Author Topic: Will B5 become reality!?!  (Read 10505 times)

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Offline IceyJones

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
sorry alpha, but its just WRONG what you say....

the results of einsteins therm is OBSERVED and MEASURED in countless trials scientists made....

furthermore this therm is the reason of our life.....i.e. the energy-production of the sun is based on that principle.....furthermore we can observe the bending of light during a sun eclipse very precisely.....of course it still a theory and no rule, but until we do not find any hint, that it is wrong with its predictions, it is the accepted therory.....

here the balbefish-translation of a german article about one of the latest trials made:
CLICK HERE

« Last Edit: March 13, 2008, 07:26:19 am by IceyJones »

 
Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Is there any way to counter this effect so the same amount of time that passed inside the ship will pass outside of it (ie, so that 524 day trip to Alpha Centauri would actually take 524 days inside and outside)?

Sure.  Stick to slow subrelativistic velocities and time dialation isn't a concern at all.   :P
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Offline chief1983

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Yeah, there's no way to do it with relativistic travel, that's why they've been saying we would need some form of FTL travel.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Quote
the results of einsteins therm is OBSERVED and MEASURED in countless trials scientists made....

Pretty much, yeah. AFAIK all aspects of special relativity have been confirmed in macroscopic scale. Like the non-linear increase of momentum as function of velocity, time dilatation and the energy-mass equivalence Some aspects of general relativity. The one thing subject to debate is the assumption that the speed of light in vacuum is constant everywhere and always, but that assumption has firm roots in Maxwell's electrodynamics that simply say there can be no frozen electromagnetic wave motion, which implies that one can not move at the same velocity as a photon does, which implies that speed of light is constant to all observers and so on...

Some aspects of general relativity have not been confirmed by direct observation (graviation radiation hasn't been successfully detected - yet - and the part where mass forms singularities is debatable at best since by definition, things behind event horizon can't be observed by normal means) but most of the theory corresponds to the observed reality so well that the rest of the implications are plausible and can be considered probable. The most problematic thing about general relativity is, like Mika pointed out previously, the exact nature of space-time continuum and the way energy/mass interacts with it.*

What comes to quantum electrodynamics and quantum chromodynamics, they are the most accurate descriptions of matter and all the interactions save gravity, and they work to insane accuracy. The basics behind some quantum effects are subject to interpretation, though - there are two major schools on interpreting the statistical nature of quantum phenomena: The Copenhagen interpretation, and the multiverse interpretation.

The Copenhagen interpretation sees particles as wave forms that can interfere with themselves and define the probability of the particle being detected at any given location. In for example basic interference experiment, the single particle's waveform passes through both holes and forms an interference pattern on itself, and the detection of the particle becomes more probable on certain parts of the detector, resulting in interference pattern. Whenever a particle is observed at location XYZT, the waveform of the particle ceases to exist (or collapses) partially or entirely. In case of photons, entirely; in case of particles that aren't destroyed upon observation, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle prevents the possibility of aquiring the knowledge of particles' location and momentum at arbitrary accuracy, so the particles' waveforms never collapse completely...

The multiverse interpretation (or many-worlds interpretation as it's known in Wikipedia) considers the interference (among other phenomena) to be caused by the particles interfering with their corresponding particles in parallel universes that happen ever so slightly differently. While it sounds slightly more outlandish at first impression, recent experiments seem to suggest that this interpretation is, in fact, the more accurate and probable (and explains more things somewhat better) than the Copenhagen interpretation... :shaking:

However, the question of whether these models actually depict what happens in reality(ies) or just offer interpretations for the models can be considered irrelevant in physics.


*space-time continuum is rather interesting concept when you can visualize what happens when the geometry changes from euclidian to non-euclidian.

The terms that general relativity uses to calculate the effects of mass and energy to space time speak for themselves - energy tensor implies that energy causes some kind of tension to change the geometry of space-time. From this it can be deduced that space-time has a native, or "zero-tension" state to which the tension caused by mass and energy can be compared. Most likely, this would be the euclidian state of space-time - three straight lines of infinite length can be placed perpendicular to each other in euclidian space-time, and they stay perpendicular for their entire length. As far as time goes, it passes the fastest in euclidian state of space-time.

When tension is applied to space, pretty much similar things happen as you apply tension to a stretchy surface. In case of a surface, it's area increases due to stretching. In case of space and time... the volume increases and speed of time decreases realtive to non-euclidian space. Of course, that's the case of positive curvature caused by the tension from positive energy/mass. Negative energy would likely cause negative curvature... which, strangely enough, would also increase the volume of the space locally.

In layman's terms, the tension applied to space and time essentially stretches each space axis and time axis, which creates more space and time.

As a result, if you for example take 1x1x1 metres big box on euclidian space, it's volume is exactly one cubic metre. However, if you take the same box close to a heavy object, you can fit more than thousand litres of water into the box because the slightly stretched time and space add some volume to the insides of the box.

This leads to extrelemy interesting questions such as "how much volume is inside a black hole's event horizon?" and "how long is the distance from event horizon's edge to the postulated singularity at the center point?"... and the answers are IMHO even more intersting. Personally, my intuition tells me that the answer to the latter question is rather simple - the distance is infinite. This can also be interpreted so that event horizons don't HAVE a center point... which, in turn, means that every point inside event horizon is equal in terms of being the center point. Which would kinda make singularities obsolete. If there's no center point, where would the matter accumulate into singularity? Where inside the horizon would the singularity be? As for the volume question... now that's a trickier one. Most likely finite, approaching some value depending on the total energy inside the horizon.

Also, as I told earlier, my intuition tells me that inertia is a direct result of the space-time's ability to stretch under tension, since tension implies that energy is needed and stored into changes of the space-time's state of geometry...


Also, my intuition is known to have been wrong. :p
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Offline Hellstryker

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Quote
the results of einsteins therm is OBSERVED and MEASURED in countless trials scientists made....

Pretty much, yeah. AFAIK all aspects of special relativity have been confirmed in macroscopic scale. Like the non-linear increase of momentum as function of velocity, time dilatation and the energy-mass equivalence Some aspects of general relativity. The one thing subject to debate is the assumption that the speed of light in vacuum is constant everywhere and always, but that assumption has firm roots in Maxwell's electrodynamics that simply say there can be no frozen electromagnetic wave motion, which implies that one can not move at the same velocity as a photon does, which implies that speed of light is constant to all observers and so on...

Some aspects of general relativity have not been confirmed by direct observation (graviation radiation hasn't been successfully detected - yet - and the part where mass forms singularities is debatable at best since by definition, things behind event horizon can't be observed by normal means) but most of the theory corresponds to the observed reality so well that the rest of the implications are plausible and can be considered probable. The most problematic thing about general relativity is, like Mika pointed out previously, the exact nature of space-time continuum and the way energy/mass interacts with it.*

What comes to quantum electrodynamics and quantum chromodynamics, they are the most accurate descriptions of matter and all the interactions save gravity, and they work to insane accuracy. The basics behind some quantum effects are subject to interpretation, though - there are two major schools on interpreting the statistical nature of quantum phenomena: The Copenhagen interpretation, and the multiverse interpretation.

The Copenhagen interpretation sees particles as wave forms that can interfere with themselves and define the probability of the particle being detected at any given location. In for example basic interference experiment, the single particle's waveform passes through both holes and forms an interference pattern on itself, and the detection of the particle becomes more probable on certain parts of the detector, resulting in interference pattern. Whenever a particle is observed at location XYZT, the waveform of the particle ceases to exist (or collapses) partially or entirely. In case of photons, entirely; in case of particles that aren't destroyed upon observation, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle prevents the possibility of aquiring the knowledge of particles' location and momentum at arbitrary accuracy, so the particles' waveforms never collapse completely...

The multiverse interpretation (or many-worlds interpretation as it's known in Wikipedia) considers the interference (among other phenomena) to be caused by the particles interfering with their corresponding particles in parallel universes that happen ever so slightly differently. While it sounds slightly more outlandish at first impression, recent experiments seem to suggest that this interpretation is, in fact, the more accurate and probable (and explains more things somewhat better) than the Copenhagen interpretation... :shaking:

However, the question of whether these models actually depict what happens in reality(ies) or just offer interpretations for the models can be considered irrelevant in physics.


*space-time continuum is rather interesting concept when you can visualize what happens when the geometry changes from euclidian to non-euclidian.

The terms that general relativity uses to calculate the effects of mass and energy to space time speak for themselves - energy tensor implies that energy causes some kind of tension to change the geometry of space-time. From this it can be deduced that space-time has a native, or "zero-tension" state to which the tension caused by mass and energy can be compared. Most likely, this would be the euclidian state of space-time - three straight lines of infinite length can be placed perpendicular to each other in euclidian space-time, and they stay perpendicular for their entire length. As far as time goes, it passes the fastest in euclidian state of space-time.

When tension is applied to space, pretty much similar things happen as you apply tension to a stretchy surface. In case of a surface, it's area increases due to stretching. In case of space and time... the volume increases and speed of time decreases realtive to non-euclidian space. Of course, that's the case of positive curvature caused by the tension from positive energy/mass. Negative energy would likely cause negative curvature... which, strangely enough, would also increase the volume of the space locally.

In layman's terms, the tension applied to space and time essentially stretches each space axis and time axis, which creates more space and time.

As a result, if you for example take 1x1x1 metres big box on euclidian space, it's volume is exactly one cubic metre. However, if you take the same box close to a heavy object, you can fit more than thousand litres of water into the box because the slightly stretched time and space add some volume to the insides of the box.

This leads to extrelemy interesting questions such as "how much volume is inside a black hole's event horizon?" and "how long is the distance from event horizon's edge to the postulated singularity at the center point?"... and the answers are IMHO even more intersting. Personally, my intuition tells me that the answer to the latter question is rather simple - the distance is infinite. This can also be interpreted so that event horizons don't HAVE a center point... which, in turn, means that every point inside event horizon is equal in terms of being the center point. Which would kinda make singularities obsolete. If there's no center point, where would the matter accumulate into singularity? Where inside the horizon would the singularity be? As for the volume question... now that's a trickier one. Most likely finite, approaching some value depending on the total energy inside the horizon.

Also, as I told earlier, my intuition tells me that inertia is a direct result of the space-time's ability to stretch under tension, since tension implies that energy is needed and stored into changes of the space-time's state of geometry...


Also, my intuition is known to have been wrong. :p

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Offline IceyJones

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
This leads to extrelemy interesting questions such as "how much volume is inside a black hole's event horizon?" and "how long is the distance from event horizon's edge to the postulated singularity at the center point?"... and the answers are IMHO even more intersting. Personally, my intuition tells me that the answer to the latter question is rather simple - the distance is infinite. This can also be interpreted so that event horizons don't HAVE a center point... which, in turn, means that every point inside event horizon is equal in terms of being the center point. Which would kinda make singularities obsolete. If there's no center point, where would the matter accumulate into singularity? Where inside the horizon would the singularity be? As for the volume question... now that's a trickier one. Most likely finite, approaching some value depending on the total energy inside the horizon.

i also had these kind of thoughts. what is, when u are inside a singularity. you would not be able to determine, where is the centre of it....
so this led myself to the thought:
what is, if we ARE inside a singularity. the whole universi is one singularity. we are not able to pinpoint the centre of our universe, because there is none. every object around us excapes with the same velocity at each distance we look at.....

what is, if every black hole is new universe inside the universe it was made.....

but such thoughts are again si-fi because noone can proof them ;)

 

Offline Ashrak

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
laws of nature for THIS dimension, if there are multiple dimensions whose to say one of them dosent have a c > c current?
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Offline Topgun

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
ya know, there is always the multiverse. the only problem is that the universe you pop into isn't exactly the same one you came from.

 
Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
i also had these kind of thoughts. what is, when u are inside a singularity. you would not be able to determine, where is the centre of it....
so this led myself to the thought:
what is, if we ARE inside a singularity. the whole universi is one singularity. we are not able to pinpoint the centre of our universe, because there is none. every object around us excapes with the same velocity at each distance we look at.....

what is, if every black hole is new universe inside the universe it was made.....

but such thoughts are again si-fi because noone can proof them ;)

You are not the first person I've heard suggest this, and I've been wondering about it myself a lot lately.  There was a recent article in Scientific American that pointed out that what with the expansion of the universe continuing to accelerate, there will come a time when the inhabitants of this galaxy will be completely unable to see any other galaxies because the universe will have expanded to the point where they are too far away to ever be seen.  The crux of the arguement is that current observations suggest there is a very simple relationship to how fast objects in space are moving away from us.  The velocity of the object is directly proportional to its distance from us.  So, objects that are farther away are moving away from us faster than objects closer to us.  The practical upshot is that the expansion of the universe does not appear to be limited to c, so it is possible for objects to receed so far from us that we will never be able to see them.  It is very likely that some parts of the universe already have.

Eventually, it will get to the point where everything that wasn't close enough to be gravitationally tied to our galaxy will recede so far we cannot see it at all.  The article termed this limited sight as an "event horizon," and the term does fit.  It is like the universe is surrounded by a gigantic singularity that, rather than being a single point in the middle, is surounding the entire universe, causing runaway expansion.  Well...?  Is that really any more far fetched than any other explanation for inflation?  Could we be inside a singularity ourselves?
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
I think you're reading too much into the use of the term 'event horizon'. There's no singularity involved, and certainly no suggestion of a singularity 'surrounding the entire universe'.

A singularity is a place where physical law breaks down. We understand the physical laws of the universe at large pretty well.

As for discussion of other dimensions where the speed of light is greater -- other dimensions can be (and are) described mathematically, and there's nothing yet to suggest that C is variant. Similarly, other universes in a hypothetical multiverse have also been mathematically described, and they would be bound by much the same physical laws.

 

Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Well i never expected to be correct anyway . The only reason why i kinda refuse to believe that the theory must be wrong somewhere is because it sets a boundry for humans that at least for now we can not overcome. And well i just refuse to accept that.

I mean i refuse to accept that there is such a barrier that would prove insurmountable to us humans. There is almost nothing we cant do if we have the will and the way.

So for now im just gooing to say there has yet to be invented the fizics and math that alows us humans to travel at FTL speeds. And i remain optimistic about the fact that sometime in this century humans might discover a way to travel at FTL speeds. Yeah i know how this sounds but considering the quantum leaps in tech. these days and computing power it is not irational for me to actualy hope for such a thing.
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Offline Hellstryker

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Well i never expected to be correct anyway . The only reason why i kinda refuse to believe that the theory must be wrong somewhere is because it sets a boundry for humans that at least for now we can not overcome. And well i just refuse to accept that.

I mean i refuse to accept that there is such a barrier that would prove insurmountable to us humans. There is almost nothing we cant do if we have the will and the way.

So for now im just gooing to say there has yet to be invented the fizics and math that alows us humans to travel at FTL speeds. And i remain optimistic about the fact that sometime in this century humans might discover a way to travel at FTL speeds. Yeah i know how this sounds but considering the quantum leaps in tech. these days and computing power it is not irational for me to actualy hope for such a thing.

QFT, Although we'll never know, because it will happen in the depths of some top secret goverment facility :\

 

Offline AlphaOne

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
who knows maybe they spill the beans and the world finds out. OR perhaps they leave thyr top secret documents on bench or library or something. We might just get lucky you know. also who say they havent already done it in some rudimentary way and we just havent been told before because they are building uber ships of doom on mars or something???

Dont look at me like that im not a retard im just mentaly inconsistent.
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Offline IceyJones

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
oh please....no conspiracy-**** here pls.....don´t take "stargate" to serious ;)

of course we can HOPE to find such a FTL-engine, but if i should bet money on it, i would choose the other side.....

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
I believe there is only one constant trought all that exist (all universes) - math.
If it exists, it can be counted (since it's there and has SOME properties).
1+1=2 everywhere.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
I agree with Trashman on this point. Although technically, when adding velocities, 1 + 1 = slightly less than two...relativity does funny things.

Another point that worries me regarding event horizons -- what if we can't access the information we need to understand the universe? What if it's already lost?

As people have mentioned, in a long while we'll be unable to see light from other galaxies, and we'll believe our galaxy is the entire universe -- since there'll be no way to observe, reach, or interact with others. And we'll be perfectly right to think so.

What if we're already in that situation regarding...something else? Some vital clue? Maybe human knowledge is actually, physically limited.

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Quote
oh please....no conspiracy-**** here pls....

Short of totally cracking the military networks it is hard to say what they are hiding.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
Gary McKinnon, also known as Solo, (born in Glasgow in 1966) is a British hacker accused by the United States of perpetrating the "biggest military computer hack of all time.

(...)

The computer networks he is accused of cracking include networks owned by NASA (although these were not password protected), the US Army, US Navy, Department of Defense, and the US Air Force.

(...)

McKinnon remained at liberty without restriction for three years until June 2005 (after the UK had implemented a new extradition treaty with the US [which the US congress has not ratified]) when he became subject to bail conditions including a requirement to sign in at his local police station every evening, and to remain at his home address at night. In addition he was banned from using a computer with access to the Internet.

(...)
McKinnon has admitted in many public statements to unauthorised access of computer systems in the United States including those mentioned in the United States indictment. He claims his motivation, drawn from a statement made before the Washington Press Club on May 9, 2001 by the "The Disclosure Project", was to find evidence of UFOs, antigravity technology, and the government suppression of "Free Energy", all of which he claims to have proven through his actions.

In his interview with the BBC he also claimed that "The Disclosure Project" says there is "extra-terrestrial in origin and [they've] captured spacecraft and reverse engineered it." He also claimed to have downloaded a low-resolution image of "something not man-made" and "cigar shaped" floating above the northern hemisphere. He said that unfortunately he did not manage to get a screenshot or recording of the image because he was "bedazzled" to see the image, could not remember the capture function in the software RemotelyAnywhere, and that he was "cut off" from his connection.

Horrible fate bolded and increased in size.

My own interpretation is that he's just good enough to get into the systems but stupid enough to get caught and is trying to gain media attention to save him from extradiction and being stuffed into Gitmo.

Of course, it would be AWSOME if it were real. :D


EDIT: LOL WUT part coloured red. :lol: I mean, wtf...?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2008, 10:14:52 am by Herra Tohtori »
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Offline Shade

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
That truely is a horrible fate. I mean, I'll take prison should I ever do something to deserve it, but dammit, I need my internet!
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Will B5 become reality!?!
We all do...we all do





Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!