Author Topic: Ka-ching! Military-Industrial Complex strikes again  (Read 11261 times)

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Offline Mefustae

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Ka-ching! Military-Industrial Complex strikes again
The Iraqi Army has decided - entirely by their own volition with no outside influence, obviously - to make the switch from the AK-47 to the M-16 as their standard infantry rifle.

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,162878,00.html?wh=wh

Quote from: Article
In a move that could be the most enduring imprint of U.S. influence in the Arab world, American military officials in Baghdad have begun a crash program to outfit the entire Iraqi army with M-16 rifles.

The initiative marks a sharp break for a culture steeped in the traditions of the Soviet-era AK-47 Kalashnikov assault rifle, a symbol of revolutionary zeal and third-world simplicity that is ubiquitous among the militaries of the Middle East.

"We in the U.S. know that the M-16 is superior to the AK ... it's more durable," said Army Col. Stephen Scott, who's in charge of helping the Iraqi army get all the equipment it needs to outfit its forces.

"The Iraqis have embraced that ... and the fact that it is U.S. manufactured and supplied. They are very big on U.S.-produced [foreign military sales] materials," he said in an interview with military bloggers this month.

So far, the U.S. military has helped the Iraqi army purchase 43,000 rifles - a mix of full-stock M-16A2s and compact M-4 carbines. Another 50,000 rifles are currently on order, and the objective is to outfit the entire Iraqi army with 165,000 American rifles in a one-for-one replacement of the AK-47.

"Our goal is to give every Iraqi soldier an M-16A2 or an M-4," Scott said. "And as the Iraqi army grows, we will adjust."

Scott added the mass of AK-47s from various manufacturers floating through the Iraqi army's inventory could cause maintenance and reliability problems. Getting both U.S. and Iraqi forces on the same page when it comes to basic weaponry is part of the argument for M-16 outfitting.

"I'm also a fan of AKs," Scott said. "But keep in mind most of these AKs have been sitting around in bunkers or whatnot for 30 or 40 years [and] are in various stages of disrepair."

A variety of U.S. troops, including SEALs, Marines and Soldiers - and even civilian contractors - are training Iraqis on the M-16 and M-4 throughout the country. One civilian trainer told Military.com during a brief interview in Iraq that the Iraqi soldiers are a little behind the average American trooper when it comes to learning the various parts and breakdown of the M-16, but they're enthusiastic and quick learners on the range.

After seeing some of the firing range training himself, Scott added that he "asked the Iraqis how they liked the weapon and they said it was far superior, it was more accurate ... and more reliable."

"I think the transition is almost transparent from those older AKs," he said.

A system that registers each rifle with the individual who receives it using biometric data such as thumb prints and eye scans is meant to address concerns over U.S. weapons winding up in enemy hands. A July 2007 Government Accountability Office report concluded that as many as 190,000 weapons delivered to the Iraqi army were not accounted for and could've wound up in terrorist caches.

That's something Scott isn't going to allow on his watch.

"These Iraqi soldiers know that this weapon becomes part of their person," he said. "And they also know that they are responsible and accountable for that weapon."

And from the looks of it, Iraqi soldiers aren't willing to hand them over to the bad guys.

"Most of the soldiers think they will be just like the Americans, and that is making them very happy," said Capt. Rafaat Mejal Ahmed, the Iraqi 1st Division weapons and ammunition officer, in a Marine Corps release. "They think the modern technology will make them more powerful."
Safe to say, this is going to net Colt a profit in the millions, if not billions, all the while weakening the Iraqi Army in future engagements. If this isn't proof of the US Military-Industrial Complex pulling strings to make a killing (pun intended) from this war, I don't know what is.

 

Offline Hellstryker

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Re: Ka-ching! Military-Industrial Complex strikes again
I don't get it.. how would having superior rifles harm them.. sounds like a win win situation to me..  :wtf:

 

Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Ka-ching! Military-Industrial Complex strikes again
How is it sabotaging the Iraqi army, if I may ask? Other than the fact they're buying it from us, the Iraqis have nothing but to benefit from this. The M16A2's a better rifle, far more accurate, and is quite easier to maintain than the AK. It has one of the most simplistic learning curves of any weapon I have ever fired, meaning the Iraqis will be trained on it in no time.

But I guess the point wasn't that, but rather that an American company will benefit from this. Because hell, upgrading an army to better weaponry is on the same level as sending in Blackwater teams to shoot up the countryside. I almost forgot.
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Offline Unknown Target

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Re: Ka-ching! Military-Industrial Complex strikes again
If I'm not mistaken, aren't M-16s notorious for requiring constant cleaning, compared to the AK-47, which you can practically drop in mud, then pick it right up and shoot?

I mean, the M-16 is more accurate, but I thought it was pretty much certain that the AK-47 was easier to maintain/produce?

Oh, and Mefustae, seems like you're just trying to find another reason to hate America. So what if it's Colt's weapons - they really are better overall than AK's.

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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Re: Ka-ching! Military-Industrial Complex strikes again
No, I think he's commenting on how one cannot help but chuckle at the large contracts that were definitely not our motivation for the invasion of Iraq.

I also can't wait until years from now when the government of the new "free" Iraq is using weapons we sold them to commit new and exciting atrocities and everyone wonders how such a scenario could arise.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 11:18:32 pm by Ford Prefect »
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Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Ka-ching! Military-Industrial Complex strikes again
I can't quote costs per weapon for each, but I know from experience that all you really need to do to maintain an M16 in fighting shape is make sure the barrel is clear of dust and it'll work fine. It's not a bad idea to take the five minutes it takes to fully disassemble the M16 into pieces, give each piece a thorough cleaning, and reassemble whenever given the chance, but it can go two weeks or so without such a cleaning.

So long as you're not pouring sand down the barrel each day, then the weapon works fine.
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

 

Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Ka-ching! Military-Industrial Complex strikes again
I can't quote costs per weapon for each, but I know from experience that all you really need to do to maintain an M16 in fighting shape is make sure the barrel is clear of dust and it'll work fine. It's not a bad idea to take the five minutes it takes to fully disassemble the M16 into pieces, give each piece a thorough cleaning, and reassemble whenever given the chance, but it can go two weeks or so without such a cleaning.

So long as you're not pouring sand down the barrel each day, the weapon works fine.
Spoon - I stand in awe by your flawless fredding. Truely, never before have I witnessed such magnificant display of beamz.
Axem -  I don't know what I'll do with my life now. Maybe I'll become a Nun, or take up Macrame. But where ever I go... I will remember you!
Axem - Sorry to post again when I said I was leaving for good, but something was nagging me. I don't want to say it in a way that shames the campaign but I think we can all agree it is actually.. incomplete. It is missing... Voice Acting.
Quanto - I for one would love to lend my beautiful singing voice into this wholesome project.
Nuclear1 - I want a duet.
AndrewofDoom - Make it a trio!

 

Offline Shade

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Re: Ka-ching! Military-Industrial Complex strikes again
Quote
but it can go two weeks or so without such a cleaning
Just don't tell that to any recruits :p It absolutely must be cleaned twice every day or it will blow up in your hands!!
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: Ka-ching! Military-Industrial Complex strikes again
If I'm not mistaken, aren't M-16s notorious for requiring constant cleaning, compared to the AK-47, which you can practically drop in mud, then pick it right up and shoot?

I mean, the M-16 is more accurate, but I thought it was pretty much certain that the AK-47 was easier to maintain/produce?
Actually, the ease of production is somewhat misleading. While the AK is far, far simpler, it was designed with large, Soviet-esque production lines in mind, and isn't perfectly suited to smaller production facilities you would find in nations like Iraq. Moreover, while we're talking about the far more modern and less problematic M16A2 here, the AK-47 has always had the edge in reliability and durability in ****ty conditions, which is exactly where this army is going to be spending 99% of its time.

The fact of the matter is that the M16 is more expensive, less reliable given the conditions, and requires a complete retraining of their entire army to introduce. In essence, this entire move is based on publicity/propaganda and profiteering by the American military-industrial complex. This really is no different than all the other pocket-lining and money-grubbing we've seen in Iraq over the past 4 years, but it's kinda funny to see an Army colonel say the M16 is more durable than the AK.

Oh, and Mefustae, seems like you're just trying to find another reason to hate America. So what if it's Colt's weapons - they really are better overall than AK's.
I see it as blatant profiteering in a war-torn region. Defying logic and common sense in favour of substantial dollar value. That what I hate about America, whereas you're making it out as if i'd like to grab the nearest yank and grind his bones to make my bread...

...Although, I am kind of hungry... *gets wooden club*

 

Offline achtung

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Re: Ka-ching! Military-Industrial Complex strikes again
It's so funny when people start hating based on nationality.  I find it worse than racism.
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Offline Ford Prefect

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Re: Ka-ching! Military-Industrial Complex strikes again
I'm going to skip over the part where I pretend to care about demonstrating that no such thing is taking place in this discussion, and proceed directly to the academic question: Why exactly do you find that to be worse than racism?
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Offline Rictor

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Re: Ka-ching! Military-Industrial Complex strikes again
Damn, I kept wondering when this was coming; it seems unreasonable not to expect it. But I think the military-industrial complex has bigger fish to fry - a few years down the road, it wouldn't surprise me if those old Czech T-72s are replaced with M1A2s, Mi-17s with Blackhawks and so on. There's hardly any margin on small arms, especially when you're used to selling big-ticket projects to the US government.

Mind you, I don't necessarily consider this to be a bad thing. One's as good as the other, and probably about as cheap. I have no real love for the Russian government of their state arms corporations.

I see it as blatant profiteering in a war-torn region. Defying logic and common sense in favour of substantial dollar value. That what I hate about America, whereas you're making it out as if i'd like to grab the nearest yank and grind his bones to make my bread...
War-torn regions generally do not lack for weapons, especially rifles and such. If it wasn't Colt, it would be the Pakistanis or Russians or Iranians or Chinese or someone else. Or the good old black market. There hasn't been a war in history where those who wanted weapons couldn't get them from someplace.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2008, 01:59:33 am by Rictor »

 

Offline achtung

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Re: Ka-ching! Military-Industrial Complex strikes again
I'm going to skip over the part where I pretend to care about demonstrating that no such thing is taking place in this discussion, and proceed directly to the academic question: Why exactly do you find that to be worse than racism?

You're not even hating based on something real.  You're hating someone for being born on a certain plot of land.  That's even less credible than hating someone for the color of their skin.
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Offline Ford Prefect

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Re: Ka-ching! Military-Industrial Complex strikes again
Race is as discursive a phenomenon as national identity. Its basis doesn't make it any more "real"; they're both wrapped in impenetrable layers of arbitrary meaning.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Ka-ching! Military-Industrial Complex strikes again
The fact of the matter is that the M16 is more expensive, less reliable given the conditions, and requires a complete retraining of their entire army to introduce. In essence, this entire move is based on publicity/propaganda and profiteering by the American military-industrial complex. This really is no different than all the other pocket-lining and money-grubbing we've seen in Iraq over the past 4 years, but it's kinda funny to see an Army colonel say the M16 is more durable than the AK.

Given the age of most of the AKs probably in service with the Iraqis, and how much abuse they've seen already, giving them anything new would probably result in their having more durable weapons. The guns don't exist vacuum-packed, they've gone out and been used for ages now. And the AK's performance degrades much more rapidly. It will still fire long after and M16 has stopped, but as a practical matter, the M16 will be effective longer.
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Offline Mefustae

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Re: Ka-ching! Military-Industrial Complex strikes again
Given the age of most of the AKs probably in service with the Iraqis, and how much abuse they've seen already, giving them anything new would probably result in their having more durable weapons. The guns don't exist vacuum-packed, they've gone out and been used for ages now. And the AK's performance degrades much more rapidly. It will still fire long after and M16 has stopped, but as a practical matter, the M16 will be effective longer.
Ah, okay, you've got me there. Didn't quite think of it from that angle. As it stands, the US asking Russia (or anyone who makes knockoffs) for a few thousand AK-47s wouldn't really work politically.

 

Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Ka-ching! Military-Industrial Complex strikes again
American M16's more reliable and durable then the AK-47?? Hah. That is one of the most ridicolous things i have ever heard. Also the acuracy of the Ak-47 is much greater if you know how to shoot it. However the M-16's and the Ak-47 are designed with 2 different ideologies in mind. The ak-47 has its standard fire mode in fullautomatic. While the m-16 if i remember corectly has semi-automatic one-shot at a time tipe of fire.

The ak-47 is more suited for close range combat . Also the ak 47 can actualy puch through a brick wall while the m16 with its little bullets has a hard time getting trough anithing thinker then a standard wooden beam used for construction.

However as far as pick it up shoot it acuracy goes the m-16 wins hand down. However the fact that it has a a much smaller stopping power then the ak-47 and is generaly ore expensive to produce and requires constant manitenence makes it second best if not 3-rd best. And the ak-47 and its variants some of them improved versions with greater range acuracy etc. will continue to be the supreme weapons of choice.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Ka-ching! Military-Industrial Complex strikes again
I don't get it.. how would having superior rifles harm them.. sounds like a win win situation to me..  :wtf:

the last thing that country needs is MORE guns. :rolleyes:


EDIT: Speaking of which, comments on M-16 and AK-47 from anyone who hasn't used both rifles are meaningless. I feels like a garbage man trying to explain to me why open heart surgery is better than closed one.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2008, 06:24:48 am by TrashMan »
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Offline Ashrak

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Re: Ka-ching! Military-Industrial Complex strikes again
oh wow, its like handing them toy guns :D


AK 47 is the best gun produced to date.
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Offline S-99

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Re: Ka-ching! Military-Industrial Complex strikes again
American M16's more reliable and durable then the AK-47?? Hah. That is one of the most ridicolous things i have ever heard. Also the acuracy of the Ak-47 is much greater if you know how to shoot it. However the M-16's and the Ak-47 are designed with 2 different ideologies in mind. The ak-47 has its standard fire mode in fullautomatic. While the m-16 if i remember corectly has semi-automatic one-shot at a time tipe of fire.

The ak-47 is more suited for close range combat . Also the ak 47 can actualy puch through a brick wall while the m16 with its little bullets has a hard time getting trough anithing thinker then a standard wooden beam used for construction.

However as far as pick it up shoot it acuracy goes the m-16 wins hand down. However the fact that it has a a much smaller stopping power then the ak-47 and is generaly ore expensive to produce and requires constant manitenence makes it second best if not 3-rd best. And the ak-47 and its variants some of them improved versions with greater range acuracy etc. will continue to be the supreme weapons of choice.

M16 does have automatic fire. What are you smoking?  :pimp:
It's one of the best automatic guns in the world in use in over 50 countries worldwide. But, then again, comparing anything in the hlpbb forums it's very much so around here comparing **** to ****. Everyone will ignore real word reality in here anyway because the ak47 is **** as well as the m16 in this argument.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2008, 07:10:10 am by S-99 »
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