Author Topic: Is the GTVA pinned to subspace?  (Read 11647 times)

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Offline eliex

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Re: Is the GTVA pinned to subspace?

 Do you think that it is realistic that two destroyers have their beams turrets knocked out by their smart Alpha 1's and Destroyer A jumps out into subspace (jump node) and then Destroyer B tells all her fighters to pull back, then it follows Destroyer A into subspace.

 When the two destroyers trade shots and some miss, do you think that the *plasma* cannon shots will energize the subspace field that it might collapse ( destruction of the Lucifer example ) or it might make the travel between one system to the other MMUUUUUCCCCCHHHHH
faster. Like the Delta Serpentis-Sol jump takes about 7 minutes, according to Command in the final mission in FS1, so it's canon.

 If Destroyer A gets killed and Destroyer B has only about 3% structure integrity left, then would the trasit between the dimensions of subspace and realspace make Destroyer B totally disintegrate?  :confused:
   

 

Offline Polpolion

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Re: Is the GTVA pinned to subspace?
My whole point is this.

*In Real-life the ships travel a lot faster than they do the game.
Ie a trip to the moon in Normal space for a destroyer would only take about a day in real-life, where as in the game  to travel that same distance would take most of a year (1/2 to 3/4) as i worked out.

*Therefore if the Ship's subspace drive is damaged beyond repair - that rules out field replacements as well - but it's normal space engines are still functioning, then the ship can "walk home" - travel back the old fashioned way. And as the ships travel faster, the trip only takes a few weeks/months as opposed to years.

Besides the way i understand it. The Subspace drive only opens the portal, the is then pulled in by the forces.

Think of it like this: 
You = Ship [Note -you'd be wearing a space suit  :p to hole-pokers 
Your Fist = subspace drive
Interior of space station = Normal Space
Window to ouside of space station = Barrier between SS & NS
Space outside spacestation = Subspace

Your are on a space station          =   Ship in normal Space

You punch through and shatter the Window with the outside view = Subspace Drive Puching through the barrier between SS & NS - portal opens

You are ejected from the spacestation by the Explosive decompression = ship is drawn through by the tidal forces

You are floating outside the spacestation = Ship in Subspace

The Window self-repairs behind you stopping others from following = Barrier between SS & NS self-repairs and no-one drawn in - portal closes, no-one else can use it

[Note if the ship is disabled, that's you getting caught on somthing preventing you from being ejected. Maybe your boots are magnetic or something or you are caught on the window frame]

Jumping back to Subspace = You puching through an underwater window from the exterior - the water pressure carries you inside

I know what you're trying to say, but that's an invalid analogy.

1) You can't punch through a space station's window. Otherwise the pressure differences would do the work for you.
2) Even if you could, it's very possible that you break your hand when you do. You don't break your subspace drive when you jump.

let me make this Clear. THe point that Im trying to make is what the Ships would be like in REAL-LIFE.

We all know how the ships are in the Games. But I'm trying to point out that if the Ships were real, then the point i've been trying to explain ad nausium would Actually occur

Prehaps this will clear things up

GAME - all due to playability issues
Capital Ships travel rediculously slow
No Momentum/Inertia - The Glide ability in some Mods doesnt count. I'm talking proper physics
Disabling Subspace Drives Disables the Main Engines stranding the ship until a field repair can be effected. This is not always possible. Unless it is scripted to be unable to jump. At the in game speed, it takes months just to reach the moon. Travelling back halfway from Mars (at it's closest point to Earth) would take Years

REAL-LIFE
Capital Ships would travel alot faster. I'm talking faster than the Apollo Space craft travelled > They reached the moon in 3 days usin Inertia and Course-Corrections. In RL, FS Caps would reach the moon in about a day. The smaller ones would reach it faster.

There would be momentum/Inertia and all that other physics junk
Disabling Subspace Drive doesn't disable main Engines. If the SSDrive is damaged beyond repair, then the ship can still fly home in descent amount of time. If able to reach the moon in a day, Then traveling back halfway from Mars (at it's Closest point to Earth) would only take a matter of months in comparison

 


Good point, but you forget one major piece of information: Freespace isn't real life, and therefore isn't bound by laws of physics. (Hence why you can hear stuff while flying, the lack of Newtonian physics, visible photon beam cannons, etc...)

Look. In my opinion, Subspace is used mostly because yes its faster. However, they still keep the ships prepared with good old-fashioned Rockets as backup.

Relying wholey on Subspace is putting all you're eggs in one basket. All one needs to do is invent a weapon that disrupts subspace enought that it cant be used and you guys are in a motorboat up a stagnant creek and the engine has fallen off and no paddle.

Having both SS and Newtonian Drives means you have both the engine and a paddle. So if you loose the engine you can still row to shore

Besides, Snail, They may not say it happens, but they don't say it doesnt happen.

Not confirming some thing doesnt make it false
Not denying it doesnt make it true,

I will go on believing in my oppinion, Thank you very much

1) FS ships never use rockets.
2) "Relying wholey on Subspace..." That's like saying all you need to do to exterminate all matter in the universe is to invent a weapon that destroys matter.
3) Just because something is your opinion doesn't make it sensible. Examples:

Opinion: Freespace is awesome.
Fact: Freespace is a game.

compare to your "opinion": Freespace ships move faster than they do.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2008, 08:55:26 pm by thesizzler »

 

Offline terran_emperor

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Re: Is the GTVA pinned to subspace?
1 My analagy was a rough one -  i knew the holes. Yes you wouldn;t normally be able to punch through a space station window. Within the analagy, thats akin to Today's space craft - they can break through the batrrier into subspace - if it really Exists.
Now say your fist is made of a metal (one of the strong ones - dont start about the  weight). It punches through.

2 Homogeneity is a weakness, versitility is strength. You should never  rely too much on one thing. ie subspace. I agree that my mention of an SScollapsing was extreame though. Im just saying that for intrasystem travel, subspace should be is just an option. Sure its the more popular option, but at least their are alternatives

3 Okay - not rockets but the 24th centuary descendant of Current Engines

4 Im saying that if the Ships were real, then theyd travel faster than they do in the games. As i have stated - playability.

:hopping: :mad: I KNOW THAT ITS A GAME! IM NOT STUPID!  :hopping: :mad: i know that it is fiction and thus not bound by the laws of nature, physics, reality or anything else :mad2:

 
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Offline eliex

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Re: Is the GTVA pinned to subspace?

 Uh-oh. You don't want to let Karajorma hear that.


:hopping: :mad: I KNOW THAT ITS A GAME! IM NOT STUPID!  :hopping: :mad: i know that it is fiction and thus not bound by the laws of nature, physics, reality or anything else :mad2:

 

 

Offline terran_emperor

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Re: Is the GTVA pinned to subspace?
No offence Karajorma
e = m csarged - Relativity according to Sarge [Red vs Blue]

TRUE SHIVAN

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Offline Killer Whale

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Re: Is the GTVA pinned to subspace?
I'm bored,  :o

A car travelling at 100km/hr is going at 27.777 reacurring m/s

A Boeing 747 cruisers at 985 km/hr is going at 273.6111 reacurring m/s

(according to a book published in 2000)
The land speed record is 341.0341666 reacurring m/s (1227.723 km/hr {don't ask me why this has got decimals going into the thousandths and the others have none!!})

The water speed record is 142.777 reacurring m/s (514 km/hr)

The world speed record (air) is 2020.555 reacurring m/s (7274 km/hr)

I'm sure a high tech super speed space interceptor without friction and going having high tech engines wouldn't travel at a little over half the speed of an airliner!! But as i already said, it wouldn't be fun to travel the length of largest space faring vessel (known) ever constructed in a matter of seconds!! PLAYABILITY!! :D

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Is the GTVA pinned to subspace?
No offence Karajorma

Don't worry, thesizzler should be more worried, he's the one who brought up the subject. :)

Look. In my opinion, Subspace is used mostly because yes its faster. However, they still keep the ships prepared with good old-fashioned Rockets as backup.

Why? There's no point taking, weeks or months to get somewhere if you can warp in another ship to tow it away.

In addition, there about a hundred missions when a ship is disabled and it is able to repair the engine. I believe that every ship has a backup subspace drive that can be rewired to the main network should its subspace drive be disabled.

I agree that in-universe ships move faster than they would in the game, but that's still no reason to make a journey take months or years if it can take an hour or a minute with subspace. I believe that the GTVA is putting all their eggs in one basket, for better or for worse.

Supporting my opinion:
  • We have never seen a single ship use rockets. (!!)
  • We have never heard of any mention of this happening (!!)
  • They can warp in another ship to tow them away
  • If you could use these rockets then they would use them during combat
  • Considering it in-universe, they would already move extremely fast, and there is no need for these retro (as in 1960s) rockets.
  • Assuming that you cannot simply jump in near to a node, why don't convoy ships just use their rockets to approach them at high speed?


BTW, please keep the  :mad: :hopping: :mad2: :rolleyes: :doubt: smileys out of this, it's just bound to call in an airstrike of hot, hot lockage. This is just a discussion, anyway, it's not like we're trying to make enemies or anything (or at least I'm not...)

 
Re: Is the GTVA pinned to subspace?
Personally,  I think the in-game speeds are just relative speeds. Everything happens in orbit around the star (look at the asteroids, for example), and the speed a ship can reach without being sucked into the star or getting thrown to the outer boundaries of the system, is limited and somehow related to its mass.
This also means that FS ships DO move way faster than indicated (since they're in orbit), but :v: didn't want it to be that complicated, so they decided to indicate relative speeds instead.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Is the GTVA pinned to subspace?

 Uh-oh. You don't want to let Karajorma hear that.


:hopping: :mad: I KNOW THAT ITS A GAME! IM NOT STUPID!  :hopping: :mad: i know that it is fiction and thus not bound by the laws of nature, physics, reality or anything else :mad2:

 

Actually I said I'd ban the next person who used "It's a game!" as an excuse to try to stop an in-universe debate. That's not what terran_emperor was doing so he's welcome to continue even though I disagree with the point he's trying to make (longer explanation of why I think he's wrong along with an in-universe explanation is on its way when I've finished turning it over in my head).
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

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Offline Polpolion

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Re: Is the GTVA pinned to subspace?
:nervous: umm... hmm... Just to... "clarify" the point I was making with that line is that you can't compare current technology to FS technology because of the huge gap in times. It'd be like some 17th century dude saying "oh! in the year 2000 the horses are going to run super fast! And the boats will have ultra sails to go at a billion miles an hour!" I'm wasn't saying that in a scapegoat tactic, I'm reminding you that this is set 350 years in the future, and things are very different; It's not necessarily inhibited by many of today's paradigms of space and stuff.

*whew


And the other main point:
Quote
4 Im saying that if the Ships were real, then they'd travel faster than they do in the games. As i have stated - playability.

That is not an opinion. It's non-canon. If FS says something, it's true in the universe. If it says there is no god, then there is no god in FS. If it says that the ships move in meters per second, then the ships move in meters per second. You don't just change something solely in the game for gameplay purposes. Look at Freelancer; If they tried that, they'd be so screwed it wouldn't even be funny.

 

Offline terran_emperor

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Re: Is the GTVA pinned to subspace?
Sizzler
Ive never played Freelancer. And i know 4 is non-canon.

At least KW and Snail get that point about the speeds

I understand what you are saying in your 1st point.

Look at it this way:
If the Same guy said that The Horse+Carriage would go faster, then he is right in a manner of speaking
Modern descendent of the horse+Carriage = The Automobile (Horse = Engine, The actual frame where you sit = Carriage)

And yes i already knew the point about it being set in the future.

Another Analogy
Okay, Say you are travelling from New York to LA.
*Most travel by Plane - That's Equivalent to Travelling in subspace, (Mercuary to Pluto in one go)

But you still have the options of going by Train, by car(lorry, Monster Truck, whatever) or on foot.
Now i grant that each of those longer than the previous, but they are still options

Train could be the journy in a series of short hops (Mercury-Venus-Earth-Moon-Mars-Ceres-Jupiter-Saturn-Uranus-Neptune-Pluto)

Car would be traveling without subspace

*Foot could be travelling via EVA. Now i grant that in Real-life that distance is too far to travel realistically in EVA.
In fact this comarison /\ is stupid  ;). but you can get my drift from the other 3.

Snail
Did you read point 3?
Prehaps I should have said 24th Centuary equivalent instead - and i did say not rockets in that point. Besides when i first said rockets i was being facitous.
Like i aready said in this post
the Car is the modern equivalent of horse+Carriage

Also, it might not be tactically feasible to deploy a subspace tug (a ship assigned to tow). There could be heavy combat conditions, meaning a support ship like that couldnt be sent in and survive and the destroyer's only chance relys on it limping back home and it's fighter surport.

P.S. Im sorry about the "hopping", "mad" and "mad2"s i was just abit stressed out the time. Im not looking to make enemies either.
P.P.S. The points i have made are my opiniona. Everyone is free to agree or disagree with them as they please.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2008, 11:26:24 am by terran_emperor »
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Offline castor

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Re: Is the GTVA pinned to subspace?
I think :v: just had to select between these two:
1) realistic speeds (fast) => boring dogfights
2) unrealistic speeds (slow) => fun dogfights

And chose 2), not caring a flying **** about the inconsistencies it creates ;) The right choice, IMO.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Is the GTVA pinned to subspace?
Snail
Did you read point 3?
Prehaps I should have said 24th Centuary equivalent instead - and i did say not rockets in that point. Besides when i first said rockets i was being facitous.

My points are still valid, particularly the last one and the first two.

(in case you have forgotten what I said.)

  • We have never seen a single ship use rockets. (!!)
  • We have never heard of any mention of this happening (!!)
  • They can warp in another ship to tow them away
  • If you could use these rockets then they would use them during combat
  • Considering it in-universe, they would already move extremely fast, and there is no need for these retro (as in 1960s) rockets.
  • Assuming that you cannot simply jump in near to a node, why don't convoy ships just use their rockets to approach them at high speed?

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Is the GTVA pinned to subspace?
Snail, I think what terran_emperor is trying to say is that in the Freespace Universe (NOT freepace game) the Ion drive,s fusion driver or whatever standard engines ship use are way faster than they are in-game.

Have you tried playing the game with vastly increased ship speeds? It's unplayable..and it make big ships look smaller and less significant.

Terran_Emperors point is valid, as no matter what happens to the subspace drive, the ship will have the normal drives to fall back to.

The speed in FS (the game) is an abstraction, modified for gameplay purposes...like hit points.. or did you ever read a Forgotten Realm novel where a charachter got stabbed 4 times with a greatsword and continued in his merry way?
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Offline Snail

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Re: Is the GTVA pinned to subspace?
Well what I thought terran_emperor was saying is that ships have backup super-high velocity engines in case their subspace drives are disabled.

 

Offline terran_emperor

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Re: Is the GTVA pinned to subspace?
Hallelujah. Finally someone gets what ive been saying all along. Maybe i could have phased it better. but it is nice  still the same


Snail
I was never trying to say that.
I never ment that they would have ships that travel a say half Lightspeed.
I never ment that a GTD ORion could get home from Mars to Earth in hours.
I meant that was that the ship travels fast enough in normal space that (if it was necessary) the trip could be done in months instead of years

The point ive been trying to make is this

For intersystem travel, the GTVA is 100% dependant on subspace - like i said millenia long missions are stupid

For Intrasystem travel, while Subspace is the prefered method of travel, they are not 100% dependant on it. maybe about 80-85% but not 100%
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Offline Snail

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Re: Is the GTVA pinned to subspace?
I meant that was that the ship travels fast enough in normal space that (if it was necessary) the trip could be done in months instead of years

My points still valid.

 

Offline terran_emperor

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Re: Is the GTVA pinned to subspace?
Lookwe all have valid points. im not going to agrue this any more. Lets just each stick to our own interpretation of the FS Universe. and not come to blows about it
e = m csarged - Relativity according to Sarge [Red vs Blue]

TRUE SHIVAN

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"I really wasn't expecting this much losership"


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Offline Snail

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Re: Is the GTVA pinned to subspace?
Then that makes this thread pointless.

 

Offline terran_emperor

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Re: Is the GTVA pinned to subspace?
Well. sure we can descuss them...just not look to kill each other over differences of opinion. There're too much of that in the world as it is.
What i have tried to say is my inturpretation of the FS universe.

Now I know that my views will never be the same as yours. and that you may not agree with me.
I could see where you are comming from...though.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2008, 12:30:29 pm by terran_emperor »
e = m csarged - Relativity according to Sarge [Red vs Blue]

TRUE SHIVAN

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"I really wasn't expecting this much losership"


"Only one thing is impossible for a Vorlon to understand: How to change the IRQ setting in any DOS computer."

HLP Brit