Author Topic: Will B5 become reality!?!  (Read 10558 times)

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Offline IceyJones

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
i see, the language barrier struck again. i´m not able to discuss here on the same level, because many vocabulary is missing on my side....lets talk about paper machines pls :o))

but fact is, that acutal theories are discribing something. many physicians are making trials in order to proove them, or destroy them. but fact is, that in the macro-cosmos, this one:
E=mc2

is prooven in ALL trials made so far. so the results of this basic formula must be integrated in a new theory (or the new theory must lead to the same results as the above one) until someone comes and prooves with a new trial, that this formula is WRONG.....

heck....don´t know how to explain it....i hope you get what i mean....

a pity is, that einsteins formula does not work in micro-cosmos....here quantum physics apply......

so all are looking for the great, combined theory.....

 

Offline chief1983

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
One of the biggest problems with relativistic travel is that while a trip may seem short to you, as you approach the speed of light in the frame of reference that includes Earth and the destination, you would appear to experience much slower time to an observer in that frame.  So you wouldn't necessarily appear to be going fast, but time for you would appear to be going slower.  When returning to earth, more time will have passed there it would seem, and so everyone would be much older.  At very relativistic speeds this practically eliminates the usefulness of this method of travel.  If I remember my physics correctly anyway, it's been a couple years.
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Offline Wobble73

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Who says nothing travels faster than light? Maybe we just can't detect anything that travels faster than light simply because it travels faster than light. Who knows maybe dark matter or dark energy travel faster than light (which would be why they are dark??)

Just a thought, I'm no physicist!
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Quote
One of the biggest problems with relativistic travel is that while a trip may seem short to you, as you approach the speed of light in the frame of reference that includes Earth and the destination, you would appear to experience much slower time to an observer in that frame.  So you wouldn't necessarily appear to be going fast, but time for you would appear to be going slower.  When returning to earth, more time will have passed there it would seem, and so everyone would be much older.  At very relativistic speeds this practically eliminates the usefulness of this method of travel.  If I remember my physics correctly anyway, it's been a couple years.

Well, it's kinda two-edged sword.

For example, take Alpha Centauri. It's about 4.365 light years from Sol system. If we had a ship that moved there at, say, 0.95c average velocity, that means it would get there in about four years and 218 days (1678 days) Earth time.

However, due to time dilatation (or Lorentz-contraction, depends which way you want to view it), the time passed inside the ship would only be about 524 days. Or, from the perspective of the ship, they would observe the distance from Sol to Alpha Centauri being shortened due to Lorentz-contraction.

For the travelers, this is extremely convenient in scale of interstellar travel; for those left behind, not so much. It would obviously mean that a longer interstellar trip in normal space will never be a decision lightly taken, as it will effectively alienate travelers from those left behind due to time difference, and further more the time consumed in the ship will still be a lot, especially for reaching star systems further than Alpha Centauri.


Also, in the scale of galaxy-wide travels, the end of the universe will be upon the travelers much faster than for those left behind. If true, widespread interstellar travel is ever to become popular, some kind of FTL travel will need to be deviced. Whether or not it's possible at all, remains to be seen I guess. But I've said this before - for any sentient life form it's either stars or bust. For us, we'll need to have left Earth in about half a billion years as the Sun will evaporate the oceans from Earth by then. Then it's either settling on Mars and possibly moons of Jupiter and Saturn for a while, but eventually those alternatives will be closed as well and the Sol system will be literally wasted.

In a way it's even comforting to know that either human race and terran life as we know it will cease to be or rise to travel amongst the stars. And knowing the human race, we'll very likely at least try, and even if it fails, it will be the most scifiest time in the existence of human race.

Excluding perhaps the time when we figure out a way to stop the universe from dying, but that'll be later. A lot later. :p
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Hmmmm...  It seems to me that fighting Entropy would be like trying to open a box you are locked inside. But, as you say, who knows what the next Billion years has in store :)

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
At very relativistic speeds this practically eliminates the usefulness of this method of travel.

Only if you plan on coming back. :p

If all you want to do is establish independent colonies on other planets it doesn't really matter as you can still talk by radio or message laser.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
but fact is, that acutal theories are discribing something. many physicians are making trials in order to proove them, or destroy them. but fact is, that in the macro-cosmos, this one:
E=mc2 is prooven in ALL trials made so far.

But how do you test for something you can't even describe, much less duplicate? There are things out there we can't work with using physics as we know it because they're just totally unrecognizeable. If you don't believe me, go ask a physicist about singularities, or why we can describe things up to just short of the actual Big Bang (we're still off it by some small but very crucial fraction of a second). Anything that can happen once can happen more then once. True, we have no idea how to possibly make any of the exception-generating things work for us, but they're out there. They prove it can be done.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Hmmmm...  It seems to me that fighting Entropy would be like trying to open a box you are locked inside. But, as you say, who knows what the next Billion years has in store :)

Long live the Space Race. :lol:


Only if you plan on coming back. :p

If all you want to do is establish independent colonies on other planets it doesn't really matter as you can still talk by radio or message laser.


...yeah.

Ping would be pretty horrible, though. At any rate, we need to figure out FTL transmission first so that our colonies in Sol system can play BtRL multiplayer with Earth peeps and each other. ;7
« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 01:04:22 pm by Herra Tohtori »
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Offline IceyJones

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
But how do you test for something you can't even describe, much less duplicate? There are things out there we can't work with using physics as we know it because they're just totally unrecognizeable. If you don't believe me, go ask a physicist about singularities, or why we can describe things up to just short of the actual Big Bang (we're still off it by some small but very crucial fraction of a second). Anything that can happen once can happen more then once. True, we have no idea how to possibly make any of the exception-generating things work for us, but they're out there. They prove it can be done.

we can roughly....with quantum physics. problem is, that we have no clue how to make one theory as quantum physics decline the existance of singularities iirc.......but the great hope is this, in order to make the next step:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider

Who says nothing travels faster than light? Maybe we just can't detect anything that travels faster than light simply because it travels faster than light. Who knows maybe dark matter or dark energy travel faster than light (which would be why they are dark??)

might be, but very unlikely. because IF WE ARE RIGHT SO FAR with our theories (and no trial gave us a hint so far, that we are wrong), this CANNOT BE!

 
Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Holy moly, that's quite a bit of technobabble on that Wiki page!
Other than that, I'm proud it's being built in switzerland ;7
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
me neither, so we should leave this discussion to the more specialized peoples and institutes out there.
we all here can only argue with half knowledge......
...

Dude, if I could clean the Internet of that... it would be a wasteland ;)

 
 

Offline Mika

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Ah, the monthly Physics thread.

I have a couple of comments about this, so bear the horrible quote list.

Quote
NO.

Physical Laws are un-break-able and un-bend-able. They CAN NOT be modified.

As others pointed out, Physical Laws are only human invention, and model the nature to a certain degree. Other than that, I would advise caution when using words like "never", "cannot", etc. in the Physics context.

Quote
Usually proposed options include making the way between A and B shorter (warp drive, which actually has somewhat of a sound theoretical basis already, the problem is manipulating space-time continuum...), or creating a shorter alternative route between A and B (wormhole, or Einstein-Rosen bridge).

For some reason I always get the feeling that the scientists researching these topics are hardcore sci-fi show fans. I have said it before here, but there are problems to model certain everyday things, like the interaction between light and in some cases, even thermal distributions. With background like this, expanding up to the Universum-scale at this point should cause shuddering in the scientific community. Yeah, I don't have anything to back this up but the common sense. If liquid form water in -4 degrees of Celsius turning to ice in a split-second cannot be modelled, what is the probability of getting things right in the Universum-scale? Anyways, back to business.

Quote
Not impossible...just extremely difficult to the extreme.  Some mathematicians and physicists calculated out what it would take to warp space time and jump from one location to another.  Its doable...just needs allot of power.

Add engineers to that equation and then you'll see we are even further away. I have had some funny discussions with colleagues specialized in engineering about the requirements of the theoretical physicists; for example extremely dense matter with no mass (yes, this was once required).

Quote
Trying to flyl at the speed of light, you're own mass would kill you LONG before you reached it...now, if you somehow managed to nullify your mass (handwavium) then flying at the speed of light might actually be possible.

As Herra already said, this is a misconception. If you measure your mass inside the rocket that goes ~c (with no acceleration), it will be the same that you measured on Earth. But since I time by time tend to understand what people not-so-involved with Physics, I think you are meaning the effects of that rocket smashing to a extremely thick wall of lead. There you would see that the momentum that deformed the wall could be calculated from the old p=mv (this is a simplification of matters, I know), except this time mass should be modified with the formula Herra put up. For a person struck by a relativistic bullet, he would report getting hit by massive amounts of energy in any case, even though the mass of the bullet would be small.

Quote
For example, it's still not quite clear to me if Lorentz-contraction of relative co-ordinates is an observation or a real phenomenon... and, indeed, what is the difference between observation and reality. After all, don't we define reality by observations? Even the concept of simultaneity in relativity is heavily connected to observations due to signal speed limit of c - which can be interpreted, in a way, so that what you see on the night sky is simultaneous to this co-ordinate system. Or you could interpret our time as global time and make the distance-time corrections to each star's relative time to us.

For me, the only way to get out of that mess was to think that for humans there is no such thing as reality. Only observations in certain reference frames. The length of the metre in a rocket doing 0.99c is the simply the length of the metre. Some idiot is of course measuring that stick outside of the rocket in his own reference frame and measures that the length of that stick is less than one meter. Both are equally valid results. But here we assumed before hand that we that the length of the stick was one meter in some universal, absolutely true  coordinate system, which doesn't exist, one of the prequisites of Special Relativity! This is probably one of the reasons Church objected to the relativity first since it seems to destroy the concept of God. The Lorentz transformations are simply coordinate system changes between frames, nothing more on that. Everything is relative! Or at least this is how I understand it.

Quote
One can see clearly in it why one can't go faster than light - the root can't be a negative number! Which means the (v/c)^2 can't be bigger than 1, which čeads to the conclusion that v < c

And at this point it doesn't take long for some Mathematician to point out the flaws in here. The sqrt-function can be defined for the complex numbers and thus v can be greater than c. The mathematics don't prevent it. Only observed world has a lack of FTL-objects. Unfortunately FTL travelling in our current world would also cause some difficulties with causality. Because causality is so much incorporated in humans, most of the Physicists would like to accept the spacetime wrapping as a way to go faster, rather than break the causality. Some times I wonder what funny surprises are there with the tachyons, if you cannot connect them to incidents, how can you measure them at the first place?

Quote
And please don't ask me to write the energy tensor metrics here, I can't. I basically know what happens but I can't use the maths... yet.

Quitter.

Here we have another interesting question: what exactly is space-time? It is a four-dimensional quantity with three space-like components (the world we observe) and time for the temporal-like component. But what is it, when you get to the bottom of the things?

Quote
However, if you consider the statement "each old theory must be part of the new on" it simply doesn't hold water. There are numerous old theories that have been abandoned because they were not replaced by more accurate theory, but because they were proven untrue. Heavier objects falling faster than lighter comes to mind, as well as geocentric models of universe. Or elements being fire, water, earth and air.

Careful with the interpretations of the old world. In most cases, the heavier object indeed falls faster than the lighter one, since the friction caused by air has to be taken account. That is an observation that unfortunately is true to certain amount. Some poindexter Galilei went out and dropped different iron balls(?) on the ground, demonstrating that the falling time is the same for both of them. Unfortunately, he didn't report results with a feather. If there is air involved, the feather would indeed take lots more time to hit the deck so to say. Of course, most people will now understand that air friction and gravity are separate effects, but during those times it might not have been so, and in practical life it was not necessary to separate them.

Geocentric model, well, that is pretty much what church said and if you didn't like it you lost your head. Then the elements fire, water, earth and air, well, there are some interesting medical things coming from the old element theories that govern the functions of organs inside human body. Most of that stuff is quite interesting actually, since as far as I know it is based on experiments done on humans...

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That's similar logic as "5 billion flies can't be wrong - manure tastes and smells good!"

Well if 5 billion flies do that, then it is probably so for the flies. For humans, maybe not.

Quote
Also, in the scale of galaxy-wide travels, the end of the universe will be upon the travelers much faster than for those left behind.

And then there is a possibility that the expansion speed of the universe approaches c. Which would cause some trouble in returning back to home.

Quote
If you don't believe me, go ask a physicist about singularities, or why we can describe things up to just short of the actual Big Bang (we're still off it by some small but very crucial fraction of a second).

Personally I have some difficulties in believing this stuff. It is too far-fetched for my tastes and due to the difficulties in reversing the flow of time, it will be quite difficult to know how far back does that stuff exactly hold. It is an interesting research topic since this is quite difficult to verify experimentally, but still lots of money can be spent there.

For something easier task first, how did Sun (as we know it) form? I recall it was stated that it is probably a remnant of some supernova or a nova, but where are those blown-up stars now? And, what causes the sun-spots? Then there is a thing about the emitted energy of the sun, it increases within time to till certain event in the far future. Before there was less irradiance on the surface of the Earth, but the temperature levels were higher. I would be a little more optimistic about the Big Bang stuff if they replied a little bit more about the sun first.

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Offline Kosh

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Quote
However, due to time dilatation (or Lorentz-contraction, depends which way you want to view it), the time passed inside the ship would only be about 524 days. Or, from the perspective of the ship, they would observe the distance from Sol to Alpha Centauri being shortened due to Lorentz-contraction.


Is there any way to counter this effect so the same amount of time that passed inside the ship will pass outside of it (ie, so that 524 day trip to Alpha Centauri would actually take 524 days inside and outside)?
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Offline IceyJones

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Quote
Before there was less irradiance on the surface of the Earth, but the temperature levels were higher

thats because of the much higher content of greenhouse gases in the athmosphere in the past.....

Quote
I recall it was stated that it is probably a remnant of some supernova or a nova, but where are those blown-up stars now?

easy to answer:
the star-remnants we are formed of were the product of so called hypernovas as the first and second-generation stars were HUGE! only few of them form also today (factor 100 times the sun and bigger). the remnant of such a star is -as far as we know- a stellar singularity. these we are not able to detect directly so far. thats all.....

Quote
what causes the sun-spots?

why are you asking this really easy things here!? magnetic fields of course....


Quote
Is there any way to counter this effect so the same amount of time that passed inside the ship will pass outside of it
also easy: NO


and btw: real sad that you do not speak german. then you could watch this:
http://www.br-online.de/br-alpha/alpha-centauri/index.xml
there a prof of physics explains VERY easy the complex things out there and how science work in general. great stuff!
unfortunately the archive of the approx. 200 files is down at the moment, as they are refurbishing it...
« Last Edit: March 13, 2008, 02:22:08 am by IceyJones »

 

Offline Ashrak

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
sunspots magnetic fields  :wtf: thought it was slightly colder collections of gas that happen due to the random movement of the stars surface gasses
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Offline IceyJones

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
 :eek2: think about your opinion......if you are right, why is there a sunspot cycle every 11 years?!

in truth its the depoling magnetic field of the sun......
the magnetic fields are causing a disturbance in the convection of the hot gases to the surface and therefore it is approx. 1000-2000°C colder than the surounding area. THATS a sunspot.....

look here:


and here:
http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/sun/atmosphere/sunspot_magnetism.html

« Last Edit: March 13, 2008, 03:44:20 am by IceyJones »

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Quote
also easy: NO


No as in there is no way to do that now or no as in it can never ever be done?
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline IceyJones

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
no, as it never can be done, because its nature......relativistic effects are nature......thats all.....

 

Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Hey look im not a math or phisics student or something but i happen to believe really strong that the part where Einstein laid out the basic rules and limitations regarding e=mc2 is wrong. From what i understood noone has actualy demonstrated in a real life experiment that the theori is correct.  They are all just asumptions and best guess . And well until someone actualy shows me that it is imposible to reach the speed of light and beyond using real life devices i dont believe it. 

This may sound stupid to most of you guis but quantum phisics from what i could read about seems to be shattering a lot of pshisical laws and limitations that everyone believed to be imposible. So my thinking is wait a while and then lets try and see if things are really that imposible.
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