[jdjtcagle]

95% of threads in the General Freespace area are based on theory, conjecture and interpretation of facts

It's why I like it!

Good for making missions too...

[Flipside]

Ah, I understand it better then.

Are you talking about how compounds 'self-assemble'? This is being researched for nanomachines, protein folding, etc.

Yep, I seem to recall some research recently that made nano-wires that would actively seek out a particular chemical 'key', and each strand of the wire could be grown in such a way as it sought a different key from it's neighbours. Something like that could create massive reductions in the size production speed and costs of some technologies.

[TrashMan]

So, to revise the word 'organic'. If you shot an object made of polyester, would you expect to see blood and organs flying around? After all, polyester is an organic compound.

Organic (as used in sci-fi) - almost living ships, made out of cells and stuff

Carbon tubes, nano-materials, super-alloys - NOT organic. Calling something organic just cause it has some carbon in it is silly.

[Jeff Vader]

Yeah. Chemistry, among the rest of natural sciences, is silly.

[jdjtcagle]

Spider SILK!

[Flipside]

Carbon tubes, nano-materials, super-alloys - NOT organic. Calling something organic just cause it has some carbon in it is silly.

That's what Organic Chemistry is. It's the study of materials that use mostly Carbon and Hydrogen in their molecular structure.

[TrashMan]

I know what it is - I'm saying we call it organic simply because water and carbon are the biggest construction blocks of our bodies.
Hell, we have iron in our blood. Shall we call iron a organic material?

Calling it organic is downright stupid. It's an element just as every other in the periodic table.

[Flipside]

Because Iron has no more or less to do with us being alive than Carbon or Hydrogen do? Or maybe because organic molecules are, by definition not an element, whereas Iron is? There are, in fact, quite a number of organic compounds that contain metal, the most famous being enzymes. When they are bonded with Carbon and Hydrogen in the right way, they are organic compounds.

[Snail]

Having not read any of the thread, I have to say that IMO, the Shivans are not really "organic". I find the whole "growth" lines theory complete rubbish myself. What I think is that Shivan ships are "grown", but they are not really organic. They're like the waste product to some reaction that makes the Shivans all their energy. Since they're not assembled, but grown, they can be created much faster. Now I know that TrashMan is going to say "BAH THATS CUMPLEET RUBBISUH GO AWEY SNEYLE," but I'll believe what I believe.

[TrashMan]

No, I wouldn't say that.

Carbon tubes can be indeed "grown" but they consist of only 1 element.
The story is similar with practicely all new nano-materials.

A slab of carbon-based armor is no different than metallic armor when it comes to it's "organic-ness"

[Asuko]

You really are a stubborn arse, aren't you? It's been, what?, 4 pages already?

Ah, I understand it better then.

Are you talking about how compounds 'self-assemble'? This is being researched for nanomachines, protein folding, etc.

Yep, I seem to recall some research recently that made nano-wires that would actively seek out a particular chemical 'key', and each strand of the wire could be grown in such a way as it sought a different key from it's neighbours. Something like that could create massive reductions in the size production speed and costs of some technologies.

I wonder how it could work in especially large scale production. Cars that self-assemble sounds nice but hmm, ships are another sort altogether. Management of the self-assemblers (i.e. nanomachines?) would be hell.

[Flipside]

I suppose one way would be to have several 'propagators' around the ship that hold cultures for the requirement of that particular part of the ship, so, for example, growing (or repairing) the wiring for the scanners would only require triggering a single unit, which would regrow any broken strands, probably using some kind of magnetic or molecular identifiers that the newly grown strands would seek out, that way, every wire would automatically connect the its corresponding connection.

@Trashman - They've made Nanotubes out of Tungsten Suphide as well, ironically enough, they are commonly called 'Inorganic Nanotubes'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inorganic_nanotube

[Flipside]

Sorry for the double post, but I wanted to clarify on Organic and how it differs from Bioscience.

The whole reason that Carbon forms the basis of Organic Chemistry is nothing to do with the fact that it is, after H and O, the third most common element in most life forms, and much more to do with the fact it is tetravalent, which allows it to form a multitude of different molecules, including polymers and some of the long chain molecules which, whilst not alive, were what formed the building blocks that life is based on.

Organic Chemistry isn't about living creatures, Biochemistry is for that, it's about studying the properties of this somewhat unique element and it's ability to form Organic Compounds, yes, they are the building blocks of life, they are also the building blocks of Action Man, Your computer Keyboard, and Poly-tetra-floroethylene  wire sheathing. They're pretty flexible things, as it were.

Consider the alotropes of Carbon, you can get anything from diamond, an incredibly hard transparent material to graphite, an incredibly soft opaque one and that will begin to give you an idea into the vast range of materials you can get from mucking around with Carbon.

[Woolie Wool]

I strongly disagree with the idea of the Vasudans or the Shivans using "organic" vessels. First of all, organic structures are invariably extremely fragile compared to true armor plating.

No they wouldn't be.  Organic compounds are far more resilient than metals in most environments, much cheaper to produce, and much more easily repaired.  Why do you think we use plastic for so much? =)

There's a reason why tanks aren't armored with plastic. Furthermore, plastic is "organic" in terms of having carbon, but plastic is not alive and there are no plastic cells.

Actually, organic compounds are used in some of the most effective armour on the planet, admittedly, they are far more designed around absorbing impact damage than friction or heat damage, but the thing about Carbon-based molecules is that you can, with some work, give them properties not too dissimilar to Ceramics. It's all a question of aligning stuff properly within the molecule.

Yes, but can this stuff be integrated with and produced by cells? People here are positing that Shivan ships aren't just "organic" in the carbon sense, but biological.

How then, did the GTA and PVN capture shield, sensor and other equipment, and ship parts, in FS1?

Also, when the Dragon and Mara fighters are captured and used in both FS1 and FS2, it makes no mention of any kind of organic nature to them. 

Not only that, but the Dragon and Mara actually look mechanical and constructed. The Mara has lots of sharp angles and flat or regularly curved surfaces, and there's a very un-biological regularity to its features.

Besides, mechanical/drytech components are not necessarily boxy like Terran ships--one look at any car produced in the last 15 years will show that.

[Flipside]

@Woolie

That's why I'm careful about distinguishing between BioTech and Organic Tech, an awful lot of people seem to think they are the same thing

Actually, I seem to recall that ERA, or Explosive Reactive Armour is based on a superfluid organic compound, but yeah, metal is preferred, as much for it's malleability as its' reassuring thickness.

[Woolie Wool]

Actually, I seem to recall that ERA, or Explosive Reactive Armour is based on a superfluid organic compound.

Yes, but it is not biological, which is the essence of the ludicrous "grown ships" notion. The Shivan ships may well be made of carbon-bearing materials, but they are not alive!

[Flipside]

Heh, I was editing my last post as you typed

Yup, my position is that they aren't 'living' ships, but they make a lot of use of 'Organic' techniques, maybe the armour is 'grown' to coat a metallic superstructure, maybe the wiring is grown inside that, it's all complete conjecture anyway, but it's fun to talk about For all we know, that might be exactly how they make the Terran vessels, after all, there's no law that says organic stuff has to look like something out of an Escher drawing.

'Living' as in reacting to external stimuli with some degree of self awareness is another matter entirely.

[Asuko]

Woolie, look into my eyes . . . You will see the future . . . And you will realize that the Shivans have the technology . . . They can rebuild themselves . . . Better than they were before . . . Better, stronger, faster.

 

[Woolie Wool]

Woolie, look into my eyes . . . You will see the future . . . And you will realize that the Shivans have the technology . . . They can rebuild themselves . . . Better than they were before . . . Better, stronger, faster.

 

And there's no reason they can't do this with non-biological tech as opposed to slow-growing, fragile biological structures?

[Asuko]

Biological or organic structures?