Author Topic: Will B5 become reality!?!  (Read 10540 times)

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Offline Dark RevenantX

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Nothing is impossible until it is proven to not work.

 

Offline IceyJones

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Yeah, this is what they said with the airplane, too.

jerk.....the airplane worked, because the physics said, that it WILL work, that it is possible.
with space travel it is a little bit different....you know....

or are you A QUACK?

 

Offline Ashrak

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
noone said anything about moving at the speed of light, thats too slow.


afaik theres nothing to prevent us from going to another dimention thats more compressed, driving at 10 kph and popping out a billion lightyears away from E)
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Thing is, from what I recall, the speed of light isn't even a particularly 'constant' constant It wobbles around all over the place near large gravity wells such as Jupiter or the Sun.

  
Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
my intension was really not to start a discussion about the physics and space travel in general. i just wanted to show, that there might be habitable planets around our nearest star system.....nothing more ;)

Wrong. Proxima Centauri is our nearest.
BTW, Gliese ftw. Apart from it's like 15 day year and sudden and strong bursts of gamma radiation, it's perfect.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Only for now, give it a few millennia and it will be Barnards star, and the odds of anything useful around that are pretty slim.

For some reason, I just thought of a really ancient game called 'Tau Ceti'.....

 

Offline IceyJones

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Wrong. Proxima Centauri is our nearest.
BTW, Gliese ftw. Apart from it's like 15 day year and sudden and strong bursts of gamma radiation, it's perfect.

when nutpicking, then right please....

alpha centauri is a SYSTEM of THREE stars:
- alpha centauri A
distance = 23 AU
- alpha centauri B
distance 13000 AU
- proxima centauri

i was NOT NAMING a single star, but called it SYSTEM.....

thanks ;)

 

Offline Roanoke

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
I've never understood (or been inclined to to look up) why does travelling at Light Speed entail breaking physics laws ? I seem to recall it envokes some time travel hijinks too ?


 

Offline IceyJones

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
it´s impossible because of E=mc2

it shows, that you need infinite energy in order to accelerate a mass to the speed of light......but nothing is infinite.....

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Trying to flyl at the speed of light, you're own mass would kill you LONG before you reached it...now, if you somehow managed to nullify your mass (handwavium) then flying at the speed of light might actually be possible.
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Offline Polpolion

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Yeah, this is what they said with the airplane, too.

jerk.....the airplane worked, because the physics said, that it WILL work, that it is possible.
with space travel it is a little bit different....you know....

or are you A QUACK?

No, it worked because the laws of nature said it would work. The laws of physics, which at that time said it wouldn't work, were still in WIP stage, as they are now.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Trying to flyl at the speed of light, you're own mass would kill you LONG before you reached it...now, if you somehow managed to nullify your mass (handwavium) then flying at the speed of light might actually be possible.


No it wouldn't. It's a common misconception that velocity increases (physical amount of) mass. It doesn't actually do that. Velocity increases momentum in a non-linear curve. The mass that affects gravity - on both co-ordinates, of the ship and "static" observer, will remain the same.

Kinetic mass is a mathematical tool to describe how the momentum increase isn't linear after all, but approaches infinity as the velocity approaches c. It's a way to model inertia, but it certainly does not mean that the physical amount of matter (mass) on the speeding object changes. In other words, it is used as substitution for more complex equation for relativistic inertia and energy,

p = mv and  E=mc^2

where m is not in fact the rest mass but "kinetic" mass. The rest mass of objects is used to calculate what the kinetic mass of an object would appear to be, from the formula



where m0 is of course the rest mass, v is the velocity relative to observer, and c is the speed of light in a vacuum.

After all, an observer on the fast-moving object's inertial co-ordinate system would measure the object's velocity as zero. And to that observer, the object's mass is exactly it's rest mass.

In fact, many lecturers of special relativity have actually ceased using the terms "rest mass" and "kinetic mass" because they are so very easy to mix up profoundly on a conceptual level, since even though the math is relatively (pun intended) simple and straightforward, the interpretations and implications are not... For example, it's still not quite clear to me if Lorentz-contraction of relative co-ordinates is an observation or a real phenomenon... and, indeed, what is the difference between observation and reality. After all, don't we define reality by observations? Even the concept of simultaneity in relativity is heavily connected to observations due to signal speed limit of c - which can be interpreted, in a way, so that what you see on the night sky is simultaneous to this co-ordinate system. Or you could interpret our time as global time and make the distance-time corrections to each star's relative time to us.

But I digress, again. Perhaps the best example that literally proves that mass doesn't increase as velocity increases are neutrinos. Them buggers have a small rest mass and they hurl through the universe originating from most nuclear reactions, and their velocity is very close to speed of light, but they do not collapse to singularities and eat up the whole universe, most obviously. :p


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Offline IceyJones

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
until today it is not 100% clear, that neutrinos even have a mass.....but if they have, its terrible small, which would allow a speed NEAR the vacuum light speed. but NO particle with a rest mass higher than "0" can reach lightspeed.....its impossible......

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
But even then, photons themselves seem to live in world somewhere between wave and particle, they actually obey certain laws that apply to both, gravity can bend light, which should be impossible unless it has mass, for example.

 

Offline IceyJones

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
right....photons don´t have a mass, but they have energy, wich corelates with a mass.....therefor they are also bound to the Geodesic of the spacetime and are redirected by a curved spacetime wich we find around EVERY mass.....even a photon has gravity....

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
That's only one of the discrepancies though, I'm not a Quantum physicist, obviously, probably someone like Herra could cover it better than I, but I do know there are still a lot of behaviours from a photon that haven't yet been explained, so I'm still not writing off the possibility that it is possible to have mass and travel at light speeds, though I'll accept the most likely cure is a 'shortcut' rather than going nose-first against Relativity.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!



That's exactly the formula I was looking for! ;)

One can see clearly in it why one can't go faster than light - the root can't be a negative number! Which means the (v/c)^2 can't be bigger than 1, which čeads to the conclusion that v < c
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Offline IceyJones

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
me neither, so we should leave this discussion to the more specialized peoples and institutes out there.
we all here can only argue with half knowledge......

nevertheless fact is, that science does not function with revolutions. it envolves, it grows on prooven theories......each new theory must be part of the new one. the new one has to describe also the old one....

means, accepted and PROVEN rules of physics cannot be broken, even if we find out everything i.e. about the duality of light, etc and so maybe someday a flaw to higher speeds than light. but also in future it only can be a way around this "speed"limit, we will never break through.....the only possibility i can imagine would be a re-routing through another dimension, but never a bending of spacetime (warp)....the energy consumption is too huge.....

 

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
One can see clearly in it why one can't go faster than light - the root can't be a negative number! Which means the (v/c)^2 can't be bigger than 1, which čeads to the conclusion that v < c
Problem with that is the minor detail that the function you were talking about is IIRC only defined if v belongs to {0, c}. So you can't prove anything with it above c because as far as we know the function does not exists in above c velocities...
As for the negative roots.. well there are complex numbers which do actually have other uses than just to annoy people in math lessons.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
until today it is not 100% clear, that neutrinos even have a mass.


Well, neutrino oscillation means almost certainly that they have a rest mass m>0.

Neutrino oscillation means that there are three types of neutrinos - electron's, myon's and tau's neutrinos - and they oscillate spontaneously into each other. Current observation hardware can only detect electron's neutrinos, which explains why we observe only 1/3rd of expected amount of neutrino flux coming from the Sun.

The fact that neutrinos can change from one state into another during their existence is proof that they experience time, unlike photons that are in a "locked" state dring their observed existence and cannot change during their journey from emission point to absorption point. For photons, the time it takes to get from A to B is zero.

Also, the relation between mass and velocity is pretty straightforward - objects that have rest mass m>0, all move at velocity v<c in relation to each other. Objects that have rest mass of exactly zero (m==0) move at exactly velocity v==c. Photons are the only known example of this category. Presumable, objects with negative rest mass (m<0) would move at speeds v>c... but existence of negative mass is only hypothesized (not that antimatter has positive mass and positive energy consistence). Even negative energy is kinda hazy concept... Tachyons, IIRC, should have negative mass if they exist.

Anyway, this pretty much means that since neutrinos experience time and thus move at velocity v<c, they have rest mass, albeit very small, but existent nevertheless.


As to why photons seem to be affected by gravity is not quite as straightforward as it might seem. Photons, in fact, are not affected by gravity. Strictly interpreted, mass is not affected by gravity either because in general relativity, gravity is an apparent force.

In general relativity, mass affects the space-time continuum by applying tension to it and causing it's metrics to change. Or actually, it's energy that affects the space-time, but relative energy forms like kinetic energy and the energy of photon do not sum up onto the apparent gravitational interaction between objects, so it's accurate enough to say that it's the (rest) mass that affects the curvature as far as gravitational effects are considered... And please don't ask me to write the energy tensor metrics here, I can't. I basically know what happens but I can't use the maths... yet.

Anyhow, mass curves space-time. Photons move on straight line. Straight (geodetic) line in non-euclidian, distorted space time appears to us as curved. That's how and why photons seem to be affected by gravity.

Objects with mass, though, interact with each other using the space-time as a medium, which causes them to move in seemingly non-geodetic trajectories compared to the routes of photons.

MY interpretation is that space-time tension metrics is also what causes inertia to exist, since accelerating objects form an asymmetric distortion field, which kinda causes an accelerating object to experience resistance to the acceleration... it also means that changing the tension of local space-time takes and stores energy (kinetic energy) and offers quite interesting implications considering light speed limit being a result of the fact that gravitational radiation - ie. the propagation velocity of changes in space-time curvature - is limited to c, in which case a ship trying to accelerate to light speed would generate an extremely asymmetric gravity field as seen from a static observation point... not unlike the sound barrier.

It wouldn't be observable by the ship's travelers, but static observers on the original inertial frame of the space ship would likely notice how the ship's apparent acceleration would approach zero, as the ship would be closer and closer to the front end of the distortion.

Unlike in the case of sound barrier, though, it's not seemingly possibly to exceed the signal speed and create a shockwave instead of just an asymmetric distortion field, since it would require getting detached from the space-time continuum. The concept of being outside space and time is, of course, pretty outlandish and completely hypothetical in current physics but hey, who knows? Any sufficiently advanced technology and so on...


Ah, the monthly physics debate quota is filling... ;)


Quote from: IceyJones
nevertheless fact is, that science does not function with revolutions. it envolves, it grows on prooven theories......each new theory must be part of the new one. the new one has to describe also the old one....

Did you mean that "each old theory must be part of the new one"?

That is, in fact, not actually required. True, in most recent "evolution" step from classical physics to modern physics it happened, because goth Newtonian mechanics and Maxwell's electrodynamics are in fact preserved in general relativity and quantum physics respectively, as special cases - in GR, when 0<v<<<c, Newtonian physics still holds; in quantum physics, most Maxwell's laws still apply with the exception of photons being handled as quanta instead of continuum of radiation and other interesting stuff like that.

However, if you consider the statement "each old theory must be part of the new on" it simply doesn't hold water. There are numerous old theories that have been abandoned because they were not replaced by more accurate theory, but because they were proven untrue. Heavier objects falling faster than lighter comes to mind, as well as geocentric models of universe. Or elements being fire, water, earth and air.

It is still possible (however unlikely) that the physics as we know it has gotten something completely wrong and needs a revision of the same magnitude as change from fire, water, earth and air to the current table of elements. Most likely the current models are pretty close to what's actually happening because they are accurate to the extreme, but it's still always a possibility that is inherent in positivism...


Quote
means, accepted and PROVEN rules of physics cannot be broken, even if we find out everything i.e. about the duality of light, etc and so maybe someday a flaw to higher speeds than light. but also in future it only can be a way around this "speed"limit, we will never break through.....the only possibility i can imagine would be a re-routing through another dimension, but never a bending of spacetime (warp)....the energy consumption is too huge.....

Acceptance and being "proven" rule of physics has nothing to do with being "truth" in physics. That's similar logic as "5 billion flies can't be wrong - manure tastes and smells good!"

The truth in physics means the highest level of accuracy possible to reach in depicting the inner workings of nature. I'd even go as far as saying that there are no proven rules of physics, only the set of most accurate currently available combination of theories and postulations.

I agree with you on that it would be very unlikely for our current knowledge of physics to be as accurate as it is while having major misconceptions, so with highest probability the current models will remain as special cases of future theories. However, stating this as a certain fact is against all the basic principles of science, so on a fundamental level I have to disagree. :p
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