? That's right, shields.

You go against any cruiser, including Aten, with a wing of unshielded fighters, and you will be challenged. Especially in FS1. IMO FS2 did terrible things to blob turrets making them little more than waterballoon launchers.
Eons ago, when I got FS1, I thought it would be a jolly good idea to have a hostile Aten surrounded a couple of freighters against me in a Herc. Unshielded of course since even back then I thought shields were wussy, lame  and cheating. So I got killed before even getting two shots off. So I thought bummer and fitted shields on my Herc. This time I got off three shots and a couple of hasty evasions before getting killed.

Thank you, Prophet. Please have a big cookie. I've been thinking about this very issue lately, and you hit the nail right on the head.

The seeming vulnerability of capitol ships is indeed a result of the development of shield technology. If you've ever noticed, when you attack a capship you can usually expect to take one or two turret hits, but no more then that, as their travel speed and rate of fire are abysmal. They're very powerful, but they can't chew through your shields fast enough to do anything.

When you don't have shields, then one or two hits is enough. You're taking weapons designed to be effective against capitol ships right in the face, and you're in a fighter. That hurts. Remember that early FS1 mission where you have to attack a Vasudan supply depot? Those freighters are brutal. The development of shields changed the fighter/capship dynamic considerably, and that led to the development of the previously un-needed flak cannon. I think that's as good a canonical retcon as any, hmm? It's also a good canon excuse for the fact that the GTA's only bomber at the start of the Great War was the Athena, which was light and maneuverable enough to weave through capship defenses. (IMO, the GTA having no bombers besides that at the start is probably a game balance issue, where the dynamics of the game demand that you slowly introduce new ships and weapons as you progress in the game, but this is a good in-story excuse that makes perfect sense.)

As for the usefulness of Cruisers at all- in real life, cruisers are big ships, that have nearly as much firepower as a battleship, but have less armor and are faster. They're used as fast-attack vessels that can do commerce raiding, and are capable of outrunning and outmanuvering heavier enemy ships while still packing a lot of firepower. That very much describes FS Cruisers mission role, although they're closer to real life destroyers, in my opinion. (Corvettes in FS2 are really "Cruisers," and "Destroyers" should be called "battleships.") The problem with FreeSpace is that you don't see enough of the supposed world, so instead of seeing all the things that Cruisers could be good for, it seems like they're only there to shoot at other Cruisers.

The point of a Cruiser is to kill enemy capital ships. In my opinion, this is a job it can do far better then fighters or bombers. It packs much better firepower then a fighter or even two wings of bombers, and it's better to have a heavily damaged cruiser and a dead enemy cruiser rather then two mostly destroyed wings of bombers (and their fighter escort,) and a dead enemy. They're heavy guns. Bombers? That's what your own fighters are for- escort.

Also take into account a few other features of Cruisers. First and foremost is cost. It's cheaper to build five Fenris cruisers then one massive Orion. The Orion can only be in one place at a time, your Cruisers can cover the area. Also, Cruisers are much more maneuverable in combat, and can bring their weapons to bear easier. That's even more important in the age of beam weaponry. This means they're useful in assaults on enemy Destroyers, because you can sneak them into a place where their small size makes them inaccessible to half or even three quarters of the enemy destroyers guns, whereas a larger ship would take the full brunt. They can also diesngange, if they need too. They're pretty cheap, and they can turn a close slugfest between two destroyers into an easy win for your forces. Not bad.

Then there's the matter of turret coverage. Cruisers are less vulnerable to fighter and bomber attack because they have all their firepower concentrated in one small area- if you're pointing your nose at the Cruiser, you're pointing your nose right at most of her guns, which gives them a low-deflection shot. Destroyers have their turrets spread out over their entire massive hull, which gives them worse coverage. I should note that even with shields, a Fenris is a REAL pain to attack alone, or even with a few wingmen. Attacking cruisers with anything less then two wings to divide up it's turret fire is a real, real chore. Don't believe me? Go play the first mission of the user-made mini-campaign in Silent Threat, where you have to scan a hostile Fenris. Eeek. On the other hand, it's easy to take out a destroyer on your lonesome, if it doesn't have any fighter protection. Just bomb, run away to re-arm, rinse, repeat. Very easy.

Now there's one more thing to consider, and it's a big one- the mission role trade-off. The reason Terran Cruisers are so weak is because every weapon on their hull is designed to kick butt and take names on enemy capital ships, and it is indeed a terror in that role, but that leaves it with no effective anti-fighter weapons (except for the Leviathan, which has a single missile launcher.) Now contrast that with the SC Cain, which is a terror to attack in a fighter. Go pop into FRED1 and see what weapons the Cain is packing... that's right! They're Shivan Heavy Lasers, which is a powerful fighter class weapon! They have a higher rate of fire and MUCH better velocity, which means they're great for swatting those pesky fighters and bombers. However, as everyone has noticed, this means that the Fenris, packing capital ship class weaponry, slays the Cain's face off. Fighter-class guns cannot compete with the power of capital ship class turrets. Hitting the target isn't an issue with Cruisers- it's all about raw power.

Now contrast the Lilith, or the Fenris. The Lilith has a hideously powerful array of capital ship turrets- it can tear any Terran cruiser apart and pose a serious problem to Destroyers in a fleet engagement. However, that means that enemy fighers can strafe it all day with little opposition (though the dual missile launchers on both Shivan cruisers give all their variants better fighter cover then the Terran ships.) That's the trade-off you make- anti-fighter, or anti-capship?

Wanna have some fun? Pop into FRED1 and load out a Fenris or a Leviathan with nothing but Banshees in every turret. Set three wings of Basalisks to come after it with Hornets, and see what happens. Heck, you can even set them to respawn infinitely and see how long the Fenris lasts. The Fenris will school them handily. But now it's going to lose in a toe-to-toe with a Lilith, and is now the mere equal of a Cain.

You could easily introduce a specially modified "flak ship" variant of the Fenris or Leviathan for escort duty. If you want an example of a good use for cruisers, make a mission where you send them up against Shivan freighters- you know, those scary, scary freighters that have incredibly strong hulls and wicked turret protection? Yeah, commerce raiding is what a fast-attack cruiser like the Fenris was built for.

Well, that's just my personal over-analysis, for whatever it's worth.

 
Maybe they should just develop better blob turrets. Those things are decades old. I don't think there have been any improvements on them at all. At least older fighters and capital ships got new weapons.

 
Quote from: Prophet
Now now... Let's not forget one major thing here... Most cruisers that were still in use during the 2nd Great War were designed during or predating Terran Vasudan war. Now can any of you children tell me what major difference modern fighters have to those of TVW era fighters? That's right, shields.

You go against any cruiser, including Aten, with a wing of unshielded fighters, and you will be challenged. Especially in FS1. IMO FS2 did terrible things to blob turrets making them little more than waterballoon launchers.
Eons ago, when I got FS1, I thought it would be a jolly good idea to have a hostile Aten surrounded a couple of freighters against me in a Herc. Unshielded of course since even back then I thought shields were wussy, lame  and cheating. So I got killed before even getting two shots off. So I thought bummer and fitted shields on my Herc. This time I got off three shots and a couple of hasty evasions before getting killed.

Thank you, Prophet. Please have a big cookie. I've been thinking about this very issue lately, and you hit the nail right on the head.

The seeming vulnerability of capitol ships is indeed a result of the development of shield technology. If you've ever noticed, when you attack a capship you can usually expect to take one or two turret hits, but no more then that, as their travel speed and rate of fire are abysmal. They're very powerful, but they can't chew through your shields fast enough to do anything.

When you don't have shields, then one or two hits is enough. You're taking weapons designed to be effective against capitol ships right in the face, and you're in a fighter. That hurts. Remember that early FS1 mission where you have to attack a Vasudan supply depot? Those freighters are brutal. The development of shields changed the fighter/capship dynamic considerably, and that led to the development of the previously un-needed flak cannon. I think that's as good a canonical retcon as any, hmm? It's also a good canon excuse for the fact that the GTA's only bomber at the start of the Great War was the Athena, which was light and maneuverable enough to weave through capship defenses. (IMO, the GTA having no bombers besides that at the start is probably a game balance issue, where the dynamics of the game demand that you slowly introduce new ships and weapons as you progress in the game, but this is a good in-story excuse that makes perfect sense.)

As for the usefulness of Cruisers at all- in real life, cruisers are big ships, that have nearly as much firepower as a battleship, but have less armor and are faster. They're used as fast-attack vessels that can do commerce raiding, and are capable of outrunning and outmanuvering heavier enemy ships while still packing a lot of firepower. That very much describes FS Cruisers mission role, although they're closer to real life destroyers, in my opinion. (Corvettes in FS2 are really "Cruisers," and "Destroyers" should be called "battleships.") The problem with FreeSpace is that you don't see enough of the supposed world, so instead of seeing all the things that Cruisers could be good for, it seems like they're only there to shoot at other Cruisers.

The point of a Cruiser is to kill enemy capital ships. In my opinion, this is a job it can do far better then fighters or bombers. It packs much better firepower then a fighter or even two wings of bombers, and it's better to have a heavily damaged cruiser and a dead enemy cruiser rather then two mostly destroyed wings of bombers (and their fighter escort,) and a dead enemy. They're heavy guns. Bombers? That's what your own fighters are for- escort.

Also take into account a few other features of Cruisers. First and foremost is cost. It's cheaper to build five Fenris cruisers then one massive Orion. The Orion can only be in one place at a time, your Cruisers can cover the area. Also, Cruisers are much more maneuverable in combat, and can bring their weapons to bear easier. That's even more important in the age of beam weaponry. This means they're useful in assaults on enemy Destroyers, because you can sneak them into a place where their small size makes them inaccessible to half or even three quarters of the enemy destroyers guns, whereas a larger ship would take the full brunt. They can also diesngange, if they need too. They're pretty cheap, and they can turn a close slugfest between two destroyers into an easy win for your forces. Not bad.

Then there's the matter of turret coverage. Cruisers are less vulnerable to fighter and bomber attack because they have all their firepower concentrated in one small area- if you're pointing your nose at the Cruiser, you're pointing your nose right at most of her guns, which gives them a low-deflection shot. Destroyers have their turrets spread out over their entire massive hull, which gives them worse coverage. I should note that even with shields, a Fenris is a REAL pain to attack alone, or even with a few wingmen. Attacking cruisers with anything less then two wings to divide up it's turret fire is a real, real chore. Don't believe me? Go play the first mission of the user-made mini-campaign in Silent Threat, where you have to scan a hostile Fenris. Eeek. On the other hand, it's easy to take out a destroyer on your lonesome, if it doesn't have any fighter protection. Just bomb, run away to re-arm, rinse, repeat. Very easy.

Now there's one more thing to consider, and it's a big one- the mission role trade-off. The reason Terran Cruisers are so weak is because every weapon on their hull is designed to kick butt and take names on enemy capital ships, and it is indeed a terror in that role, but that leaves it with no effective anti-fighter weapons (except for the Leviathan, which has a single missile launcher.) Now contrast that with the SC Cain, which is a terror to attack in a fighter. Go pop into FRED1 and see what weapons the Cain is packing... that's right! They're Shivan Heavy Lasers, which is a powerful fighter class weapon! They have a higher rate of fire and MUCH better velocity, which means they're great for swatting those pesky fighters and bombers. However, as everyone has noticed, this means that the Fenris, packing capital ship class weaponry, slays the Cain's face off. Fighter-class guns cannot compete with the power of capital ship class turrets. Hitting the target isn't an issue with Cruisers- it's all about raw power.

Now contrast the Lilith, or the Fenris. The Lilith has a hideously powerful array of capital ship turrets- it can tear any Terran cruiser apart and pose a serious problem to Destroyers in a fleet engagement. However, that means that enemy fighers can strafe it all day with little opposition (though the dual missile launchers on both Shivan cruisers give all their variants better fighter cover then the Terran ships.) That's the trade-off you make- anti-fighter, or anti-capship?

Wanna have some fun? Pop into FRED1 and load out a Fenris or a Leviathan with nothing but Banshees in every turret. Set three wings of Basalisks to come after it with Hornets, and see what happens. Heck, you can even set them to respawn infinitely and see how long the Fenris lasts. The Fenris will school them handily. But now it's going to lose in a toe-to-toe with a Lilith, and is now the mere equal of a Cain.

You could easily introduce a specially modified "flak ship" variant of the Fenris or Leviathan for escort duty. If you want an example of a good use for cruisers, make a mission where you send them up against Shivan freighters- you know, those scary, scary freighters that have incredibly strong hulls and wicked turret protection? Yeah, commerce raiding is what a fast-attack cruiser like the Fenris was built for.

Well, that's just my personal over-analysis, for whatever it's worth.

But you know, standard kewlness and probably almost every persons imagination about space power are giant, hulking, deadly destroyers. And FS was really not developed in the sense of being realistic.
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I shall rrreach worrrld domination!

 

Offline Wanderer

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Yeah... FS like all other spaceshooters vastly emphasize fighters and bombers above all other ships. FreeSpace is almost the worst in that category given that in SW and WC universes also larger ships had shields etc. IMHO to get the game to 'reasonably realistic' every single turret (apart from bomber turrets) ought have firepower roughly equal to 2 times the standard fighter carried weapon - 2 because in fighters weapons are commonly in twin (or more) mounts while turrets usually use only single mount.
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Offline TrashMan

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Considering that on some bigger ships, the smallest turret is bigger than a fighter.... :lol: .. the lack of firepower in that turret is...strange..considering it can carry a fighter reactor or two and has no engine output..you'd think a turret like that could support 8 Keysers easily :P

For a test, make a Kayser variant with 8X the rate of fire and stick it on a capship! ;7
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Offline Snail

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Considering that on some bigger ships, the smallest turret is bigger than a fighter.... :lol:

But that would be too expensive. :drevil:

 

Offline Koth

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Offline Snail

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Oh, the workers who aren't being paid enough, go on strike, and then get vaporized by a BFRed.

 
Who cares if there are Shivans out there bend on exterminating your race?

The pilot of the Erynies that needs to go to battle with 8x GTW Training Lasers.
'Teeth of the Tiger' - campaign in the making
Story, Ships, Weapons, Project Leader.