[Kosh]

ARVN? What does that mean?


EDIT: speaking of corruption in the MI complex, I just ran across something interesting:


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23395826/

WASHINGTON - The Army is ordering a major overhaul of the way it buys supplies for troops in combat zones as the number of criminal investigations into wartime contract fraud nears triple figures.

[Mustang19]

ARVN = Army of the Republic of Vietnam, eg South Vietnamese army.

Remember that the Iraqi army relies heavily on the Americans for logistical support and training, so having a common weapon (the M-16) does help.

[TrashMan]

Somewhere in the neighborhood of $400 for a new AK-100 series and maybe $800 for an M-4. I'm basically pulling numbers out of my ass, but that's ballpark figures. Multiply that by 100,000 and it's still peanuts to the US military-industrial complex, who are used to using $100 bills as toilet paper (F-22, I'm looking at you). It's more a matter of prestige than money.

I'm getting a job in one of those companies. I could use some of that toilet paper

[Flaser]

Some of my thoughts:
-The AK series rifles are a lot more forgiving since they have a lot lower tolerances (and play) on their parts. This makes them cheap (to build and maintain), reliable and quite mediocre as far as accuracy goes.
-The AK series rifles are good for a mass army with low quality training, but a professional army would opt for a rifle with better accuracy with probably burst fire option.
-It is a good rifle for suppression fire and flank maneuvers. If you have a huge army, you can take the casualties and still overwhelm the enemy.

-The M-16 and its other Colt brothers are a mature technology, and they have excellent ergonomics and high accuracy. For a trained gunman who takes care of his rifle it is a better rifle. If only came in a higher caliber....

-There is a reason why many countries still use the AK-47 and new AK-100 series rifles with the "old" 7.62 ammunition. It has very good penetration, making the rifle better at urban fighting than the M-16.

I'm surprised no one mentioned the Galil rifle family: made by Israel, a close (if not closest) US ally. It marries the enduring and forgiving qualities of the AK series with modern materials and better accuracy.
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as23-e.htm

To me that seems like the ideal rifle. You have one guess, why it was passed in favor of the M-16.

[Woolie Wool]

To me that seems like the ideal rifle. You have one guess, why it was passed in favor of the M-16.

I'd love to see the looks on the Iraqis' faces if you suggested that they buy weapons from Israel.

[Mika]

I could have sworn that the Israeli rifle was a modification to the good-old-RK62.

And, it turns out that it indeed is.

Mika

[NGTM-1R]

I never realised the reconstruction of Iraq's armed forces was that widespread. Got any links handy you can throw at us?

Not that I know of, sorry. It was mentioned in this month's issue of Proceedings (just in time for the International Navies issue they do every year), and I've heard it from people who work for the Navy Department in Space and Naval Warfare Systems Command.

It's true the M-16 is nearing the end of it's useful lifespan, but AFAIK its replacement is already in the works for 2010 or so.

[Janos]

I could have sworn that the Israeli rifle was a modification to the good-old-RK62.

And, it turns out that it indeed is.

Mika

Which, in turn, is a modification of RK54 which, in turn, is pretty much a direct copy of... AK-47.

[Admiral_Stones]

oh wow, its like handing them toy guns


AK 47 is the best gun produced to date.

Lier! Nothing beats the SIG SG 550 Swiss Army Assault Rifle!
910 m/s muzzle speed, 1700 Joule muzzle energy, three fire modes, 5.6 mm rounds and being the most accurate assault rifle in the darn world can only help.

[Mefustae]

Lier! Nothing beats the SIG SG 550 Swiss Army Assault Rifle!

I'm sorry, but I can't take an army seriously when it has a corkscrew on its knife.

"Men, I understand that many of you have never opened a Chardonnay under enemy fire, but disipline and strength will see you through!"

[Mika]

Which, in turn, is a modification of RK54 which, in turn, is pretty much a direct copy of... AK-47.

I thought RK54 is AK47.

My opinion is that people shouldn't discuss about military weapons if they have never served. I was about to write something that I will send a cookie to anyone who first quotes Wikipedia here (since Wikipedia knows it all of course), but it turns out I'm already late.

For the humor side, read the history and what kind of "analyses" were performed before M-16 was developed from Wikipedia. Some of those conclusions remind me of the witch trials...

Other than that, this thread should be pretty much locked if you ask me. The original topic seems to be derailed and this will only continue to "my dad, your dad" debate.

Iraq wants to buy M16s to replace AK47s? It's their call, unless US is pressuring the Iraqi government to go for that decision (which I wouldn't find too hard to believe either). In anycase, the new rifles are quite equal in performance, some of them better than the others in other perspectives and vice versa. Life is life, deal with it and all that sort of things.

Mika

[Janos]

Which, in turn, is a modification of RK54 which, in turn, is pretty much a direct copy of... AK-47.

I thought RK54 is AK47.

My opinion is that people shouldn't discuss about military weapons if they have never served. I was about to write something that I will send a cookie to anyone who first quotes Wikipedia here (since Wikipedia knows it all of course), but it turns out I'm already late.

For the humor side, read the history and what kind of "analyses" were performed before M-16 was developed from Wikipedia. Some of those conclusions remind me of the witch trials...

Other than that, this thread should be pretty much locked if you ask me. The original topic seems to be derailed and this will only continue to "my dad, your dad" debate.

Iraq wants to buy M16s to replace AK47s? It's their call, unless US is pressuring the Iraqi government to go for that decision (which I wouldn't find too hard to believe either). In anycase, the new rifles are quite equal in performance, some of them better than the others in other perspectives and vice versa. Life is life, deal with it and all that sort of things.

Mika

You know quite well that serving does not really give one an idea just how a weapon works or how it compares to other similar designs, at least if you've served in FDF. Rifles are generally movingly similar in their specs.

But that's all besides the point, because what was originally discussed here were not the boring technical specs of rifles, but the politics of weaponry - as you pointed out.

[karajorma]

I find it amusing that everyone ignored this bit.

A July 2007 Government Accountability Office report concluded that as many as 190,000 weapons delivered to the Iraqi army were not accounted for and could've wound up in terrorist caches.

[S-99]

I find it amusing that everyone ignored this bit.

A July 2007 Government Accountability Office report concluded that as many as 190,000 weapons delivered to the Iraqi army were not accounted for and could've wound up in terrorist caches.

If the iraqi army ever finds these weapon caches, then free m16's for all in the army.

[Mika]

You know quite well that serving does not really give one an idea just how a weapon works or how it compares to other similar designs, at least if you've served in FDF. Rifles are generally movingly similar in their specs.

???

But regarding business driven by war, it has always been so. Not necessarily for the both sides. The only difference is that now honor is much more valued, while before all the soldiers got their share of the loot. Nowadays soldiers can be rewarded with a medal, whose actual monetary value is small - and they are happy about it.

Mika

[Mefustae]

Nowadays soldiers can be rewarded with a medal, whose actual monetary value is small - and they are happy about it.

No, modern armies still work as mercenaries. Simple hired killers. Try seeing how well a volunteer army would work when they're not getting paid.

Obviously, conscription-based and reactionary armies - ie. guerrilla armies in the face of invasion - work under different principles, but we're only talking about modern, western armies here.

[Nuclear1]

Small monetary value?

I get paid 1600/month, full medical/dental, don't pay a cent for food/lodging, and will have so many bonus pays coming it's not even funny.

[Flaser]

Small monetary value?

I get paid 1600/month, full medical/dental, don't pay a cent for food/lodging, and will have so many bonus pays coming it's not even funny.

Some people wonder why a lot citizens in Hungary fondly reminiscence about the last years of communism: they had free full medical/dental was given free lodging, food was cheap and plentiful and you could even buy a couple of luxuries if you were actually willing to work.

[Mika]

Small monetary value?

I get paid 1600/month, full medical/dental, don't pay a cent for food/lodging, and will have so many bonus pays coming it's not even funny.

Yes, that is what I consider small monetary value. But this is only my opinion.

Mika

[Woolie Wool]

Nowadays soldiers can be rewarded with a medal, whose actual monetary value is small - and they are happy about it.

No, modern armies still work as mercenaries. Simple hired killers. Try seeing how well a volunteer army would work when they're not getting paid.

Obviously, conscription-based and reactionary armies - ie. guerrilla armies in the face of invasion - work under different principles, but we're only talking about modern, western armies here.

The standards of training, honor, and discipline for professional modern armies are far, far higher than mercenary groups like Blackwater. There are elements of loyalty, pride, and the fact that you actually represent the nation you're fighting for that make real soldiers far more effective and reliable than true mercenaries. A mercenary will fight for whomever gives him a fat contract. A soldier is bound to his nation and its objectives. A soldier is also accountable to his nation and people--Lynndie England, one of the Abu Ghraib scumbags, spent almost two years in prison and is facing a dishonorable discharge on top of her felony conviction that will pretty much **** up her life forever. Another, Charles Graner, got 10 years.

I wouldn't be surprised if the "contractors" in Iraq committed five times the human rights violations per capita than American soldiers (and no army substituted in the US Army's place would have zero human rights violations, to imagine otherwise is fantasy). I dislike mercenary groups intensely and think the US should expel them from Iraq.