[TrashMan]

Sorry but I don't agree with that statement - scripture says otherwise Trashman. 

Even better. Life would be very dull if everyone agreed.

Bloody hell, i'm not a Christian by any means, but even i'm insulted by that kind of hand-waving ignorance towards the core philosophies of Christianity. By drawing a distinction between lying and murder, you're doing exactly what Jesus is supposed to have argued against in his 'let he who is without sin...' spiel, and yet you have the gall to call yourself a Christian.

Fiddlesticks. I'm well aware of the core philosophy of Christianity. And I'm willing to forgive and give a dozen second chances...but up to a point.
Even Jesus stressed the importance of children.
A man who who molested and killed a dozen children? Sorry, thats way above my tolerance treshold. Burn him. Kill him.

Alltough when I think about it, when you suffer in your life you get extra points for it in the afterlife. So by killing a murder, am I actually helping him get a lesser sentence up there? Heck, I don't want that. Letting him live might be better..unless life in prison gets you more points than just being murdered.
Hmm....an interesting dillema.

[NGTM-1R]

And there isn't a country in the world that doesn't still reserve the right to execute those whose crimes could potentionally need an accountant for keeping track of all the bodies.

Every country that outlaws capital punishment? Which is like half the globe it seems.

Not so. All those European nations that have outlawed capital punishment still have laws on the books for execution in treason and espionage cases during wartime. The conflicting laws have never come to a test case, and probably won't unless there's still another Act to play in the Great European Civil War, but they're not quite willing to part with their ability to use the ultimate sanction in the ultimate of dire circumstances.



And come on people, even Jesus was allowed to get all Old Testament on folks once.

[redsniper]

Alltough when I think about it, when you suffer in your life you get extra points for it in the afterlife. So by killing a murder, am I actually helping him get a lesser sentence up there? Heck, I don't want that. Letting him live might be better..unless life in prison gets you more points than just being murdered.
Hmm....an interesting dillema.

It's not about getting the highest score...

[karajorma]

Not so. All those European nations that have outlawed capital punishment still have laws on the books for execution in treason and espionage cases during wartime. The conflicting laws have never come to a test case, and probably won't unless there's still another Act to play in the Great European Civil War, but they're not quite willing to part with their ability to use the ultimate sanction in the ultimate of dire circumstances.

Incorrect. The 13th protocol of the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms prohibits the death penalty under all circumstances in the UK. The UK actually abolished the penalty in 1998. That protocol prevents the reintroduction in any of the member States of the Council of Europe.

[G0atmaster]

Disclaimer: This part of this post is directed specifically at Trashman.

I guess that "Let he who is without sin..." stuff applies to other people then Trashman?

No one is without sin. But there are is a difference. The worst thing I did in my life is...erm.. hmmmm... lemme think...lie?
Compared to a serial child molestor or killer? You're dam right I can judge him...here on earth.
I'll leave the afterlife for God to settle.

Buddy, you are so way off-base here... That is absolutely wrong.  So completely against Scripture...  Oh my gosh, I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with most of the overall theme of Mefustae's last post.  DANG that's saying something!

You want a real-world example?  Paul.  He was a Pharisee that dragged early Christians out of their homes and had them publicly executed just for being Christians.  He oversaw the stonings of hundreds of people.  He was a mass murderer.

David, the "man after God's own heart" was an adulterer and a murderer.  He sent a soldier in his army on a suicide mission so that he could sleep with the man's wife.  You can't tell me that's not messed up.

And look what God did with them.  One wrote most of the Psalms, and was the greatest king of Israel.  The other wrote over half of the New Testament after being confronted by Christ Himself and shown the error of his ways.

Would you dare say you're a better Christian than Paul, or a more righteous man than David?

Sorry but I don't agree with that statement - scripture says otherwise Trashman. 

Even better. Life would be very dull if everyone agreed.

But to disagree with God is like a stream rising above its source.  Good luck arguing with Scripture.

Bloody hell, i'm not a Christian by any means, but even i'm insulted by that kind of hand-waving ignorance towards the core philosophies of Christianity. By drawing a distinction between lying and murder, you're doing exactly what Jesus is supposed to have argued against in his 'let he who is without sin...' spiel, and yet you have the gall to call yourself a Christian.

Fiddlesticks. I'm well aware of the core philosophy of Christianity. And I'm willing to forgive and give a dozen second chances...but up to a point.
Even Jesus stressed the importance of children.
A man who who molested and killed a dozen children? Sorry, thats way above my tolerance treshold. Burn him. Kill him.

Here's what Jesus had to say to a man who was willing to forgive "up to a point":

  Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"

 Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

Christ clearly pushes the bounds of forgiveness.  If you place boundaries on your willingness to forgive, Christ warns, so will God. 

Alltough when I think about it, when you suffer in your life you get extra points for it in the afterlife. So by killing a murder, am I actually helping him get a lesser sentence up there? Heck, I don't want that. Letting him live might be better..unless life in prison gets you more points than just being murdered.
Hmm....an interesting dillema.

That is so disgustingly unbiblical and un-Christlike I question whether you know ANYTHING of forgiveness...

Christ died so murderers and rapists and child molesters and drunkards and homosexuals and adulterers and thieves could find grace and forgiveness.  Not so you could condemn them with your twisted sense of "justice."  Go read the New Testament.  Particularly John 3:17.  I find myself disgusted with your ignorance of Christ's sacrifice, it's purpose, and significance.

Normally I would do this in private.  But I can't let such a misrepresentation go undenounced.

[Polpolion]

Sorry but I don't agree with that statement - scripture says otherwise Trashman. 

Even better. Life would be very dull if everyone agreed.

Bloody hell, i'm not a Christian by any means, but even i'm insulted by that kind of hand-waving ignorance towards the core philosophies of Christianity. By drawing a distinction between lying and murder, you're doing exactly what Jesus is supposed to have argued against in his 'let he who is without sin...' spiel, and yet you have the gall to call yourself a Christian.

Fiddlesticks. I'm well aware of the core philosophy of Christianity. And I'm willing to forgive and give a dozen second chances...but up to a point.
Even Jesus stressed the importance of children.
A man who who molested and killed a dozen children? Sorry, thats way above my tolerance treshold. Burn him. Kill him.

Alltough when I think about it, when you suffer in your life you get extra points for it in the afterlife. So by killing a murder, am I actually helping him get a lesser sentence up there? Heck, I don't want that. Letting him live might be better..unless life in prison gets you more points than just being murdered.
Hmm....an interesting dillema.

You just broke my logical fallacy detector. Thanks a lot.

[karajorma]

That is so disgustingly unbiblical and un-Christlike I question whether you know ANYTHING of forgiveness...

It appears as if Jesus only died for the sins of mankind that Trashman wanted him to die for. He should be able to pick and choose which sins people can live long enough to possibly repent for.

[G0atmaster]

That's the problem with a doctrine that has you trying to reach up to God.  That's the real defining line between what I believe and pretty much all the other religions of the world.

I've acknowledged I'm at a loss to "make it," as it were, under my own power.  God's reached down to us, ALL of us, rather than having us trying to climb a ladder to get to God.  That climb is impossible for us to make.  In that way, I'm no better than a serial killer.  And Christ gave me a clean slate in the same way He gave Paul a clean slate. 

Time does not diminish sin.  Christ does.  I believe in giving people as much time as possible for Christ to work in them.  Thus, no death penalty.

No one can buy their way into Heaven.  No amount of points will get you to the bonus round.  That price has been paid for all of us already.

[Mefustae]

That is so disgustingly unbiblical and un-Christlike I question whether you know ANYTHING of forgiveness...

Christ died so murderers and rapists and child molesters and drunkards and homosexuals and adulterers and thieves could find grace and forgiveness.  Not so you could condemn them with your twisted sense of "justice."  Go read the New Testament.  Particularly John 3:17.  I find myself disgusted with your ignorance of Christ's sacrifice, it's purpose, and significance.

Normally I would do this in private.  But I can't let such a misrepresentation go undenounced.

Aww, G0atmaster, you were doing so well. I was totally agreeing with you, truly seeing you as a credit to the board... right up until you decided to mix homosexuality in with child molestation and murderers. I mean come on. You're a conservative lad, I get that, but now you're just trying to start some ****.

[G0atmaster]

In that grouping, I also include guys that watch porn, girls that watch porn, people that do things with each other that they shouldn't, druggies, slanderers, politicians, lawyers, drug lords, gang leaders, gang members, upper, middle, and lower-class people, psychos, evil dictators, gamers, divorcees, programmers, lepers, world conquerors, Strongbad, the Master Chief, Chuck Norris, the folks at Blizzard Entertainment, and just about every other member of the Human Race.

[Mefustae]

In that grouping, I also include guys that watch porn, girls that watch porn, people that do things with each other that they shouldn't, druggies, slanderers, politicians, lawyers, drug lords, gang leaders, gang members, upper, middle, and lower-class people, psychos, evil dictators, gamers, divorcees, programmers, lepers, world conquerors, Strongbad, the Master Chief, Chuck Norris, the folks at Blizzard Entertainment, and just about every other member of the Human Race.

Sure, mate. Whatever you say.

[G0atmaster]

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..."

"As it is written: There is no one righteous.  No, not even one."

"For the wages of Sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord."

[karajorma]

That is so disgustingly unbiblical and un-Christlike I question whether you know ANYTHING of forgiveness...

Christ died so murderers and rapists and child molesters and drunkards and homosexuals and adulterers and thieves could find grace and forgiveness.  Not so you could condemn them with your twisted sense of "justice."  Go read the New Testament.  Particularly John 3:17.  I find myself disgusted with your ignorance of Christ's sacrifice, it's purpose, and significance.

Normally I would do this in private.  But I can't let such a misrepresentation go undenounced.

Aww, G0atmaster, you were doing so well. I was totally agreeing with you, truly seeing you as a credit to the board... right up until you decided to mix homosexuality in with child molestation and murderers. I mean come on. You're a conservative lad, I get that, but now you're just trying to start some ****.

Actually he makes a fair point. Some Christians really do need to be reminded that whether or not their religion finds homosexuality distasteful it's God's job to deal with them. Going around beating up homosexuals etc isn't righteous. It's arrogating God's duty of judging people to yourself.

But anyway let's not drag this off-topic about making it about Christian attitudes to homosexuality. I'd rather see if we can get somewhere with pointing out how capital punishment is unchristian.

[Mefustae]

Actually he makes a fair point. Some Christians really do need to be reminded that whether or not their religion finds homosexuality distasteful it's God's job to deal with them. Going around beating up homosexuals etc isn't righteous. It's arrogating God's duty of judging people to yourself.

But anyway let's not drag this off-topic about making it about Christian attitudes to homosexuality. I'd rather see if we can get somewhere with pointing out how capital punishment is unchristian.

Okay, i'll agree with you there. Now, let's get this topic back on track.

Regarding Christians for the death penalty, let me quote some of my scripture:

...There was an execution in California and there were a lot of Christians out front supporting the death penalty, and a lot of people found that ironic, particularly people who, y'know, know the words of Christ. Yeah, I didn't know "Thou shalt not kill" had a footnote. But apparently it's "Thou shalt not kill* Unless you really want to" [...] I didn't find that ironic at all, Christians for the death penalty, because after all; if it weren't for capital punishment, y'know, we'd have no Easter."

[TrashMan]

Buddy, you are so way off-base here... That is absolutely wrong.  So completely against Scripture...  Oh my gosh, I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with most of the overall theme of Mefustae's last post.  DANG that's saying something!

Get this - the scripture sez do not kill. Ever. Under no circumstances. Jesus didn't strike against those who killed and tortured him.
Therefore, to follow the scripture to the letter, you shouldn't defend yourself when someone tries to kill you. Because even killing in self-defense is still killing.
Now, I'm not prepared to got that far.

Maybe there's a better solution. Drop them on some far off island and let them fend for themselves (with a death penalty if they leave the island). There - they are not dead and are far away.
I'm sorry, but I just don't consider a father having to pay to keep the man who killed his daughter alive, secure and well fed justice. Not by a longshot.
At the end of the day the details of how it is setteled do not matter to me - as long as the solution is better than the current one.

Would you dare say you're a better Christian than Paul, or a more righteous man than David?

Maybe.. I'm not keeping score, alltough I haven't killed or endulged in adultery. That's got to count for something.

Christ clearly pushes the bounds of forgiveness.  If you place boundaries on your willingness to forgive, Christ warns, so will God.

I'm not God or Christ.
When I hear someone molested, raped and killed children for years and shows no remorse at all... I simply can't forgive that. It's too much for me. Alltough I hope God can.
If God judges me by my own standards I think I should be o.k. tough. Guess we'll see.

[jdjtcagle]

guys I know this sounds crazy - but religious doctrine is a completely different topic that I believe has a place for it's own thread, I would be happy to get involved w/out taking away from this thread on capital punishment.  Can the mods split the thread?

[TrashMan]

Don't get me wrong here - as a general rule I'm against death penalty.

But exceptions prove the rule, as the old saying goes. I honestly think some are more then worthy of that exception. Not to say that it HAS to be like that - I just consider it better than life in prison (actually, more merciful in a way). Wish there was some middle ground, some better solution. There probably is.

[karajorma]

Aren't you the same person who was talking about executing politicians for corruption only a couple of days ago?

[TrashMan]

Like I said - exceptions prove the rule. And actually I'd prefer a public whipping + jail time. Or that thing they had in the middle ages - when they restrained you on the public square and people threw rotten fruit at ya.

[Colonol Dekker]

Stocks? You mean then right? A whipping in public square like johnny rico!